Young Bird Sickness

[Guest darren cantrill]

Having been back in the sport for a couple of years I have seen the illness connected to young birds change dramatically I've heard people say it's a virus a combination of virus and fungus that it's stress related i have listened to a lot of good theories and can see people's point of view but I can only go on what I see for myself in my own loft and I did even think maybe it's something as simple as mosies laying eggs in the water or slugs or snails it all had me scratching my head but what I'm absolutely certain of is what I've observed in my pen and I know we all do things slightly differently but one thing we all do is feed and supply our birds with grit and minerals and my theory is this connection significant is the corn we feed today deficient in something is the grit the problem I have a section that haven't been out they ain't seen a peregrine they have no stress issues yet they got ill and the only common factor was the food and grit one died within 24 hours two others went poorly but survived the other 5 just looked a bit off and had runny droppings and held corn they ate the same corn as the other section that started spewing corn and the same grit the youngsters that didn't get as much protein were fine the other thing I have noticed is the youngsters bred from the birds who survived a pmv outbreak in our pen last year ain't had a touch of illness up till now and have won and won well I vaccinated everything on the same day this year I use primula when ever the droppings go wrong and I use a microscope for canker cocci and worms the rest I leave to the vet if they say we have an issue I treat with prescribed medication I'd like some feed back on what you think the contributing factors are anything you think is connected to the dreaded ybs even if it is a punt or totally different to the way everybody else is thinking cause next year I'm going to set the young birds up in 3 sections 1 will be open hole just fresh water and local sourced corn grit etc 2 will be as commercial as it can be corn will be off the shelf and the drinker will contain as much go faster crap as I can afford and I will treat systematically for everything 3rd section will be exactly as I have done so far this year please give me your input how you rear youngsters be honest about illness losses etc and I will from next year give you a weekly account of what goes on in the three lofts

[andy Burgess]

will look forward to reading your findings next year . the very best of luck to you .

[yeboah]

Very Good Post Darren

I Like you have also made many observation s which I will reply to unfortunately not at present as I was out at a party till the early hours and have our nieces sons christening at church in just over an hour of out to the doos

As they say here in Scotland I have a Heed like Peterheed at present

[REDCHEQHEN]

IMO A lot has to do with your vicinity

I honestly have never had young bird sickness

I fly behind the house (and the majority of YBS sufferers in my club are on the allotments - and it is the same ones EVERY year - I am one and a half miles from allotments)

 

One of the allotment flyers who had YBS every year used cider vinegar in the water and never had YBS that year (he has moved 200 miles away now)

 

However - is it just 'inbred' in the breeding stock?

Do you vaccinate your stock birds for PMV every year? (I do)

 

I personally use Osmonds Enviroboost in the water on return from a race

 

I do not think it has anything to do with the feed

I go regularly to the vets - I gave up on my microscope as I rarely found anything wrong - and in other people's droppings I always picked up seeing fungal infections (which branched out before your very eyes...very interesting) and could often see that the gut bacteria was not balanced (perhaps more rod shaped ones than others - but could not diagnose any problem from that as I was not experienced enough)

[Roland]

I think it's about time some put some Garden Lime in the drinkers over night and placed before the birds next day. Heard the rubbish about Ecoli etc.- Beside if the loft stays dry then that won't be a problem. It is a sauce of calming.

My club and area have / had great results when done.

[William Reid]

Very interesting thread Darren . What medication did your vet prescribe for ybs.

[walterboswell59]

look forward to your findings m8 the feeding was something i thought about years ago as we are all now feeding 90 percent gm grain in this country as that is all they sell now and ive asked at grain merchants up and down the country and none could tell me they were 100 percent sure there was no gm grains in there mix myself and others have noticed the birds will not eat maple peas do the birds know something we dont food for thought

[Wiley]

look forward to your findings m8 the feeding was something i thought about years ago as we are all now feeding 90 percent gm grain in this country as that is all they sell now and ive asked at grain merchants up and down the country and none could tell me they were 100 percent sure there was no gm grains in there mix myself and others have noticed the birds will not eat maple peas do the birds know something we dont food for thought

 

Where are you getting your maples from Walter? My pigeons devour maples.

[walterboswell59]

Where are you getting your maples from Walter? My pigeons devour maples.

just in my mix wiley but from all diff feed stores and guys getting them from other places noticed same thing the only time they would eat them is when they were feeding ybs and i know this happens but it was strange to give them a mixture and the only grain they left was maple peas this has happened offten in my loft and others over the past few years and mine used to love them

ps but im now told by the grain merchants all maze in pigeon feed is gm unless stated on the bag and even then they cant garntee it as that is all the grain that is imported into britain now wheat is the same could this be part of our problem i dont know but there is something messing with our birds imune system thats for sure and maybe ours to who knows

Edited August 24, 2014 by walterboswell59

[peter pandy]

Perhaps we should all go back to feeding beans as I know the bean farmer always retains so much of his crop for sowing the following year so its definately G.M. FREE. Regarding maples I would assume all arable farmers would do likewise. Their could be a possibility in a wet harvest the grain has to go through driers to bring the moisture content down and diesel has been used instead of propane gas. Perhaps one of our farming friends on basics could enlighten us.

[maverick]

Youngbird Sickness is all over the world and there is only two things all fanciers do the same is feed and water so take your pick what one its coming from

[Guest darren cantrill]

Hi we had a severe outbreak of pmv last year and had to dispose of some very good pigeons so I vaccinate everything on the same day had to use oil based vaccine this year weren't my choice but was no water based available it knocked them about a little but I vaccinated wrong last year as you can read in earlier posts I try not to dwell on it as it nearly broke me but I learnt my lesson in answer to the young bird sickness treatment from the vet last year we used apralan and pichones this year the vet prescribed a treatment for chlamydia doxycycline based and nystatin on the corn we haven't had it as severe as most and maybe that is because what we all see are different illnesses we characterise under the banner ybs what I can only tell you is what I observe here in our lofts we have had 30 plus strays in this year we spray the boxes with virkon before they come in and clean and spray with virkon when they leave any youngster that doesn't make it back on the day from training or racing is quarantined till I am sure it is well normally 7 days I have 16 Petron boxes I use for this was supposed to be my section for young cocks lol they are on some knocked together perches !!!! Lol if a pigeon is ill we have a few choices we can make a decision we feel is best for the pigeon what is best for the pen or just leave it and see what happens and I don't advise the later I've already made that mistake I've made a lot and it is a learning curve to be competitive we need healthy fit pigeons and medication can work in harmony with nature it's when we abuse medication that we get problems and when we ignore health issues we get bigger problems we all have different management issues as we'll ventilation lack of sunlight some clean everyday some use deep litter some use a vet some just let nature take its course that's what we need to know I am part of the rpra and I'm thinking along the lines that we should employ a vet logistically it would be a nightmare to visit every loft but a sample handed over at Central making ie national events etc for a nominal fee would go along way to helping us find what our issues are health wise and the vet could collect that information and at the end of the year that information could be given back to us through the press regionally or by federation etc and you don't have to treat it just gives us the information we need to fight back against the health issues we are facing I don't want to race unhealthy pigeons I certainly don't want to give other people health issues when there birds mix with mine in the race pannier there is a connection with the illness we all suffer with our young birds and even if you don't observe it I'm sure some have suffered with it but there management keeps it at bay or the birds they breed from aren't prone to the illnesses others are but I'm sure what I have observed in my pen is something to do with the feed or grit please try to prove me wrong cause I ain't absolutely certain and as today someone phoned me we discussed ybs and he is sure it's a viralant canker strain another that it's a virus no wonder non of us are 100 per cent sure but a vet could test and let us know if what we are seeing the same illness

[jonl6280]

Stress in the YB brings it out

[Guest darren cantrill]

Stress in the YB brings it out

Hi yes I agree stress is something our young birds don't cope with but the youngsters I have in a section on their own have no reason to be stressed they are fed well they have ample room twenty plus perches to eight youngsters a six foot by six foot section in a well ventilated dry loft they ain't getting chased round the sky by birds of prey they ain't seen a basket and I have brothers and sisters that are exposed to all of the above and they didn't show any signs of illness I know that doesn't mean it's not there it just has me scratching my head as to why they would show signs of what I think is young bird sickness if you have had it please explain what stress you have had and to what degree the birds became ill best wishes darren

[Roland]

Stress in the YB brings it out

 

Garden Lime has a soothing anti stress property!

[Guest darren cantrill]

look forward to your findings m8 the feeding was something i thought about years ago as we are all now feeding 90 percent gm grain in this country as that is all they sell now and ive asked at grain merchants up and down the country and none could tell me they were 100 percent sure there was no gm grains in there mix myself and others have noticed the birds will not eat maple peas do the birds know something we dont food for thought

Hi Walter I'm tending to agree with what you thought years ago,my racing youngsters are on a low protein diet apart from the return from a race and the Sunday feed I top up with pellets that are 25 percent protein success corn from versalaga and bos pellet both made for pigeons the reason I do this is I read Owens post many months ago about the energy needed to digest corn on a pigeons return from a race and it made sense they don't particularly like the pellets at first but it's like with peanuts once they get a taste for them they go for it I do feed heavy with the youngsters and plenty of small fatty stuff the last two days but the youngsters that showed signs of illness weren't on the pellets and fatty seeds they are now and they seem great but it's totally against what I can buy off the shelf for the young birds I now feed everything in the pen with Marian's diet versalaga superstar and a 50/50mix of the pellets I said earlier and all seems fine the birds that are racing are winning and winning well returns haven't been bad it's very noticeable in my pen when the protein was high I had problems maybe it's just me

[Guest darren cantrill]

Garden Lime has a soothing anti stress property!

Hi Roland thanx for the reply I use lime but to only do the floors I've done less of it this year but you have jogged my memory I did use the hackers stuff for the floor this year and I did use it just before the youngsters got poorly I use my wheelie bin to disinfect everything I bleach it out and then dip and soak everything in disinfectant I've never used it as you have said though food for thought and thanx for your replybestwishes

[Guest darren cantrill]

Perhaps we should all go back to feeding beans as I know the bean farmer always retains so much of his crop for sowing the following year so its definately G.M. FREE. Regarding maples I would assume all arable farmers would do likewise. Their could be a possibility in a wet harvest the grain has to go through driers to bring the moisture content down and diesel has been used instead of propane gas. Perhaps one of our farming friends on basics could enlighten us.

Hi peter I have discussed this issue with a few friends who feed primarily beans and they both have had issues this year but there birds quickly recovered and no losses but one had a major issue last year and they both go where they can afford to go sometimes locally other times commercially I didn't know about the drying process and the issue we could have between the different methods the bigger corn merchants are buying out the smaller ones our choice and variety is there but I'm sure as with the horse meat issue when it's just a few major outlets providing the facilities to mix the corns etc if there was a contamination issue with one specific crop mould etc it would say it was maples go into all the different bags of corn in lower or higher content young bird mixes carrying more maples than old bird mixes I ain't just picking on maples I'm just using it as an example plus with most the world now able to ship crops from anywhere is it an issue with where the crop is grown this is an issue with bees around the world

[billt]

Hi lads, I thought I'd throw this in as my conditions are probably unique and may be of some use to your theories, I haven't raced since 1986 but have always had at least 40 birds, now about a 100 , We were vaccinating against PMV back then but I can honestly say I've never had PMV, I don't vaccinate now, and the only thing I know about YBS is what I read on here, I only race One Lofts so nothing comes back here, I also rarely see strays being remote, I'm on mains water and feed on Bucktons mixes plus the usual grits and minerals including Matrix, I think Walter is on the right lines thinking the link is regarding the PMV vaccination, Hope this is of some help. Bill

[walterboswell59]

heres another point to add to the confusion the guys that were told by vets to vaccinate there birds twice still got ybs ask the dutch lads these so called experts do not have a clue what it is or whats the cause and are taking our money under false pretenses if you or your birds are in contact with birds that have ybs you will get it to some degree no matter what you do or give them i also now think a lot depends on the age of the majority of your youngbird team at the time they are exposed to it as the older the youngbird the better it seems to handle it its your youngest birds that seem to take it the worse and is a killer for them but one thing i do do know if you vaccinate or not if you race or train with other birds you will get it some only get it mild and can shake it off in a week or so others take it bad and your season is over i think the mild form is the reason many fanciers do not know they have it and keep sending them dont be thinking if i dont jag i will not get it believe me you will when your birds come into contact with birds that have just been vacinated ive tried that to and found when i got ybs with youngbirds that had not been vaccinated they died we need the so called experts to come forward and tell us how to stop this and thats not happening why because they dont know why the only way we could find out if its the vaccine thats causing the problem is for no one in the country to vaccinate there birds for a year or for everyone in the country to vaccinate at the same time that way we would find out for sure if the vaccination is causing the problem remember guys there was no such thing as youngbird sickness before vaccination

[William Reid]

heres another point to add to the confusion the guys that were told by vets to vaccinate there birds twice still got ybs ask the dutch lads these so called experts do not have a clue what it is or whats the cause and are taking our money under false pretenses if you or your birds are in contact with birds that have ybs you will get it to some degree no matter what you do or give them i also now think a lot depends on the age of the majority of your youngbird team at the time they are exposed to it as the older the youngbird the better it seems to handle it its your youngest birds that seem to take it the worse and is a killer for them but one thing i do do know if you vaccinate or not if you race or train with other birds you will get it some only get it mild and can shake it off in a week or so others take it bad and your season is over i think the mild form is the reason many fanciers do not know they have it and keep sending them dont be thinking if i dont jag i will not get it believe me you will when your birds come into contact with birds that have just been vacinated ive tried that to and found when i got ybs with youngbirds that had not been vaccinated they died we need the so called experts to come forward and tell us how to stop this and thats not happening why because they dont know why the only way we could find out if its the vaccine thats causing the problem is for no one in the country to vaccinate there birds for a year or for everyone in the country to vaccinate at the same time that way we would find out for sure if the vaccination is causing the problem remember guys there was no such thing as youngbird sickness before vaccination

expletive remove Walter do you think that all pigeon illness is down to vaccination.what a load of $hit when you jag your birds then that job is done .

[walterboswell59]

no i dont think all pigeon illness is down to vaccination just youngbird sickness like i said before vaccination there was no such thing as youngbird sickness

[Guest darren cantrill]

So we now have many variations on a probable underlying reason for young bird sickness the problem I have is are we all seeing the same thing or are we generalising illness within young birds into the one illness and maybe this is the issue I'm getting quite handy with my microscope now and when my birds look under the weather I check for cocci canker and worms and will treat accordingly I can also see bacterial rods etc but I am under no illusion that I can work out what these are I leave well alone unless the flock looks under the weather then I will send a sample off to an avian vet now some illnesses are reoccurring in the basket in certain areas and others are rife in wet damp humid conditions I've had what I thought was young bird sickness twice maybe also had it my first year and have been given two different types of treatment by the vet and one treated for bacterial infection the other for respiratory even the vets can't agree most avian vets can treat the illness or combination of illnesses but most are unsure of the cause we then head down the virus route etc so when did it turn up 80s 90s are there any older fanciers out there who can remember any illness similar we ask a lot of our young birds now the sport has become ultra competitive is this the reason I have friends who tell me they don't train and never treat for anything and then take the first five in a federation with thirty more on the shed roof cause there is no more room on the landing board tried to tell my brother in law whose a new starter that's how to do what they are doing a new lad over the road gets filled with the same crap but he comes over to mine I count him as a friend a good friend and I've told him what I have learned and that is most people will tell you they don't do this they don't do that when in reality they do there are fanciers out there who hammer there race team into the ground in the search for first prizes cause the team they are racing is disposable as they have a team related to the first one that takes up the gauntlet as yearlings it's fiercely competitive and there ain't a lot of transparency in this sport anymore my brother in law and my novice friend over the road have had there eyes opened and take the crap they are led to believe is the truth with a pinch of salt now a mate once told me that birds with canker can throw up corn and suffer with sour crop and he's the one who believes its a form of super canker that is causing the problem gives them extremely wet droppings as well another variation this is why it's so hard to pin down adeno virus circo virus who would want to be a young pigeon is there anyone out there who just lets his youngsters mature and plod along so to speak who never suffers with it another very good point an old fancier give me was if you are stressed you can dam well be assured your pigeons are if it wasn't about thirty years ago why is it such a problem now I'm sure the answer to the problem will be in one of these posts

[Delboy]

Interesting topic lads.

[greenlands]

The thing we've got to look for is what are we doing now that we didn't do before YBS arrived on the scene.Stress,BOP. and a multitude of other things mentioned were here.

Has the birds immune system just failed do to various things that's been mentioned.

Take note there are some birds in your loft that never look to be off colour,always on their toes and bright eyed. ??

What is it ???