Transportation Of Pigeons

[Guest TAMMY_1]

own i know big davie well and he is not trying ridicule no one davie is like yourself only thinking of the birds welfare the same as yourself mate

echo that sentiment and as I said before I doubt if there is anybody on the forum that will have the knowledge and expertise of Davie on the subject of air conditioning and ventilation as he has been at this for about 35-40 years or so,apart from Bigda that is :emoticon-0140-rofl:

[Guest Owen]

Davie,

I have no theories just queries based on observations of not only me but others. The consensus amongst the experts is that pigeons should not be transported in temperatures above 25c and I suspect that they are. I think that I have already said that I will get to the bottom of this as soon as I can. For your friend Tammy 1's benefit I could care less if you are a qualified Rocket Scientist because your input up until now has been both disruptive and negative.

My attitude is that I will not change my mind or deviate from what I have set out to do until I have brought things to a conclusion. I would prefer it if I had overwhelming support in dealing with this situation but I think that it is obvious that it is not going to happen. My opinion is that unfortunately the sport seems to want to keep the Status Quo no matter what which I find sad. When you can find a couple of minutes from your busy life perhaps you could see your way clear to contribute something to this debate. I say this because according to what you have said you have already read the reports on the National Flying Club vehicle and possibly other reports as well. That being the case you must by now realise that there are experienced people who, like me, need to find out the best way to transport pigeons. I am sure that the sport must get to grips with these concerns sooner or later because the welfare groups will sooner or latter. I witnessed something like this years ago in relation to the transportation of farm animals where the rules and practises changed over night.

[Big Davie]

just to add owen to your theory, i think it would be best for each federation from the uk to take a supply of there own water both for aircondition and drinking as i believe using another country's water is not safe enough, if it can give us deli belly i am of the opinion it can give our birds symptoms also ie e coli salmonella, they are not used to drinking foreign water, so every bit helps, british horse trainers take there own water when going to france and such places leave nothing to chance.

 

 

Danny, as per your normal you come on and give us the benefit of your wisdom when in fact you have no idea what you are talking about, lets get one point straight, all of the modern transporters that I have seen to date in fact do not have air conditioning, they have temp controlled mechanical ventilation which is an entirely different thing,this includes our own Geraldys in Lanarkshire and the NFC where I suggest you should read the link I added on my last post.

 

Even if they did have aircon then in my experience having worked in the industry for 40+ years then i have never come across a packaged system that would consume water where there was no need to humidify which is the case on a pigeon transporter, FYI aircon when deployed actually produces water as condense which has to be rejected as waste and is an inherent problem within the industry.

 

Additionally if you had ever been at Uddingston on a Friday night shuffling crates around two transporters and two trailers at 22:00 hours then you would already know that the water tanks are all filled here before the units depart to the race point.

 

Davie

 

 

AND WHY WOULD I BE AT VIEWPARK WE HAVE ALL READY GOT OUR grates in our own shed long ago and the extra ones we bought that not many followed up on

the next point aircon i am not suggesting its in the lanarkshires transporter, but let me say this when we went with the nat 2 years ago and after 5 days in the basket the birds ran out of water at ypres 40 deg heat, what water did they use was it drinking water

proper water, or was it tap water they used

, i also believe the water tank broke enroute to another race point

if horse racing guys want to win races, they don't change its water and they don't use french tap water, they bring there own with them, and back to the camping out,with the national, we go at our own peril with them, as we have to endure 5-7 day hold overs, where as if we go it alone as we should, we could come back up the road at will.

when cost is not the problem but for the sake of 25 fanciers in the lanarkshire that then have about 12 birds each to play about with thoughts of wonder trying to win a national, that equates to the tail wagging the dog, so for a couple of distance doos we the lanarkshire are getting a raw deal we have our own distance races to contend with

we do not need to be doing the endurance test with our birds, duplication seem to be the big chief word now.

but spun and made out we cant afford to go it on our own which is a load of old tosh.

 

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Bigda, Just in case anyone thinks i am being sarcastic towards you i will try to answer your points in as nice a manner as possible.

 

No1 Why would you want to be at Viewpark on a Friday night ---- this has absolutely nothing to do with your club already having their crates within their shed or the fact that they may have purchased crates of their own to donate back to the fed , which i might add was supposed to be a gesture of good will so you really should not be casting this up on here,the fact remains that the Fed transporters and trailers arrive at viewpark where in addition to Uddingstons and other clubs birds being loaded then crates have to be moved around so that the convoy can travel with either one or two trailers left behind or indeed both of these and a transporter left behind once the distance increases,its left to same guys to do this every week and i personally have helped with this on a number of occasions,you are as responsible for this work as any other Fed member but i dont ever recall seeing you preset.

 

No2 Aircon,----- again can reiterate where i was challenging you on my post,you said that each fed in the UK should carry water for both drinking and Aircon, and i responded by saying that aircon does not consume water, i then told you that Lanarkshire transporters did not have Aircon, i was only pointing out that in fact water does not have to be loaded to support aircon which obviously you thought was a requirement, it is not in the absence of a need to humidify.

 

Ypres, Water , SNFC ---- If i recall correctly then the SNFC have never in fact had a 5 day hold over at Ypres as all races from this race point have been very succsessfull, i am sure you are getting mixed up with Lanarkshire Feds Carentan race of 2012 where their was a lengthy holdover, again if my memory is accurate then this race had nothing at all to do with the SNFC, it was run by Lanarkshire Fed who hired a modern transporter with aluminium crates from another organisation,with regards the water, you said that the temperature was 40oC which is very hot, personally i dont recall this as i thought the reason for this holdover was due to bad weather, never the less having been held over for 5 days then i imagine their is every possibility that they could have run out of water and would have needed to fill the tanks, you then asked was this proper water, drinking water, or tap water, i thought all of these were the same thing and would have been suitable as drinking water for pigeons even if it was french water, better that than no water at all, so in the instance we did not go at our peril with the national as the race was organised by Lanarkshire Fed, in addition to this you are aware that a liberation was not possible and the birds had to be brought back home, the only comments i ever recall when fanciers got their birds back were complimentary to the effect that the birds were in fact in super condition which i am sure anyone who had birds at this race will confirm, this only corroborates my view that modern transporters with aluminium crates are vastly superior to anything we have previously had in years gone by.

 

SNFC and Federation duplication ------ Again if my memory is accurate from our race programme agm which i dont think you attended ?? then the intention for season 2014 is that Lanarkshire will only convoy to one race with the SNFC that being Ypres, this will hopefully allow the dog to wag the tail which you want.

 

To conclude, much of the above is from memory so if i have got anything wrong then please accept my apologies in advance, however i do hope that this script demonstrates how posts can be interpreted incorrectly by anyone from outwith a local area when much of what the author has written is a ------------- we will leave it at unsubstantiated for your benefit Owen, and thats my only hint of sarcasm here, the local guys will draw their own conclusions

 

Davie

[Guest TAMMY_1]

Davie,

I have no theories just queries based on observations of not only me but others. The consensus amongst the experts is that pigeons should not be transported in temperatures above 25c and I suspect that they are. I think that I have already said that I will get to the bottom of this as soon as I can. For your friend Tammy 1's benefit I could care less if you are a qualified Rocket Scientist because your input up until now has been both disruptive and negative.

My attitude is that I will not change my mind or deviate from what I have set out to do until I have brought things to a conclusion. I would prefer it if I had overwhelming support in dealing with this situation but I think that it is obvious that it is not going to happen. My opinion is that unfortunately the sport seems to want to keep the Status Quo no matter what which I find sad. When you can find a couple of minutes from your busy life perhaps you could see your way clear to contribute something to this debate. I say this because according to what you have said you have already read the reports on the National Flying Club vehicle and possibly other reports as well. That being the case you must by now realise that there are experienced people who, like me, need to find out the best way to transport pigeons. I am sure that the sport must get to grips with these concerns sooner or later because the welfare groups will sooner or latter. I witnessed something like this years ago in relation to the transportation of farm animals where the rules and practises changed over night.

think you are on a different planet here Owen when you say Davie has been disruptive and negative when in fact he actually knows what he is talking about,I would prefer to listen to somebody like Davie who actually KNOWS what they are talking about,I think you and bigda will be happy together

[Guest Owen]

Tammy 1

I think you have understood at last. I totally accept that there are people who have expertise in all sorts of subjects and are worth listening to. Your friend Davie could be one of them if he decided to offer us his knowledge rather than trying to show us how clever he is with his sarcasm and disrespectful attitude. I will not want to set myself up against anybody in some sort of contest. I would think that sort of thing is childish and a waste of time. If you think that Davie or anyone else has knowledge or information you want then you would be foolish if you didn't make the most of it. I have never seen this Forum as an election or a personality contest where we are trying to gain support for ourselves.

Myself and others think that the way our pigeons are currently transported is damaging our birds in a way that causes them difficulty in getting home. I acknowledge that there are a list of things that could be affecting the high level of losses we are getting but it would be impossible to deal with them all at once. I will stick with what I started out to examine until I find out the truth about the affects of the transport on the birds. There have been studies done and reports written on this subject and they all have one thing in common. The temperature in the containers transporting racing pigeons should not exceed 25c. I am sure that there are transporters in operation that provide ideal conditions for our birds but I am also sure that there are many that do not. I am equally sure that there are people who have little or no understanding about the sort of conditions they should provide for the birds. Some will not be bothered and there will be others who genuinely have not thought about it. With luck we can encourage those who take custody of the pigeons on their way to the race points will understand better how provide them with the best conditions available. In due course I will tell everybody what I find out to bring this study to a conclusion regardless of whether or not it supports my suspicions or not. I will see that as a way of increasing my knowledge and a way of improving the way we treat our birds.

[ALF]

Owen i have suffered more than most in the pigeon game in then last 2 weeks but i think you have made an *expletive removed* of yourself to be honest .....You have to listen to everyones opinion mate the way you seem to do it is if you dont agree with me fk you ....

[Guest bigda]

Tammy 1

I think you have understood at last. I totally accept that there are people who have expertise in all sorts of subjects and are worth listening to. Your friend Davie could be one of them if he decided to offer us his knowledge rather than trying to show us how clever he is with his sarcasm and disrespectful attitude. I will not want to set myself up against anybody in some sort of contest. I would think that sort of thing is childish and a waste of time. If you think that Davie or anyone else has knowledge or information you want then you would be foolish if you didn't make the most of it. I have never seen this Forum as an election or a personality contest where we are trying to gain support for ourselves.

Myself and others think that the way our pigeons are currently transported is damaging our birds in a way that causes them difficulty in getting home. I acknowledge that there are a list of things that could be affecting the high level of losses we are getting but it would be impossible to deal with them all at once. I will stick with what I started out to examine until I find out the truth about the affects of the transport on the birds. There have been studies done and reports written on this subject and they all have one thing in common. The temperature in the containers transporting racing pigeons should not exceed 25c. I am sure that there are transporters in operation that provide ideal conditions for our birds but I am also sure that there are many that do not. I am equally sure that there are people who have little or no understanding about the sort of conditions they should provide for the birds. Some will not be bothered and there will be others who genuinely have not thought about it. With luck we can encourage those who take custody of the pigeons on their way to the race points will understand better how provide them with the best conditions available. In due course I will tell everybody what I find out to bring this study to a conclusion regardless of whether or not it supports my suspicions or not. I will see that as a way of increasing my knowledge and a way of improving the way we treat our birds.

 

well done owen you sure know what's what, and why you have to do this. you might not know much about the ins and outs of a mechanical controlled fan, but i am sure once seen nothing a chimp would find difficulty in setting up, you are more interested in the technical side, that i can understand with the taking of readings, and having the ability to note what you have read, regarding temperatures throughout a transporter, no good allowing a fan to switch its self on then if its not been checked in a real warm day, and without not knowing what temperature is in all the baskets loaded with birds, you could have a case also, of getting 2 extra fans fitted should your study prove to be the case

they sell clean drinking water in 5 gallon drums even in places like france, and that would be the safest bet to give to our birds. as i have said 10% less water means as much as 40% less effort to get home. any one reading this would take this as a plus not a negative, i am also, quite sure there is a transport committee, to deal with basket arrangements, maybe this also adds to the birds not getting peace in the transporter, but i am sure there was never a squeak from anyone before, when this practice was done up at Andersons yard.

Edited November 14, 2013 by bigda

[Guest TAMMY_1]

well done owen you sure know what's what, and why you have to do this. you might not know much about the ins and outs of a mechanical controlled fan, but i am sure once seen nothing a chimp would find difficulty in setting up, you are more interested in the technical side, that i can understand with the taking of readings, and having the ability to note what you have read, regarding temperatures throughout a transporter, no good allowing a fan to switch its self on then if its not been checked in a real warm day, and without not knowing what temperature is in all the baskets loaded with birds, you could have a case also, of getting 2 extra fans fitted should your study prove to be the case

they sell clean drinking water in 5 gallon drums even in places like france, and that would be the safest bet to give to our birds. as i have said 10% less water means as much as 40% less effort to get home. any one reading this would take this as a plus not a negative, i am also, quite sure there is a transport committee, to deal with basket arrangements, maybe this also adds to the birds not getting peace in the transporter, but i am sure there was never a squeak from anyone before, when this practice was done up at Andersons yard.

no problem for you then Danny

[Guest bigda]

no problem for you then Danny

 

even you tammy can see the plus side

[Big Davie]

well done owen you sure know what's what, and why you have to do this. you might not know much about the ins and outs of a mechanical controlled fan, but i am sure once seen nothing a chimp would find difficulty in setting up, you are more interested in the technical side, that i can understand with the taking of readings, and having the ability to note what you have read, regarding temperatures throughout a transporter, no good allowing a fan to switch its self on then if its not been checked in a real warm day, and without not knowing what temperature is in all the baskets loaded with birds, you could have a case also, of getting 2 extra fans fitted should your study prove to be the case

they sell clean drinking water in 5 gallon drums even in places like france, and that would be the safest bet to give to our birds. as i have said 10% less water means as much as 40% less effort to get home. any one reading this would take this as a plus not a negative, i am also, quite sure there is a transport committee, to deal with basket arrangements, maybe this also adds to the birds not getting peace in the transporter, but i am sure there was never a squeak from anyone before, when this practice was done up at Andersons yard.

Well said Danny , more -------------------- unsubstantiated nonsense from you, Owen please forgive me for the sarcasm which is not directed at you, but i can't contain myself, your friend Bigda is more or less calling you a monkey !!!

[Guest Owen]

Alf

you are right. When I decide on a path of action I am not very likely to change direction. You can take my word for the fact that I will follow this situation up until I have come to a proper conclusion. Along the way I don't want to get into a slanging match or disrespect anybody so thanks for your comments but I will not be changing my mind or my direction.

Davie

I see you are at it again. Have a nice day. I don't know you or any of the other people who have given me the benefit of their wisdom so there you go. I certainly have no friends or enemies just people who have an interest in pigeons. Some are positive and some are just showing off like you tend to do. Here is an interesting idea for you. We may meet one day at somewhere like Blackpool, now that should be worth looking forward to. What do you say?

[Guest bigda]

Well said Danny , more -------------------- unsubstantiated nonsense from you, Owen please forgive me for the sarcasm which is not directed at you, but i can't contain myself, your friend Bigda is more or less calling you a monkey !!!

 

as you cant tell the difference between a chimp and a monkey davie, i feel i have to say david one has a "tale " the other aint.

Edited November 15, 2013 by bigda

[Guest IB]

The latest data on transporting pigeons is the Birmingham University readings on the NFC Transporter taken in France in 2007 - the link is in an earlier post. NFC Transporter built in 2006 is the current state of the art as the Dutch & German transporter designs predate it.

 

Couple of statements have been made in the thread which are wrong. Pigeons have what is called a thermo neutral zone (TNZ) and provided they have access to water, ambient temperatures between 10C and 30C have no affect upon them. (That affect is also on their body temperature, so body temperature is very, very important). So a crate that has unrestricted access to water on 3 sides has immediate and distinct advantages over one that has access on just 1 side – and most transporters in Britain have just 1. Usually these are wicker baskets which also have a blind spot on that 1 side so the birds haven’t access to water along the full width of the basket. Improved access to water must be the No1 priority.

 

Temperatures in Britain rarely hit 30C [the TNZ upper critical level] and then usually only in south of England, along the Channel coast. But during the summer months Belgium, France and Spain regularly hit 30C (Belgium) to 40C (Spain) - that’s the time that our birds are there – and temperatures increase the further south you go towards the Med. So for Channel Racing forced ventilation is a must. NFC Transporter system of insulated body materials + roof fans ensures heat from the sun is deflected away from the transporter, radiated heat and evaporated heat & moisture from the birds in the crate is constantly removed through one complete change of air every 3 minutes. These are twin priorities No 2.

 

On Panting : (1) Dr Colin Walker - Apart from being involved with buoyancy and indirectly with oxygen delivery to tissues, the air sacs are also integral to maintaining normal body temperature and fluid levels. Birds do not have sweat glands and so cannot cool themselves by evaporation of moisture from their skin. When hot, their only metabolic option for cooling is to evaporate moisture from the lining of the airsacs. This is why, when pigeons become hot, they start to pant. The resultant increase in air movement over the airsacs leads to increased moisture evaporation, which, in turn, leads to loss of body heat and cooling. Because this method of cooling involves the loss of moisture, it is vital the pigeons have access to water to replace the fluid lost otherwise the birds will start to become dehydrated.

 

(2) Dr David Parsons - explained on this forum about ‘panting’. Fanciers only see the beak open and the throat pulsing rapidly - but it has absolutely nothing to do with the bird being fat - it is a method of quickly lowering the bird’s body temperature by removing heat directly from the blood. The correct term for it is Gular Flutter where air is gulped very rapidly through an open beak, but instead of going down the windpipe, it goes into a special area at the top of the gullet which has a dense supply of blood vessels designed to enable heat to be transferred directly out from the blood into the gullet, through the cooling effect of the rapid inhalation of cool air, and exhalation of warmed air.

[Big Davie]

as you cant tell the difference between a chimp and a monkey davie, i feel i have to say david one has a "tale " the other aint.

Bigda, good one, even I had to laugh at a that

[Big Davie]

The latest data on transporting pigeons is the Birmingham University readings on the NFC Transporter taken in France in 2007 - the link is in an earlier post. NFC Transporter built in 2006 is the current state of the art as the Dutch & German transporter designs predate it.

 

Couple of statements have been made in the thread which are wrong. Pigeons have what is called a thermo neutral zone (TNZ) and provided they have access to water, ambient temperatures between 10C and 30C have no affect upon them. (That affect is also on their body temperature, so body temperature is very, very important). So a crate that has unrestricted access to water on 3 sides has immediate and distinct advantages over one that has access on just 1 side – and most transporters in Britain have just 1. Usually these are wicker baskets which also have a blind spot on that 1 side so the birds haven’t access to water along the full width of the basket. Improved access to water must be the No1 priority.

 

Temperatures in Britain rarely hit 30C [the TNZ upper critical level] and then usually only in south of England, along the Channel coast. But during the summer months Belgium, France and Spain regularly hit 30C (Belgium) to 40C (Spain) - that’s the time that our birds are there – and temperatures increase the further south you go towards the Med. So for Channel Racing forced ventilation is a must. NFC Transporter system of insulated body materials + roof fans ensures heat from the sun is deflected away from the transporter, radiated heat and evaporated heat & moisture from the birds in the crate is constantly removed through one complete change of air every 3 minutes. These are twin priorities No 2.

 

On Panting : (1) Dr Colin Walker - Apart from being involved with buoyancy and indirectly with oxygen delivery to tissues, the air sacs are also integral to maintaining normal body temperature and fluid levels. Birds do not have sweat glands and so cannot cool themselves by evaporation of moisture from their skin. When hot, their only metabolic option for cooling is to evaporate moisture from the lining of the airsacs. This is why, when pigeons become hot, they start to pant. The resultant increase in air movement over the airsacs leads to increased moisture evaporation, which, in turn, leads to loss of body heat and cooling. Because this method of cooling involves the loss of moisture, it is vital the pigeons have access to water to replace the fluid lost otherwise the birds will start to become dehydrated.

 

(2) Dr David Parsons - explained on this forum about ‘panting’. Fanciers only see the beak open and the throat pulsing rapidly - but it has absolutely nothing to do with the bird being fat - it is a method of quickly lowering the bird’s body temperature by removing heat directly from the blood. The correct term for it is Gular Flutter where air is gulped very rapidly through an open beak, but instead of going down the windpipe, it goes into a special area at the top of the gullet which has a dense supply of blood vessels designed to enable heat to be transferred directly out from the blood into the gullet, through the cooling effect of the rapid inhalation of cool air, and exhalation of warmed air.

I.B. well constructed and very informative post

[peter pandy]

The latest data on transporting pigeons is the Birmingham University readings on the NFC Transporter taken in France in 2007 - the link is in an earlier post. NFC Transporter built in 2006 is the current state of the art as the Dutch & German transporter designs predate it.

 

Couple of statements have been made in the thread which are wrong. Pigeons have what is called a thermo neutral zone (TNZ) and provided they have access to water, ambient temperatures between 10C and 30C have no affect upon them. (That affect is also on their body temperature, so body temperature is very, very important). So a crate that has unrestricted access to water on 3 sides has immediate and distinct advantages over one that has access on just 1 side – and most transporters in Britain have just 1. Usually these are wicker baskets which also have a blind spot on that 1 side so the birds haven’t access to water along the full width of the basket. Improved access to water must be the No1 priority.

 

Temperatures in Britain rarely hit 30C [the TNZ upper critical level] and then usually only in south of England, along the Channel coast. But during the summer months Belgium, France and Spain regularly hit 30C (Belgium) to 40C (Spain) - that’s the time that our birds are there – and temperatures increase the further south you go towards the Med. So for Channel Racing forced ventilation is a must. NFC Transporter system of insulated body materials + roof fans ensures heat from the sun is deflected away from the transporter, radiated heat and evaporated heat & moisture from the birds in the crate is constantly removed through one complete change of air every 3 minutes. These are twin priorities No 2.

 

On Panting : (1) Dr Colin Walker - Apart from being involved with buoyancy and indirectly with oxygen delivery to tissues, the air sacs are also integral to maintaining normal body temperature and fluid levels. Birds do not have sweat glands and so cannot cool themselves by evaporation of moisture from their skin. When hot, their only metabolic option for cooling is to evaporate moisture from the lining of the airsacs. This is why, when pigeons become hot, they start to pant. The resultant increase in air movement over the airsacs leads to increased moisture evaporation, which, in turn, leads to loss of body heat and cooling. Because this method of cooling involves the loss of moisture, it is vital the pigeons have access to water to replace the fluid lost otherwise the birds will start to become dehydrated.

 

(2) Dr David Parsons - explained on this forum about ‘panting’. Fanciers only see the beak open and the throat pulsing rapidly - but it has absolutely nothing to do with the bird being fat - it is a method of quickly lowering the bird’s body temperature by removing heat directly from the blood. The correct term for it is Gular Flutter where air is gulped very rapidly through an open beak, but instead of going down the windpipe, it goes into a special area at the top of the gullet which has a dense supply of blood vessels designed to enable heat to be transferred directly out from the blood into the gullet, through the cooling effect of the rapid inhalation of cool air, and exhalation of warmed air.

 

Ian,

I cannot dispute Dr's Walker and Parker's explanation on panting as not being resultant on internal fat but I noticed this occurrence with a team of birds I was responsible for and ascertained the cause was occurring when the birds were not exercising to my satisfaction. I noticed certain birds would drop onto the loft after 5 minutes and start panting bringing the team down where I observed others would start panting. The following exercise period I forced them with the help of Ward & Sons from the loft roof to an extra 5 minutes at every exercise period till 1 hour was reached. All panting had stopped at the 30 minute period which led me to the belief that it was internal fat hence my post on the subject. The weather had no effect on this situation as it most certainly was not warm and a photograph of my antics show I was wearing a boiler suit and heavy jacket.

P.S. Ward & Sons was a 12 bore shotgun.

[Guest bigda]

Bigda, good one, even I had to laugh at a that

 

[dal2]

The latest data on transporting pigeons is the Birmingham University readings on the NFC Transporter taken in France in 2007 - the link is in an earlier post. NFC Transporter built in 2006 is the current state of the art as the Dutch & German transporter designs predate it.

 

Couple of statements have been made in the thread which are wrong. Pigeons have what is called a thermo neutral zone (TNZ) and provided they have access to water, ambient temperatures between 10C and 30C have no affect upon them. (That affect is also on their body temperature, so body temperature is very, very important). So a crate that has unrestricted access to water on 3 sides has immediate and distinct advantages over one that has access on just 1 side – and most transporters in Britain have just 1. Usually these are wicker baskets which also have a blind spot on that 1 side so the birds haven’t access to water along the full width of the basket. Improved access to water must be the No1 priority.

 

Temperatures in Britain rarely hit 30C [the TNZ upper critical level] and then usually only in south of England, along the Channel coast. But during the summer months Belgium, France and Spain regularly hit 30C (Belgium) to 40C (Spain) - that’s the time that our birds are there – and temperatures increase the further south you go towards the Med. So for Channel Racing forced ventilation is a must. NFC Transporter system of insulated body materials + roof fans ensures heat from the sun is deflected away from the transporter, radiated heat and evaporated heat & moisture from the birds in the crate is constantly removed through one complete change of air every 3 minutes. These are twin priorities No 2.

 

On Panting : (1) Dr Colin Walker - Apart from being involved with buoyancy and indirectly with oxygen delivery to tissues, the air sacs are also integral to maintaining normal body temperature and fluid levels. Birds do not have sweat glands and so cannot cool themselves by evaporation of moisture from their skin. When hot, their only metabolic option for cooling is to evaporate moisture from the lining of the airsacs. This is why, when pigeons become hot, they start to pant. The resultant increase in air movement over the airsacs leads to increased moisture evaporation, which, in turn, leads to loss of body heat and cooling. Because this method of cooling involves the loss of moisture, it is vital the pigeons have access to water to replace the fluid lost otherwise the birds will start to become dehydrated.

 

(2) Dr David Parsons - explained on this forum about ‘panting’. Fanciers only see the beak open and the throat pulsing rapidly - but it has absolutely nothing to do with the bird being fat - it is a method of quickly lowering the bird’s body temperature by removing heat directly from the blood. The correct term for it is Gular Flutter where air is gulped very rapidly through an open beak, but instead of going down the windpipe, it goes into a special area at the top of the gullet which has a dense supply of blood vessels designed to enable heat to be transferred directly out from the blood into the gullet, through the cooling effect of the rapid inhalation of cool air, and exhalation of warmed air.

 

 

Well there you go. Somebody has looked at the same reasearch that I did regarding body temps, deemed irrelevant by others???, I cant understand why somebody would ask for the views of people in the know regarding a/c then diss them when they gave their view? I also cant understand why fanciers views, most of whom crawled into the loft, are dismissed even tho it is what they truely believe and what they were taught from the start?

 

I, like Mr Pandy, have always believed that panting was all down to unfit/fat birds and have always found that countinous exercise stopped the panting. The reason being that I have had birds pant after exercise in Febuary after they have been shut up? Surely this cant be don to air temp?

 

Best of luck with this thread but feel we are on the wrong road JMO

[Big Davie]

Alf

you are right. When I decide on a path of action I am not very likely to change direction. You can take my word for the fact that I will follow this situation up until I have come to a proper conclusion. Along the way I don't want to get into a slanging match or disrespect anybody so thanks for your comments but I will not be changing my mind or my direction.

Davie

I see you are at it again. Have a nice day. I don't know you or any of the other people who have given me the benefit of their wisdom so there you go. I certainly have no friends or enemies just people who have an interest in pigeons. Some are positive and some are just showing off like you tend to do. Here is an interesting idea for you. We may meet one day at somewhere like Blackpool, now that should be worth looking forward to. What do you say?

Owen, I have just returned from a club meeting where we were having a chat about this thread , i have also been having read through all of this material again and having a think about how this debate ever got to the level where you and I are basically slinging mud at each other. Although I did not agree with some of your views the debate had remained fairly civil up until around post 61, when Bigda entered the arena , although he is entitled to his opinions the same as anyone else you will have gathered by now that much of what he writes is not accurate, you might not agree with that but that's what I think , it pains me to write this on an open forum but in his case and one other local on here who will remain nameless I have to admit that I do find it difficult to contain myself and they both bring out the worst in me which usually results in the discussion ending up as a farce, otherwise if I decide to contribute to any subject then it is usually at a sensible and civil level, as I said having discussed this with some other fanciers tonight then I was given some advice by another basics member who is a regular contributor on this forum who has refused to answer or acknowledge any of Bigda,s posts for the last two years, I have decided to follow his example so from me to Bigda it's over and out.

 

When I entered this debate I did so with an open mind with intention of contributing positively and constructively, however somewhere along the line both you and me have been side tracked away from the issues at hand into a myre of sarcasm which I am sure you will agree is the lowest form of wit, I think both of us have to accept some of the responsibility for this.

 

Having considered your last post above then Alf,s situation puts things into perspective, i also agree that basically you don't know much about me and likewise I know very little about you other than what I have read on this and other threads on Basics, perhaps we are not that different and at the end of the day have the best interests of the pigeons at heart, contrary to what you may think , and although I am certainly no shrinking violet , I personally do not enjoy confrontation , i get enough of this at work and can do without it during my leisure time even though at times this is unavoidable, so I will make you an offer, why don't you and I bury the hatchet and settle our differences, we might not agree on some things but I promise if I do contribute anything further to this debate then it will be constructive, that way if we do bump into one another at Blackpool for instance , then rather than have a brawl maybe I can buy you a pint, let me know what you think.

 

Davie

[andy Burgess]

Owen, I have just returned from a club meeting where we were having a chat about this thread , i have also been having read through all of this material again and having a think about how this debate ever got to the level where you and I are basically slinging mud at each other. Although I did not agree with some of your views the debate had remained fairly civil up until around post 61, when Bigda entered the arena , although he is entitled to his opinions the same as anyone else you will have gathered by now that much of what he writes is not accurate, you might not agree with that but that's what I think , it pains me to write this on an open forum but in his case and one other local on here who will remain nameless I have to admit that I do find it difficult to contain myself and they both bring out the worst in me which usually results in the discussion ending up as a farce, otherwise if I decide to contribute to any subject then it is usually at a sensible and civil level, as I said having discussed this with some other fanciers tonight then I was given some advice by another basics member who is a regular contributor on this forum who has refused to answer or acknowledge any of Bigda,s posts for the last two years, I have decided to follow his example so from me to Bigda it's over and out.

 

When I entered this debate I did so with an open mind with intention of contributing positively and constructively, however somewhere along the line both you and me have been side tracked away from the issues at hand into a myre of sarcasm which I am sure you will agree is the lowest form of wit, I think both of us have to accept some of the responsibility for this.

 

Having considered your last post above then Alf,s situation puts things into perspective, i also agree that basically you don't know much about me and likewise I know very little about you other than what I have read on this and other threads on Basics, perhaps we are not that different and at the end of the day have the best interests of the pigeons at heart, contrary to what you may think , and although I am certainly no shrinking violet , I personally do not enjoy confrontation , i get enough of this at work and can do without it during my leisure time even though at times this is unavoidable, so I will make you an offer, why don't you and I bury the hatchet and settle our differences, we might not agree on some things but I promise if I do contribute anything further to this debate then it will be constructive, that way if we do bump into one another at Blackpool for instance , then rather than have a brawl maybe I can buy you a pint, let me know what you think.

 

Davie

what a gent , hold your head up high

[walterboswell59]

what a gent , hold your head up high

well said andy never found davie to be anything other than a gentleman lets hope owen feels the same as its gone off the rails a bit

[VMS]

Always looking for excuses for inferior stock,end ov debate for me

[andy Burgess]

well said andy never found davie to be anything other than a gentleman lets hope owen feels the same as its gone off the rails a bit

I do "honestly" hope this thread can get back on topic , I personally value Owens in-put , I can understand his point too .yet don't feel it as come across clearly to all??

 

maybe with some true facts and thought , "all can be friends" , some help can be given , and the true message can be heard and some help will follow to "sort this issue out" step forward for the sport surely cant be a bad thing ??

[Guest TAMMY_1]

Always looking for excuses for inferior stock,end ov debate for me

 

not sure I would agree when you say inferior stock Vinnie,I like others agree that the panting is down to unfit birds as I know some of mine are like that when they first start to go out after being kept in for 5 months but it is soon gone after a couple of days,some of our birds never pant I just find it with the few larger cocks we have and the smaller to medium birds never seem to pant at all which is probably because they never get as much to eat in winter,but like everything posted on any thread everybody has to have their own opinion and if you disagree you just post up your own opinion and you have to respect each others opinion whether you agree with it or not because very few people will agree on the same thing you do what works for you and let others get on with their own

 

I do "honestly" hope this thread can get back on topic , I personally value Owens in-put , I can understand his point too .yet don't feel it as come across clearly to all??

 

maybe with some true facts and thought , "all can be friends" , some help can be given , and the true message can be heard and some help will follow to "sort this issue out" step forward for the sport surely cant be a bad thing ??

agree on that Andy but Owen has to accept everybody else has an opinion as well as does everybody,except Danny as he is ALWAYS RIGHT and you cannot just diss it because you do not like it or disagree,so I take it the drinks will be on you and Owen at the Big Blue :emoticon-0167-beer: :emoticon-0167-beer:

[andy Burgess]

 

 

agree on that Andy but Owen has to accept everybody else has an opinion as well as does everybody,except Danny as he is ALWAYS RIGHT and you cannot just diss it because you do not like it or disagree,so I take it the drinks will be on you and Owen at the Big Blue :emoticon-0167-beer: :emoticon-0167-beer:

 

not dissed it ,didn't say I didn't like it, didn't disagree .just , like you want folk,s to see others points of view and accept them for what they are . drinks are now on you ,