Transportation Of Pigeons

[knoxjn]

you have to remember there are people out there who do not basket train their birds they think their birds will do the same as the rest not true if they are not properly trained they just stand not knowing what to do and are easily intimadated by the more boistrous birds cocks and hens

[Big Davie]

deff agree with that tyson and if the losses had only occured since we started using aluminium crates then id say owen was on to something but that is not the case we had been having really bad losses using wicker baskets and feds that still use wicker baskets are still having bad losses so imo the problem cannot be the baskets and what swayed me was last year our fed birds were brought back after 5 or 6 days in the alu crates and were in great order the only thing i would say is id like to see a bit more bedding in them but thats just my preferance less birds and more bedding can only be good for the birds

Spot on Walter

[soupie]

surely its a no brainer to at least test this, and its a bit strange that no one seems to have thought of this before, as there doesn't seem to be any data on this readily available.

 

considering the amount of money that gets spent on all aspects of pigeons, this maybe the best money ever spent, even if it just puts this theory/statement to bed.

 

I race in the NIPA, so it can't really cost that much relatively speaking to install humidity/temperature sensors at different places within each transporter to monitor this.

 

If everything's grand, then so be it and no harm done.

 

But if there happens to be an issue, then something can actually get done about it.

 

fair play to you Owen for starting the debate

 

soupie

[Guest Owen]

My point has never been that I want to confine my points to just aluminium crates. Regardless of what crates are used if those temperatures go to above 25c there is a problem.

I think the aluminium crates are suspect because some of them are very poorly ventilated and also the heat will reflect from shinny surfaces. In regard to the roof of these vehicles. I am sure that I can't generalise because there will be some with Perspex that allows the heat to penetrate the vehicle just like a greenhouse and there will be some where the heat is not able to build up.

As for the point that if the pigeon staggers when it lands it is not good enough. What a load of nonsense that is because that is down to the owner. Another person blames paper pigeons and claims that people buy bad pigeons. Another load of all tosh. Then there are people who want to blame the convoyer. OK convoyers and race controllers make mistakes but no-one will convince me that these guys deliberately neglect the birds. If it can be proven that a case like that comes to light there should never be a second thought and the individual concerned should be given his marching orders.

I say that we are releasing pigeons at the liberation sites after a period in the crates in a dehydrated condition and many of them are suffering from hypoxia because they do not get enough oxygen due to the moisture in the air from their breath. This problem is further compounded by fumes from the droppings where there are no absorbent material used in the containers. The design of the crates and containers should include adequate drinking facilities and I am unsure as to whether just one low level drinker is enough.

Finally I spent 10 minutes in a sauna today and the temperature was around 80f (27c)or just above and I am sure I could not have found the energy to race after that and definitely would not have wanted to crowded in a small space with others in temperatures like that. All along I have asked people to try to release the facts about this subject rather than speculate and maybe we can all benefit because we will know for sure the truth of the situation. I think it is fair to say that we all want the best conditions for our birds because unless we can understand and reduce the losses to an acceptable level the sport will be dead and buried in a very short time.

[dal2]

My point has never been that I want to confine my points to just aluminium crates. Regardless of what crates are used if those temperatures go to above 25c there is a problem.

I think the aluminium crates are suspect because some of them are very poorly ventilated and also the heat will reflect from shinny surfaces. In regard to the roof of these vehicles. I am sure that I can't generalise because there will be some with Perspex that allows the heat to penetrate the vehicle just like a greenhouse and there will be some where the heat is not able to build up.

As for the point that if the pigeon staggers when it lands it is not good enough. What a load of nonsense that is because that is down to the owner. Another person blames paper pigeons and claims that people buy bad pigeons. Another load of all tosh. Then there are people who want to blame the convoyer. OK convoyers and race controllers make mistakes but no-one will convince me that these guys deliberately neglect the birds. If it can be proven that a case like that comes to light there should never be a second thought and the individual concerned should be given his marching orders.

I say that we are releasing pigeons at the liberation sites after a period in the crates in a dehydrated condition and many of them are suffering from hypoxia because they do not get enough oxygen due to the moisture in the air from their breath. This problem is further compounded by fumes from the droppings where there are no absorbent material used in the containers. The design of the crates and containers should include adequate drinking facilities and I am unsure as to whether just one low level drinker is enough.

Finally I spent 10 minutes in a sauna today and the temperature was around 80f (27c)or just above and I am sure I could not have found the energy to race after that and definitely would not have wanted to crowded in a small space with others in temperatures like that. All along I have asked people to try to release the facts about this subject rather than speculate and maybe we can all benefit because we will know for sure the truth of the situation. I think it is fair to say that we all want the best conditions for our birds because unless we can understand and reduce the losses to an acceptable level the sport will be dead and buried in a very short time.

Owen

Whats the normal internal blood temp for a pigeon? The fumes? Are we talking amonia?

 

If you spent 10mins in a sauna at 27degree c then i suggest you concentrate on your fitness LOL

[walterboswell59]

sorry soupie i know owens intentions are good but i dont see any debate because heavy losses occur in wicker baskets training vans even flat bed lorries open to the fresh air and wind cool and even cold days and we still lose birds so where is the debate water yes baskets no way and this is fact not opinion we get the losses hot or cold days and in all kinds of transportion and all kinds of baskets the problem is bops not baskets or heat

[Big Davie]

At the moment I have only seen opinions and comparisons that are not a true reflection of the actual situations. The only way we will unravel this situation is to establish what is measurable and what is opinion. We can measure the temperatures in the crates over an extended period of time easily. We can measure the returns from races by taking the number of birds clocked from the ETS sheets. OK some will argue that they will take the clock out early and others will want to include birds that return late but with reasonable co-operation it can be done. We can know the weather with ease. Even with this information we can start to gain knowledge about what is happening.

If there are going to be people who will argue about things that no-one can know such as the one about I like the crates because I don't lose birds training we will get nowhere. Then there is the idea that the temperatures in lofts can be compared to temperatures in the crates. It will only take a moments thought to realise that things are very different between those two things and comparisons are not valid.

Many of the arguments I have seen up to now have been in favour of the status quo. I find it hard to believe that anyone wants to carry on losing pigeons at the rate we are now so I want to examine possible causes and eliminate those that are not causing us the problem.

My own mind is made up. I want to find out why we are losing pigeons and put a stop to it if possible.

Owen, you are on about facts and opinions, to quote yourself from an earlier post this thread ( If pigeon fanciers choose to ignore the proven facts then I think they are both irresponsible an stupid ) having again read through your posts on this thread and your letter in the BHW can you advise what you have offered up that is FACTUAL with regards the environmental conditions within a modern transporter, as far as I can see you have only offered up your own personal opinions, the same as anyone else on Basics to which they are entitled, this does not make them stupid or irresponsible.

 

To conclude, whilst i commend your commitment and enthusiasm and wish you well with your investigation and agree that areas within our own control should be investigated in the first instance i think you also have to consider the very real possibility that the losses you describe may in FACT be completely unrelated to modern transporters, i am not saying that i have any more answers to this problem than yourself but on this point I will give you a few other well documented areas to consider, inferior pigeons, unhealthy pigeons, pigeons with compromised immune systems due to drug abuse, pigeons not basket trained,solar flares,sun spots,K index, ozone layer depletion, changing weather patterns, mobile phone, satellite tv , wireless broadband transmissions, defence early warning systems, airport radar, etc,etc, all of which could have a major influence on the ability of our pigeons to safely return to their lofts, with regards the items directly related to the birds then these are within our control, however with regards what is in the atmosphere then these issues are certainly above my intellect level, I don't know about yours.

 

Davie

[Big Davie]

At the moment I have only seen opinions and comparisons that are not a true reflection of the actual situations. The only way we will unravel this situation is to establish what is measurable and what is opinion. We can measure the temperatures in the crates over an extended period of time easily. We can measure the returns from races by taking the number of birds clocked from the ETS sheets. OK some will argue that they will take the clock out early and others will want to include birds that return late but with reasonable co-operation it can be done. We can know the weather with ease. Even with this information we can start to gain knowledge about what is happening.

If there are going to be people who will argue about things that no-one can know such as the one about I like the crates because I don't lose birds training we will get nowhere. Then there is the idea that the temperatures in lofts can be compared to temperatures in the crates. It will only take a moments thought to realise that things are very different between those two things and comparisons are not valid.

Many of the arguments I have seen up to now have been in favour of the status quo. I find it hard to believe that anyone wants to carry on losing pigeons at the rate we are now so I want to examine possible causes and eliminate those that are not causing us the problem.

My own mind is made up. I want to find out why we are losing pigeons and put a stop to it if possible.

 

 

Owen, you are on about facts and opinions, to quote yourself from an earlier post this thread ( If pigeon fanciers choose to ignore the proven facts then I think they are both irresponsible an stupid ) having again read through your posts on this thread and your letter in the BHW can you advise what you have offered up that is FACTUAL with regards the environmental conditions within a modern transporter, as far as I can see you have only offered up your own personal opinions, the same as anyone else on Basics to which they are entitled, this does not make them stupid or irresponsible.

 

To conclude, whilst i commend your commitment and enthusiasm and wish you well with your investigation and agree that areas within our own control should be investigated in the first instance i think you also have to consider the very real possibility that the losses you describe may in FACT be completely unrelated to modern transporters, i am not saying that i have any more answers to this problem than yourself but on this point I will give you a few other well documented areas to consider, inferior pigeons, unhealthy pigeons, pigeons with compromised immune systems due to drug abuse, pigeons not basket trained,solar flares,sun spots,K index, ozone layer depletion, changing weather patterns, mobile phone, satellite tv , wireless broadband transmissions, defence early warning systems, airport radar, etc,etc, all of which could have a major influence on the ability of our pigeons to safely return to their lofts, with regards the items directly related to the birds then these are within our control, however with regards what is in the atmosphere then these issues are certainly above my intellect level, I don't know about yours.

 

Davie

Forgot to include BOP which could be the single most importand contributory factor to bad returns.

[frank-123]

Forgot to include BOP which could be the single most importand contributory factor to bad returns.

 

Think that is the common denominator.

[billt]

Forgot to include BOP which could be the single most importand contributory factor to bad returns.

 

And that's the Peregrine Falcon, nothing else attacks en route, the Hawks are surprise attackers

[Big Davie]

And that's the Peregrine Falcon, nothing else attacks en route, the Hawks are surprise attackers

Exactly, and their are thousands upon thousands of the barstwards.

[Walter swanston]

All this stuff about temperatures in the transporters is seriously interesting and surely worth considering but it has been established time and time again that the main causes of racing pigeon losses is PEREGRINE FALCONS .Anything else however fascinating is aside issue.

[JohnQuinn]

I don't get the BHW these days but it beggars my belief that anyone would write in to a magazine about a subject they have little or no knowledge of, sorry Owen but you've more or less said that in your own posts, but it's beyond me.

If you wanted to start a debate on it why write into a magazine??? Surely your desired outcome would be better achieved on a public forum like this one, or across the many forums that are available to get idea's or Facts on the subject, can't figure it out!!

[Guest Owen]

Davie

the way I see it is, that we have either start somewhere to deal with the losses or carry on complaining and doing nothing. Of course I am aware of the other threats to the birds and we could have started an investigation at any of these points but I chose transportation because I know that if it proves to be a major factor in the losses we can and should deal with it.

I agree that falcons are a real threat to our birds after all I live in an area where they are attacking pigeons all the time. We could have accumulated information on that problem but there are people already doing that very efficiently. Even if we did vigorously investigate the damage that falcons are undoubtedly doing there would be people complaining and arguing against those who try to sort these things out.

I think that the thing that bothers me is that there are people out there who will not bother to support any attempt to clear up a potential problem. We have them here locally and they are very strong on theories but will do nothing about anything that requires them to actually do something.

Now then, can I take it from what you say that you can not agree that we should look into the way we transport pigeons? I accept that there are many other potential problems to deal with so I have no issue with you there. I also take Walter's point that when various forms of transport have been used the races have been fine. If that is the case Walter we should look at what was done there and learn from it.

Davie and any other person of decent I would be grateful if you could tell me what actions you are going to take to find out what is happening to our birds because I can assure you that I will do all I can to assist in any way I can. The problem I have now is that it will be months before I can get started to examine this potential problem in depth and I don't really want to continually exchange words of little meaning if I can help it. However now that the debate has started I will be obliged to reply to direct questions to the best of my ability.

[Guest Owen]

Dal2

the internal temperature of a pigeon has no relevance to this discussion just as your internal temperature has no relevance to your ability to tolerate heat. Yes the fumes that I was referring to are mainly ammonia from the droppings. In addition to that all birds need more oxygen than mammals due to the way there respiratory systems are set up. Just think of the reason that canaries were used to locate gas down the pit or why the budgie died when someone sprayed fly spray in the room. If pigeons are kept in overheated conditions they must pant to lose heat because they do not sweat. The air is then very humid especially in the crates and the levels of oxygen are decreased. Pigeons that are deprived of oxygen will suffer with hypoxia which is a lack of blood to the brain. This often results in the birds suffering with reduced consciousness just like you would be after drinking too much on Saturday night. When the birds are released they will crave water and become confused which makes easier prey for the falcons and they become disorientated.

I am sure that what I am saying is not the only reasons why things are going wrong by a long way and Davie is right when he says that but I am sure that this situation needs to be cleared up.

[Guest Owen]

Dal2

sorry I slipped up and wrote that hypoxia is "when the brain is deprived of blood". It should have read "when the brain is deprived of oxygen".

[Guest TAMMY_1]

Owen, you are on about facts and opinions, to quote yourself from an earlier post this thread ( If pigeon fanciers choose to ignore the proven facts then I think they are both irresponsible an stupid ) having again read through your posts on this thread and your letter in the BHW can you advise what you have offered up that is FACTUAL with regards the environmental conditions within a modern transporter, as far as I can see you have only offered up your own personal opinions, the same as anyone else on Basics to which they are entitled, this does not make them stupid or irresponsible.

 

To conclude, whilst i commend your commitment and enthusiasm and wish you well with your investigation and agree that areas within our own control should be investigated in the first instance i think you also have to consider the very real possibility that the losses you describe may in FACT be completely unrelated to modern transporters, i am not saying that i have any more answers to this problem than yourself but on this point I will give you a few other well documented areas to consider, inferior pigeons, unhealthy pigeons, pigeons with compromised immune systems due to drug abuse, pigeons not basket trained,solar flares,sun spots,K index, ozone layer depletion, changing weather patterns, mobile phone, satellite tv , wireless broadband transmissions, defence early warning systems, airport radar, etc,etc, all of which could have a major influence on the ability of our pigeons to safely return to their lofts, with regards the items directly related to the birds then these are within our control, however with regards what is in the atmosphere then these issues are certainly above my intellect level, I don't know about yours.

 

Davie

 

you are right Davie,he has his opinions and you and everybody else has theirs and that is all they are opinions and I have not seen any facts to substantiate anything,and as Walter stated there were huge losses from wicker baskets and that will not change just by using different baskets,my opinion only.

[geordie1234]

I actually think the transport of pigeons is probably the least of our worriers

 

BOP, HEALTH AND QUALITY OF PIGEONS I THINK ARE MORE TO BLAME

[Guest Owen]

A bit more information for you all.

A study was done in 2007 by Peter Kettlewell and Roger Hoxley for Birmingham University involving the National Flying Club Transporter giving all the details when the vehicle was used in 3 Continental races.

Steven van Bremen has reported on transportation of pigeons and young bird losses and covers temperature and many other things of interest.

[Guest Owen]

geordie1234

of course we have a lot of problems concerning pigeons. Davie listed most of them earlier but we can decide to sit on our hands and talk endlessly about it or pick our problems off one at a time. It is anybody's guess as to where to start and I have decided to start with something we can change if we find that we have a problem. It will be quite a while before I have a full breakdown of the factual evidence to examine but you have my assurance that I will not be put off by those that think we should accept things as they are. I hope that Davie and some of the other people who seem to want our sport to remain at the status quo and continue to suffer from our problems will get motivated and attack at least one issue to move us on to something better. Meanwhile why not read the reports I have mentioned in my previous post and see what you make of them.

[Guest TAMMY_1]

geordie1234

of course we have a lot of problems concerning pigeons. Davie listed most of them earlier but we can decide to sit on our hands and talk endlessly about it or pick our problems off one at a time. It is anybody's guess as to where to start and I have decided to start with something we can change if we find that we have a problem. It will be quite a while before I have a full breakdown of the factual evidence to examine but you have my assurance that I will not be put off by those that think we should accept things as they are. I hope that Davie and some of the other people who seem to want our sport to remain at the status quo and continue to suffer from our problems will get motivated and attack at least one issue to move us on to something better. Meanwhile why not read the reports I have mentioned in my previous post and see what you make of them.

 

I think that is a wrong assumption about Davie and others,knowing Davie personally and what he worked at I would listen to him more about air conditioning and air problems than anybody else on the forum as he has had plenty experience and expertise in that field.

 

I actually think the transport of pigeons is probably the least of our worriers

BOP, HEALTH AND QUALITY OF PIGEONS I THINK ARE MORE TO BLAME

I think that this is the single biggest problem there is just now with large losses,not by any means the only one but in my opinion the biggest one.

[William Reid]

I actually think the transport of pigeons is probably the least of our worriers

 

BOP, HEALTH AND QUALITY OF PIGEONS I THINK ARE MORE TO BLAME

. :emoticon-0137-clapping: :emoticon-0137-clapping:

[walterboswell59]

nothing said here changes the fact that we had bad races before alu creates were ever used owens info is all based on pigeons overheating so why do we get the same bad races on cool or even cold days people trying to baffle us with scientific drivel does not change this fact there is no dout we have a problem but the facts i have stated prove that its not the creates that are causing the problem and as for sitting doing nothing i can asure you i do my bit to fight the real problem bop and if every one did the same we would get better racing and that something i do agree with owen on to many not willing to get off there back side and do something about it wanting others to do it for them we all know whats needed lets get it done a month before old bird racing and just before youngbird racing and even a few times in between and we will sort the bulk of our problem theres no point in thinking i hes right and do nothing it will not go away we must all get togethere and do it club by club fill the sky for them now thats something worth doing and i base my opinion on fact not theory

[bigjamie]

the new transpoters are are top class i think the most birds to be put in these crates should be 20 22 the most regards the loses of birds i think nowadays we keep to many birds thats just not god enough for the job we talk about the low birdages in the longer races the time the inland races are bye there are no birds left for the big distance races face facts a lot of the birds are just not made for the job its bloody hard nowadays to get good distance birds to cope with the job ahead for them you get folk putting birds away to inland nationals say maybe a dozen hoping they get one through thats not good birds or fancier they are just lifting birds from a loft and living in hope the losses are mostley down to bad birds and not right in condition or health

[Guest Owen]

There are times when I think I must be speaking in a foreign tongue. I want to examine transport facilities regardless of whether they are make of aluminium or wood and wire. I am not in any way against the modern transporters providing they properly ventilated and the temperatures are controlled to stay under 25c. I am sure that much of the transport that was used before the introduction of the modern equipment was at fault.

The National Flying Club Transporter is definitely as modern as you can get yet they have gone to the trouble to actually measure the heat and humidity so that the birds do not become overheated. They have used Gemini Tiny Tag data loggers to record the information over the whole period of 3 Continental races.

There is no doubt the BOP are causing huge problems for us but I will leave that subject to others for the moment except to say that I have my own ways of dealing with the problem which is very severe in this area.

I think it probably time for me to stop these conversations now because there is little to be done until the racing starts. However, I will promise you that I will carry on with my quest after that.

If anyone wants to take up the challenge and try to deal with another problem I am more than willing to help as much as I can. Clashing might be a good situation to look at.