Transportation Of Pigeons

[walterboswell59]

like i said owen i know your intentions are good m8 but reading your letter in the bhw you only mention aluminium creates no other creates are mentioned which has people thinking there is only a problem with the alu creates and that they are causing the problem which is not true

[geordie1234]

the new transpoters are are top class i think the most birds to be put in these crates should be 20 22 the most regards the loses of birds i think nowadays we keep to many birds thats just not god enough for the job we talk about the low birdages in the longer races the time the inland races are bye there are no birds left for the big distance races face facts a lot of the birds are just not made for the job its bloody hard nowadays to get good distance birds to cope with the job ahead for them you get folk putting birds away to inland nationals say maybe a dozen hoping they get one through thats not good birds or fancier they are just lifting birds from a loft and living in hope the losses are mostley down to bad birds and not right in condition or health

Well said Jamie

[Guest bigda]

There are times when I think I must be speaking in a foreign tongue. I want to examine transport facilities regardless of whether they are make of aluminium or wood and wire. I am not in any way against the modern transporters providing they properly ventilated and the temperatures are controlled to stay under 25c. I am sure that much of the transport that was used before the introduction of the modern equipment was at fault.

The National Flying Club Transporter is definitely as modern as you can get yet they have gone to the trouble to actually measure the heat and humidity so that the birds do not become overheated. They have used Gemini Tiny Tag data loggers to record the information over the whole period of 3 Continental races.

There is no doubt the BOP are causing huge problems for us but I will leave that subject to others for the moment except to say that I have my own ways of dealing with the problem which is very severe in this area.

I think it probably time for me to stop these conversations now because there is little to be done until the racing starts. However, I will promise you that I will carry on with my quest after that.

If anyone wants to take up the challenge and try to deal with another problem I am more than willing to help as much as I can. Clashing might be a good situation to look at.

 

owen you are wasting your time explaining your self in here, carry on with what you are setting out to do and should your theory stand up, i would suggest you keep it under your hat and use it in your own fed , i know and you know even a blind man also knows the bops are every where, but as you say very few can read and take in what you are about, as you said dehydration could be the cause as why so many birds are getting picked of easier on the return flights. 10% less water means also 40% less effort in a race day, add that to say 10% less oxygen. all the best owen.

Edited November 12, 2013 by bigda

[Guest Owen]

bigda

thanks for that. There is no way on this Earth that I will be put off from doing what I set out to do. You are right in suggesting that I look at my local situation because that is what started this line of thought in the first place. When I have factual information I will post it on this forum no matter what it says.

[Big Davie]

geordie1234

of course we have a lot of problems concerning pigeons. Davie listed most of them earlier but we can decide to sit on our hands and talk endlessly about it or pick our problems off one at a time. It is anybody's guess as to where to start and I have decided to start with something we can change if we find that we have a problem. It will be quite a while before I have a full breakdown of the factual evidence to examine but you have my assurance that I will not be put off by those that think we should accept things as they are. I hope that Davie and some of the other people who seem to want our sport to remain at the status quo and continue to suffer from our problems will get motivated and attack at least one issue to move us on to something better. Meanwhile why not read the reports I have mentioned in my previous post and see what you make of them.

Owen

 

When I can find an hour to spare I will get back to you on your points, I am a very busy man, however just to keep you going I had read Proffesor Kettlewells report on the NFC transporter long before you ever mentioned it and it only compliments everything I have said regards modern transporters, they are vastly superior to anything we have had before, and their is no air conditioning, FYI, neither am I easily put off its finding time that's the issue with me.

[TREBLE D]

we fly in two organisations one with an old transporter with wicker panniers and the nfc with the ally crates and the geraldy trailer, yes the birds seem chilled and relaxed in the wicker panniers laying in the shavings, and when they go with the nfc they don't seem to be as relaxed on the mesh in the ally crates, but when they come back from the races the nfc birds all ways look fresher and its not just me that has noticed this my fellow club mates have commented on this ass well, the old transporters are no more than cattle wagons with poor ventilation and poor watering systems, where as the new transporters are far better at the watering and ventilating yes they may not be perfect but I think they are miles better and my birds would agree with me as well,

[dal2]

Dal2

the internal temperature of a pigeon has no relevance to this discussion just as your internal temperature has no relevance to your ability to tolerate heat. Yes the fumes that I was referring to are mainly ammonia from the droppings. In addition to that all birds need more oxygen than mammals due to the way there respiratory systems are set up. Just think of the reason that canaries were used to locate gas down the pit or why the budgie died when someone sprayed fly spray in the room. If pigeons are kept in overheated conditions they must pant to lose heat because they do not sweat. The air is then very humid especially in the crates and the levels of oxygen are decreased. Pigeons that are deprived of oxygen will suffer with hypoxia which is a lack of blood to the brain. This often results in the birds suffering with reduced consciousness just like you would be after drinking too much on Saturday night. When the birds are released they will crave water and become confused which makes easier prey for the falcons and they become disorientated.

I am sure that what I am saying is not the only reasons why things are going wrong by a long way and Davie is right when he says that but I am sure that this situation needs to be cleared up.

 

Hi Owen

Suggets you read from Van Bremens blogs to see what the docs and vets think of heat in baskets! Wasnt trying to be flippent or wanted to appear thick, merely wanting to add to your debate!

 

Here is a link of which I am sure that you have read where the subject has been discussed regards temps and the racing pigeon.

 

http://www.stevenvanbreemen.nl/?Hints_2_Win:Flying_racing_pigeons_in_the_heat

 

Here is another, this is what you have been reading no doubt, My question about the internal temp of a pigeon, which you dismissed as irelevant, was aimed at my concerns of overcrowding which is a pretty simple equation of lots of birds = lots of heat which in turn = poor VENTILATION. Allied with the struggle to water in an overcrowded basket all adds up to a bad situation??

Best of luck with your quest.

 

http://www.stevenvanbreemen.nl/?Hints_2_Win:Modern_Pigeon_Transport_%26amp%3B_Facilities

[Guest Owen]

Davie

I think I understand where you are with this. No doubt you will be too busy to actually do anything about anything from what you have said. You say that you will come back to me on points that I have made. Well I think I have been patient and although I have read everything in what has been written by everyone most of the relies I have had have been all about leaving things as they are. That's fine because everyone must be entitled to their opinions and I am sure that there are plenty of experiences with transporters that are acceptable.

I will leave things there for now and perhaps you will step in and try to do something to make some improvements in the horrendous losses that we have all experienced in recent years. In the future I intend to plod through as many possible problems that appear to be having a negative affect on the losses in the hope that I can make a difference. I am sure that the way things are accepted as being normal right now are destroying the sport and if things do not improve soon we will have nothing left. I must now concentrate on breeding lots of lovely youngsters in the hope that I might have one or two left at the end of the year like many people are doing.

[Guest bigda]

Davie

I think I understand where you are with this. No doubt you will be too busy to actually do anything about anything from what you have said. You say that you will come back to me on points that I have made. Well I think I have been patient and although I have read everything in what has been written by everyone most of the relies I have had have been all about leaving things as they are. That's fine because everyone must be entitled to their opinions and I am sure that there are plenty of experiences with transporters that are acceptable.

I will leave things there for now and perhaps you will step in and try to do something to make some improvements in the horrendous losses that we have all experienced in recent years. In the future I intend to plod through as many possible problems that appear to be having a negative affect on the losses in the hope that I can make a difference. I am sure that the way things are accepted as being normal right now are destroying the sport and if things do not improve soon we will have nothing left. I must now concentrate on breeding lots of lovely youngsters in the hope that I might have one or two left at the end of the year like many people are doing.

 

well said owen, hope you get to the bottom of our problem, as you say start at the bottom of the ladder and work your way to the top. there is loads that have theories on ventilation, yet there is none when asked why we get legionnaires disease, and problems from air conditioning so often.

[Big Davie]

My link

 

Guys

 

Never done this before on an iPad so hoping this link works which details the design criteria for the NFC new transporter

[Guest bigda]

just to add owen to your theory, i think it would be best for each federation from the uk to take a supply of there own water both for aircondition and drinking as i believe using another country's water is not safe enough, if it can give us deli belly i am of the opinion it can give our birds symptoms also ie e coli salmonella, they are not used to drinking foreign water, so every bit helps, british horse trainers take there own water when going to france and such places leave nothing to chance.

[Guest TAMMY_1]

just to add owen to your theory, i think it would be best for each federation from the uk to take a supply of there own water both for aircondition and drinking as i believe using another country's water is not safe enough, if it can give us deli belly i am of the opinion it can give our birds symptoms also ie e coli salmonella, they are not used to drinking foreign water, so every bit helps, british horse trainers take there own water when going to france and such places leave nothing to chance.

 

are the Geraldy transporters not filled with drinking water before they go ?

[Guest Owen]

bigda

you could be on to something there. I saw a transporter last year with the corn bags lying on the deck of the vehicle getting wet in the rain. The vehicle was filthy dirty with old mouldy corn and rubbish everywhere. I would doubt if the people running the lorry would have bothered to clean the water facilities because they were upset when I brought the subject of cleaning the vehicle up. I think we would all agree that contaminated water would be a real threat to the bird's health. This could spread all sorts of disease. When I was a child we lived in West Wales and we had family in East Wales. We kids used to love to spend time on holiday with the relations in East Wales but we always had problems with the water. It could be the same for the birds when we travel to the Continent. The horse people would not bother with going to the trouble of taking water for the horses unless they had good reason.

I think what bothers me is what sort of care would be given to our birds with people like the ones who were neglecting the transporter in charge. If push comes to shove I know how to monitor the temperature and the humidity of the crates or the vehicles but I have no clue as to how to monitor the frequency of watering or the cleanliness of the water. To be honest I don't even know if the transporters we use can store enough water to last them thoughout a trip to France. You can rest assured that the subject of water storage and the cleanliness of the equipment will be on the list of things to check out. Bigda it is possible that there are no really big issues that will make the difference but a lot of small things that are wrong added together could add up to something really important. I found that when I wanted to change my results with the birds from awful to average to a winning team. I can't say that one big thing made the difference but a series of small things made a very big difference.

[Big Davie]

just to add owen to your theory, i think it would be best for each federation from the uk to take a supply of there own water both for aircondition and drinking as i believe using another country's water is not safe enough, if it can give us deli belly i am of the opinion it can give our birds symptoms also ie e coli salmonella, they are not used to drinking foreign water, so every bit helps, british horse trainers take there own water when going to france and such places leave nothing to chance.

Danny, as per your normal you come on and give us the benefit of your wisdom when in fact you have no idea what you are talking about, lets get one point straight, all of the modern transporters that I have seen to date in fact do not have air conditioning, they have temp controlled mechanical ventilation which is an entirely different thing,this includes our own Geraldys in Lanarkshire and the NFC where I suggest you should read the link I added on my last post.

 

Even if they did have aircon then in my experience having worked in the industry for 40+ years then i have never come across a packaged system that would consume water where there was no need to humidify which is the case on a pigeon transporter, FYI aircon when deployed actually produces water as condense which has to be rejected as waste and is an inherent problem within the industry.

 

Additionally if you had ever been at Uddingston on a Friday night shuffling crates around two transporters and two trailers at 22:00 hours then you would already know that the water tanks are all filled here before the units depart to the race point.

 

Davie

[geordie1234]

Danny, as per your normal you come on and give us the benefit of your wisdom when in fact you have no idea what you are talking about, lets get one point straight, all of the modern transporters that I have seen to date in fact do not have air conditioning, they have temp controlled mechanical ventilation which is an entirely different thing,this includes our own Geraldys in Lanarkshire and the NFC where I suggest you should read the link I added on my last post.

 

Even if they did have aircon then in my experience having worked in the industry for 40+ years then i have never come across a packaged system that would consume water where there was no need to humidify which is the case on a pigeon transporter, FYI aircon when deployed actually produces water as condense which has to be rejected as waste and is an inherent problem within the industry.

 

Additionally if you had ever been at Uddingston on a Friday night shuffling crates around two transporters and two trailers at 22:00 hours then you would already know that the water tanks are all filled here before the units depart to the race point.

 

Davie

 

[Guest TAMMY_1]

Danny, as per your normal you come on and give us the benefit of your wisdom when in fact you have no idea what you are talking about, lets get one point straight, all of the modern transporters that I have seen to date in fact do not have air conditioning, they have temp controlled mechanical ventilation which is an entirely different thing,this includes our own Geraldys in Lanarkshire and the NFC where I suggest you should read the link I added on my last post.

 

Even if they did have aircon then in my experience having worked in the industry for 40+ years then i have never come across a packaged system that would consume water where there was no need to humidify which is the case on a pigeon transporter, FYI aircon when deployed actually produces water as condense which has to be rejected as waste and is an inherent problem within the industry.

 

Additionally if you had ever been at Uddingston on a Friday night shuffling crates around two transporters and two trailers at 22:00 hours then you would already know that the water tanks are all filled here before the units depart to the race point.

 

Davie

 

no change there Davie,I would think Danny has never been there at the end to load crates but I might be wrong :emoticon-0140-rofl:

[Guest stb-]

Danny, as per your normal you come on and give us the benefit of your wisdom when in fact you have no idea what you are talking about, lets get one point straight, all of the modern transporters that I have seen to date in fact do not have air conditioning, they have temp controlled mechanical ventilation which is an entirely different thing,this includes our own Geraldys in Lanarkshire and the NFC where I suggest you should read the link I added on my last post.

 

Even if they did have aircon then in my experience having worked in the industry for 40+ years then i have never come across a packaged system that would consume water where there was no need to humidify which is the case on a pigeon transporter, FYI aircon when deployed actually produces water as condense which has to be rejected as waste and is an inherent problem within the industry.

 

Additionally if you had ever been at Uddingston on a Friday night shuffling crates around two transporters and two trailers at 22:00 hours then you would already know that the water tanks are all filled here before the units depart to the race point.

 

Davie

Have they been to the continent yet and if so do you put enough water in to last till after libberation .

[Henrik]

Is it possible to have a bed of shavings in these metal crates, as I think if it was it would take away a lot of the objections to the use of these crates

[Guest bigda]

Danny, as per your normal you come on and give us the benefit of your wisdom when in fact you have no idea what you are talking about, lets get one point straight, all of the modern transporters that I have seen to date in fact do not have air conditioning, they have temp controlled mechanical ventilation which is an entirely different thing,this includes our own Geraldys in Lanarkshire and the NFC where I suggest you should read the link I added on my last post.

 

Even if they did have aircon then in my experience having worked in the industry for 40+ years then i have never come across a packaged system that would consume water where there was no need to humidify which is the case on a pigeon transporter, FYI aircon when deployed actually produces water as condense which has to be rejected as waste and is an inherent problem within the industry.

 

Additionally if you had ever been at Uddingston on a Friday night shuffling crates around two transporters and two trailers at 22:00 hours then you would already know that the water tanks are all filled here before the units depart to the race point.

 

Davie

AND WHY WOULD I BE AT VIEWPARK WE HAVE ALL READY GOT OUR grates in our own shed long ago and the extra ones we bought that not many followed up on

the next point aircon i am not suggesting its in the lanarkshires transporter, but let me say this when we went with the nat 2 years ago and after 5 days in the basket the birds ran out of water at ypres 40 deg heat, what water did they use was it drinking water

proper water, or was it tap water they used, i also believe the water tank broke enroute to another race point

if horse racing guys want to win races, they don't change its water and they don't use french tap water, they bring there own with them, and back to the camping out,with the national, we go at our own peril with them, as we have to endure 5-7 day hold overs, where as if we go it alone as we should, we could come back up the road at will.

when cost is not the problem but for the sake of 25 fanciers in the lanarkshire that then have about 12 birds each to play about with thoughts of wonder trying to win a national, that equates to the tail wagging the dog, so for a couple of distance doos we the lanarkshire are getting a raw deal we have our own distance races to contend with

we do not need to be doing the endurance test with our birds, duplication seem to be the big chief word now.

but spun and made out we cant afford to go it on our own which is a load of old tosh.

Edited November 13, 2013 by bigda

[tiger]

Is it possible to have a bed of shavings in these metal crates, as I think if it was it would take away a lot of the objections to the use of these crates

av fed use shavings in theres

[Guest Owen]

I think there some of us attempting to be positive and are trying to make things better all around. Then we have Davie trying to ridicule people with sarcasm and rubbishing any attempt to improve matters. I think everyone has the right to express their views without having their attempts picked on in this rather nasty way. I just don't understand what Davie is getting out of this nonsense. From what he says I believe he has the knowledge and the ability to help us to find out information that could take us to an area of understanding. To be honest I am getting a little bit fed up with his comments especially when I am trying to both learn from others and set up something to produce information that we can use for the benefit of the birds and ourselves. My suggestion to Davie is that why not try to give us positive information and try to help to prove the best way to transport our pigeons and to try hard not to carry on being the boring fellow he is now. My regret is that we can't sit down somewhere to thrash this out because I always like to be in the vicinity of people who are trying to be insulting and nasty just for fun.

[bigjamie]

own i know big davie well and he is not trying ridicule no one davie is like yourself only thinking of the birds welfare the same as yourself mate

[Guest Owen]

bigjamie

the fact is that I don't know the guy and all I have to go on are the remarks that I have seen on this forum and some of them come across as being unhelpful to say the least. When I wrote my letters to the BHW I was not looking for a row or to cause trouble. It is true to say that if it turns out that the people running the vehicles and those who are responsible for the welfare of the birds are knowingly neglecting them they can be sure that I will follow up. I have already seen evidence of neglect and there are witnesses to what has happened. The next stage for me is the ensure that the pigeons are not exposed to temperatures above 25c and that they have adequate fresh clean water. I do not care what transport is used although under certain circumstances I suspect that the aluminium crates could be creating problems by their lack of ventilation and the fact that they will cause the temperatures inside the crates to escalate. The truth of this will become apparent when the racing starts because I will measure what is happening and publish what I find out. The way I look at it is that people genuinely try their best to look after their birds and try very hard to get them into the best condition possible. An expensive business these days. When we hand these birds over to the Convoyers and Race Controllers we want to be sure that they are treated with consideration and care. bigda has an important point when he talks about the water. I think we need to be assured that the water equipment is properly cleaned after every trip to attempt to reduce cross contamination because we can not know what sort of infections might be carried by birds sent to races. I know that at the moment birds are fed by tipping the food into the crates in a way that forces them to eat food contaminated by dung. Often the crates do not have any form of floor dressing so the dung will be very sticky and if any bird has something like worms, for example, they will share their filth with your birds and mine. I think we can do a much better job of transporting our birds when we can understand exactly what is happening. When this situation is resolved I want to move on to something else that could be improved. davie has listed a whole list of possibilities for us to choose from and I have my own ideas. Although I will not go into my ideas and practises now I have tried out various things that have reduced the falcon strikes and I will share them with you all later on when we get to it.

Thanks for your reply I appreciate your comments and I have found them very helpful.

Owen

[Big Davie]

I think there some of us attempting to be positive and are trying to make things better all around. Then we have Davie trying to ridicule people with sarcasm and rubbishing any attempt to improve matters. I think everyone has the right to express their views without having their attempts picked on in this rather nasty way. I just don't understand what Davie is getting out of this nonsense. From what he says I believe he has the knowledge and the ability to help us to find out information that could take us to an area of understanding. To be honest I am getting a little bit fed up with his comments especially when I am trying to both learn from others and set up something to produce information that we can use for the benefit of the birds and ourselves. My suggestion to Davie is that why not try to give us positive information and try to help to prove the best way to transport our pigeons and to try hard not to carry on being the boring fellow he is now. My regret is that we can't sit down somewhere to thrash this out because I always like to be in the vicinity of people who are trying to be insulting and nasty just for fun.

Owen, my, my, it's all getting a bit personal, you obviously don't like your theories being challenged , with regards Bigda you are correct of course, their was a thinly veiled hint of sarcasm in my response to him for which i offer my apologies,he is entitled to his opinion the same as anyone else, it's just that I find that most of what he writes is ...., lets call it unsubstantiated , others might call it something else but I will leave it at unsubstantiated, I'm sure that anyone who knows both me and him can draw their own conclusions and I'm sure you must find it reassuring that you have at least on supporter in Bigda.

 

With regards yourself, up until this point I don't think at any juncture during this debate have I been disrespectful to you, however it would now appear having read the above post that you want to reduce this debate to a personal feud, having considered this can I refer you to your post No5 where you said ---- if pigeon fanciers choose to ignore the facts then I think they are both stupid and irresponsible ----- and also your post No 50 where you said ---- there are times when I think I must be speaking a foreign tongue --- then in my opinion you are inferring that pigeon fanciers don't have the mentality to understand what you are saying and as such you are displaying a distinct lack of respect for the fancy at large , these statements from yourself and your less than complimentary remarks about my character from the above post bring any hint of sarcasm from me into context from which anyone on basics can draw their own conclusions, however IMO your own thinly veiled brand of sarcasm demonstrates a severe case of , and I quote, THE POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK.

 

Davie

[DJWa]

AND WHY WOULD I BE AT VIEWPARK WE HAVE ALL READY GOT OUR grates in our own shed long ago and the extra ones we bought that not many followed up on

the next point aircon i am not suggesting its in the lanarkshires transporter, but let me say this when we went with the nat 2 years ago and after 5 days in the basket the birds ran out of water at ypres 40 deg heat, what water did they use was it drinking water

proper water, or was it tap water they used, i also believe the water tank broke enroute to another race point

if horse racing guys want to win races, they don't change its water and they don't use french tap water, they bring there own with them, and back to the camping out,with the national, we go at our own peril with them, as we have to endure 5-7 day hold overs, where as if we go it alone as we should, we could come back up the road at will.

when cost is not the problem but for the sake of 25 fanciers in the lanarkshire that then have about 12 birds each to play about with thoughts of wonder trying to win a national, that equates to the tail wagging the dog, so for a couple of distance doos we the lanarkshire are getting a raw deal we have our own distance races to contend with

we do not need to be doing the endurance test with our birds, duplication seem to be the big chief word now.

but spun and made out we cant afford to go it on our own which is a load of old tosh.

danny a water tank bracket broke on the way up to Aberdeen but was repaired here before the birds were loaded this was for a inland national race 4 or 5 years ago