Transportation Of Pigeons

[tiger]

letters page of the BHW by owen Elliot

 

he,s having right go at them < aluminium crates >

[Walter swanston]

I read this.What is your position on these crates,clearly they are light easy to handle and easy to clean but do the obvious disadvantages outlined in the letter outweigh the advantages, the development of transporters and the care of birds before liberation is one of the most important matters to be considered in modern pigeon racing.

[tiger]

walter our fed has one and two be honest I think they are the best jmo

[Guest bigda]

I think the guy has a point aluminium will radiate heat with the littlest amount of sun light on them

pigeons can generate plenty heat of there own, but if you add ammonia and slurry to some crates you have a big problem, baskets should have easy bed in them to mop up wet droppings, birds should be fed in the out side trough not in the basket

and water available at all times air con can dehydrate birds also if left on for long periods of time. shade would be the best option to keep birds in trim where possible, even if it meant the transporters moved to a shady area, no good sitting in the heat awaiting the channel to clear, that could take 4 hours before the birds get released and by that time dehydration could be setting in.

Edited November 9, 2013 by bigda

[Guest Owen]

tiger

do you actually know the temperatures of the inside of the crates when the birds are in there? My point is that pigeons should never be subjected to temperatures exceeding 25c. I have no interest in the material used in the crates providing that the birds have ventilation and water and that the temperatures are never allowed to go about 25c. The point about the droppings giving off fumes is also well made because the fumes will deprive the birds of the oxygen they need to stay fit and healthy. People have been trying to guess as to why we lose so many pigeons. I think I have pointed out some serious areas of concern. If pigeon fanciers choose to ignore what are proven facts then I think they are both irresponsible and stupid. If we are prepared to exploit pigeons for sport surely they deserve to be cared for in a responsible way.

[peter pandy]

Having read the letter I have to say I cannot agree with Owen's findings on one or two points. Firstly I have been on a transporter with over 6,000 birds in wicker baskets and the heat at the bottom layer was cool but the top layer was in excess of 30c This was in the cool of the evening before the transporter left for the race point. I dare not think what temp that top layer would be with the mid day liberation the following day however the winning Fed birds all came from the top layer. Secondly Panting this is a condition of an unfit bird in all probability internal fat pressing on the lungs. As to his assertion of 25c being a critical level that our birds must not exceed to be debatable due to many lofts being above that temp in summer show no water consumption increase in fact many would agree the reason modern lofts are closed up is to obtain as much heat as possible. Another point worthy of mention is birds returning with muddy feet and staggering as they landed suggests to me that the bird has been down for a drink and staggering due to it being unfit when sent. To summarise Owens letter It would have been more informative had he informed of us the conditions of the races he had corresponded too as we know the weather in Southern England can be frightfully hot which was why when I raced in the London area the birds were always liberated as early as possible with them returning to the lofts around 9 AM with excellent returns and for the love of me cannot understand why we here in Scotland, Federations have in their race rules no liberations before 10 AM for July and August for Youngsters many undoubtedly don't know what a basket drinker looks like. Personally I believe the aluminium crates to be excellent and have no complaints other than I wish our Fed had them.

[walterboswell59]

the point i would make is our fed was having horrendous losses before we ever had alu creates so the losses part makes no sence

[daviddooman]

Aluminium crates are great john except when they come back wi black head s ha ha effects my show doo s

[Big Davie]

tiger

do you actually know the temperatures of the inside of the crates when the birds are in there? My point is that pigeons should never be subjected to temperatures exceeding 25c. I have no interest in the material used in the crates providing that the birds have ventilation and water and that the temperatures are never allowed to go about 25c. The point about the droppings giving off fumes is also well made because the fumes will deprive the birds of the oxygen they need to stay fit and healthy. People have been trying to guess as to why we lose so many pigeons. I think I have pointed out some serious areas of concern. If pigeon fanciers choose to ignore what are proven facts then I think they are both irresponsible and stupid. If we are prepared to exploit pigeons for sport surely they deserve to be cared for in a responsible way.

Owen, having read a lot of your contributions on Basics then much of what you write is well informed and sensible, however having read your letter in the BHW and the above post regards this subject I believe some of your opinions are ill conceived, I would add that my own federation has prior to the 2013 season purchased two Geraldy transporters which, having now used these for a season are in my opinion vastly superior to the old conventional units, and this is coming from myself who had some reservations on this point.

To take you up on a few points , you advise that pigeons should not be subjected to temps above 25oC, this is an every day occurrence at the loft during spells of good weather, their is no doubt that when exercised they don't like this but they do cope with it pretty well , however I assume that you are referring to when they are in the transporter, FYI, I am not saying that transporters with aircon do not exist but all of the units that I have seen in fact do not have aircon,they have forced mechanical ventilation where fresh air is discharged into each individual crate via a supply air plenum which is part of the crate racking structure, having considered that aircon ( mechanical cooling ) is in fact not installed then the only cooling that is available is free cooling from ambient outside air , which if at or above 25oC is non existent then the best you can do is ventilate as efficiently as you can within the design constraints of the installed ventilation system. With regards aircon a subject I know a bit about then personally I would be dead against this being deployed on a transporter, No1 given that on a hot day with ambient air being lets say 25oC then the air temp within the transporter could be many degrees above this , if mechanically chilled air were then discharged onto the birds you would certainly get thermal shock which would not do the birds any favours at all. No2 , given that the air temp within the transporter would certainly be 25oC + and would be laden with moisture due to respiration and birds panting in an effort to cool themselves then the last thing you would want to do is introduce chilled or cooled air , you may not be aware of this but on fully conditioned aircon systems the desired comfort relative humidity would generally be 50% RH , if RH is above this and dehumidification is needed then this is achieved by cooling below the dew point which drops the moisture from the air , this forms as condensation and is normally removed, however if you apply this to a pigeon transported then I can guarantee you that the unit would be swimming with water which again I'm sure you can imagine would not be conducive to maintaining condition health or form in racing birds, again I reiterate IMO the best you can do is ventilate as efficiently as possible and for the above reasons no mechanical cooling should be used in an effort to keep the temperature below 25oC

 

I also note your statement regards fumes from droppings and that you have no interest in what materials are used to dress the crates, again i do not agree with this, my view is that in order to prevent a build up of fumes and to stop the droppings sticking to the birds feet then in addition to the base cardboard it is essential that a dressing of easibed or similar is applied on top of the cardboard to absorb moisture from the droppings in an effort to dry them out as much as possible , preventing a build of fumes and at the same time stopping these droppings clogging on the birds feet and possibly fouling the feed depending on how they are fed

 

With regards the crates themselves in my experience having watched the birds when water was given at the club hut prior to being loaded then I have never previously in almost 50 years seen birds locating the drinker and drinking so well and this even with YB,s, I put this down to both the length of the drinker which covers the full width of the crate and the fact that the drinker is far more visible than it was on the old wicker baskets.

 

Additionally on the units we have purchased the roof does not allow sunlight to penetrate inside other than through the clear sky lights, however as these can be opened then they actually assist in letting warm air escape at roof level.

 

To conclude, whilst I accept that dehydration could be a major contributory factor regards poor racing and returns my view is that , certainly within the new Geraldy,s that we have purchased in Lanarkshire , then I have not witnessed birds staggering or losing balance due to dehydration and that contrary to your view , environmental conditions within the new units are far more conducive to successful racing than they previously were on the old conventional unit, after all they are designed and built in Germany ( Vorsprung Dorch Technique ) and all that

 

Here endeth the sermon for today.

 

Davie

[walterboswell59]

100 percent agree davy well said from someone who knows what he is talking about

[geordie1234]

Owen, having read a lot of your contributions on Basics then much of what you write is well informed and sensible, however having read your letter in the BHW and the above post regards this subject I believe some of your opinions are ill conceived, I would add that my own federation has prior to the 2013 season purchased two Geraldy transporters which, having now used these for a season are in my opinion vastly superior to the old conventional units, and this is coming from myself who had some reservations on this point.

To take you up on a few points , you advise that pigeons should not be subjected to temps above 25oC, this is an every day occurrence at the loft during spells of good weather, their is no doubt that when exercised they don't like this but they do cope with it pretty well , however I assume that you are referring to when they are in the transporter, FYI, I am not saying that transporters with aircon do not exist but all of the units that I have seen in fact do not have aircon,they have forced mechanical ventilation where fresh air is discharged into each individual crate via a supply air plenum which is part of the crate racking structure, having considered that aircon ( mechanical cooling ) is in fact not installed then the only cooling that is available is free cooling from ambient outside air , which if at or above 25oC is non existent then the best you can do is ventilate as efficiently as you can within the design constraints of the installed ventilation system. With regards aircon a subject I know a bit about then personally I would be dead against this being deployed on a transporter, No1 given that on a hot day with ambient air being lets say 25oC then the air temp within the transporter could be many degrees above this , if mechanically chilled air were then discharged onto the birds you would certainly get thermal shock which would not do the birds any favours at all. No2 , given that the air temp within the transporter would certainly be 25oC + and would be laden with moisture due to respiration and birds panting in an effort to cool themselves then the last thing you would want to do is introduce chilled or cooled air , you may not be aware of this but on fully conditioned aircon systems the desired comfort relative humidity would generally be 50% RH , if RH is above this and dehumidification is needed then this is achieved by cooling below the dew point which drops the moisture from the air , this forms as condensation and is normally removed, however if you apply this to a pigeon transported then I can guarantee you that the unit would be swimming with water which again I'm sure you can imagine would not be conducive to maintaining condition health or form in racing birds, again I reiterate IMO the best you can do is ventilate as efficiently as possible and for the above reasons no mechanical cooling should be used in an effort to keep the temperature below 25oC

 

I also note your statement regards fumes from droppings and that you have no interest in what materials are used to dress the crates, again i do not agree with this, my view is that in order to prevent a build up of fumes and to stop the droppings sticking to the birds feet then in addition to the base cardboard it is essential that a dressing of easibed or similar is applied on top of the cardboard to absorb moisture from the droppings in an effort to dry them out as much as possible , preventing a build of fumes and at the same time stopping these droppings clogging on the birds feet and possibly fouling the feed depending on how they are fed

 

With regards the crates themselves in my experience having watched the birds when water was given at the club hut prior to being loaded then I have never previously in almost 50 years seen birds locating the drinker and drinking so well and this even with YB,s, I put this down to both the length of the drinker which covers the full width of the crate and the fact that the drinker is far more visible than it was on the old wicker baskets.

 

Additionally on the units we have purchased the roof does not allow sunlight to penetrate inside other than through the clear sky lights, however as these can be opened then they actually assist in letting warm air escape at roof level.

 

To conclude, whilst I accept that dehydration could be a major contributory factor regards poor racing and returns my view is that , certainly within the new Geraldy,s that we have purchased in Lanarkshire , then I have not witnessed birds staggering or losing balance due to dehydration and that contrary to your view , environmental conditions within the new units are far more conducive to successful racing than they previously were on the old conventional unit, after all they are designed and built in Germany ( Vorsprung Dorch Technique ) and all that

 

Here endeth the sermon for today.

 

Davie

Cracking post davy

[Wiley]

I've read the letter, and what worried me was that Sprint pigeons had been returning with muddy feet and staggering as tho there dehydrated. IMO this shouldn't be happening from sprint events unless they are complete smashes

 

I use these transporters 3-4 times a year for middle to long distance events where there's a minimum of two nights in the basket, and the condition the birds have returned is 5 star. The only time I've had later birds arrive with mud, and staggering is when they've returned from 400-500 miles, but they've never been my first birds back.

 

Personally I think these transporters are state of the art and excellent.

[tiger]

tiger

do you actually know the temperatures of the inside of the crates when the birds are in there? My point is that pigeons should never be subjected to temperatures exceeding 25c. I have no interest in the material used in the crates providing that the birds have ventilation and water and that he temperatures are never allowed to go about 25c. The point about the droppings giving off fumes is also well made terbecause the fumes will deprive the birds of the oxygen they need to stay fit and healthy. People have been trying to guess as to why we lose so many pigeons. I think I have pointed out some serious areas of concern. If pigeon fanciers choose to ignore what are proven facts then I think they are both irresponsible and stupid. If we are prepared to exploit pigeons for sport surely they deserve to be cared for in a responsible way.

no I don't know the temperatures in side the crates but what I can tell you ive taken our motor down two race points many times and the pigeons are very content in side the crates, and if the truth be told I would rather my birds went in these crates than wicker

[Guest Owen]

At last we have a serious debate going. I will try to give you my answers to the points made later today but I have to make one very serious point here. Some of my answers will have to be that I don't know the proper answer. I am not prepared to speculate or argue about something if I am not sure.

I have not spoken out about this subject not to cause mischief or to preach to anyone. I want to try to release as many facts as is possible to clear this situation so that we can try to discover why we are having such serious losses. The figure of 25c came from two eminent Vets and not from me. If we can work out the best way to transport our birds so that they can engage in races rather than the endurance events that pass for races on many occasions these days I will be delighted. As to the point about the effects of heat on the pigeons, we can get to the bottom of that quite easily by recording what happens at given temperatures. I have a data recorder which will record the internal temperatures of crates at regular intervals so it will be possible to find out the truth about the internal temperatures of the crates. There are facts that we can rely on to start to uncover the best way to transport our birds so let us start there. If it proves that I am completely wrong and providing that we have examined this situation properly and thoroughly we will all have learned. However, for those who don't know me, the last thing I will do is to leave this situation hanging.

[greenlands]

There's a liberation on youtube showing the birds from inside the transporter,I was rather surprised at the poor condition of the birds feet etc. wet droppings not being absorbed due to the lack of shavings etc. :emoticon-0138-thinking:

 

The first thing that most old timers do is claim a corner and settle in the shaving,no shavings and settling on to wet aluminium ? leaves a bit to be desired.

[OLDYELLOW]

When had my roof top box I had floor grills in them aluminium / perspex baskets , best baskets I've ever had for training my birds and if was on a wagon with floor grills be fine , as for heat most these Geraldy wagons have good ventilation systems on them , the roof top box I had was never too hot and well vented if anything they'd of been a lot hotter in boot of car . Love or hate these baskets everyone will have a preference , I for one think there great having used them for quite a few years .Just have to ensure the birds are good enough to start of with , most look at racing problems to be everything else other than the birds in the basket , If birds are getting messed up in the baskets then solutions should be found to solve them like grills in bottom of boxes , gives birds something to grip to and cardboard in bottom will ensure droppings dry better . I've actually asked Geraldy for a price on 3 baskets as that's all I ever used and think there probably best basket on market .

[mushroom]

I don't think the loft temperature and the transporter temperature can be compared, in a 16x8 loft you may have 30 pigeons, the same space on the transporter could have upwards of 1000 birds, possibly 1500, so the oxygen intake for both would be very different.

[Guest Gareth Rankin]

Owen, having read a lot of your contributions on Basics then much of what you write is well informed and sensible, however having read your letter in the BHW and the above post regards this subject I believe some of your opinions are ill conceived, I would add that my own federation has prior to the 2013 season purchased two Geraldy transporters which, having now used these for a season are in my opinion vastly superior to the old conventional units, and this is coming from myself who had some reservations on this point.

To take you up on a few points , you advise that pigeons should not be subjected to temps above 25oC, this is an every day occurrence at the loft during spells of good weather, their is no doubt that when exercised they don't like this but they do cope with it pretty well , however I assume that you are referring to when they are in the transporter, FYI, I am not saying that transporters with aircon do not exist but all of the units that I have seen in fact do not have aircon,they have forced mechanical ventilation where fresh air is discharged into each individual crate via a supply air plenum which is part of the crate racking structure, having considered that aircon ( mechanical cooling ) is in fact not installed then the only cooling that is available is free cooling from ambient outside air , which if at or above 25oC is non existent then the best you can do is ventilate as efficiently as you can within the design constraints of the installed ventilation system. With regards aircon a subject I know a bit about then personally I would be dead against this being deployed on a transporter, No1 given that on a hot day with ambient air being lets say 25oC then the air temp within the transporter could be many degrees above this , if mechanically chilled air were then discharged onto the birds you would certainly get thermal shock which would not do the birds any favours at all. No2 , given that the air temp within the transporter would certainly be 25oC + and would be laden with moisture due to respiration and birds panting in an effort to cool themselves then the last thing you would want to do is introduce chilled or cooled air , you may not be aware of this but on fully conditioned aircon systems the desired comfort relative humidity would generally be 50% RH , if RH is above this and dehumidification is needed then this is achieved by cooling below the dew point which drops the moisture from the air , this forms as condensation and is normally removed, however if you apply this to a pigeon transported then I can guarantee you that the unit would be swimming with water which again I'm sure you can imagine would not be conducive to maintaining condition health or form in racing birds, again I reiterate IMO the best you can do is ventilate as efficiently as possible and for the above reasons no mechanical cooling should be used in an effort to keep the temperature below 25oC

 

I also note your statement regards fumes from droppings and that you have no interest in what materials are used to dress the crates, again i do not agree with this, my view is that in order to prevent a build up of fumes and to stop the droppings sticking to the birds feet then in addition to the base cardboard it is essential that a dressing of easibed or similar is applied on top of the cardboard to absorb moisture from the droppings in an effort to dry them out as much as possible , preventing a build of fumes and at the same time stopping these droppings clogging on the birds feet and possibly fouling the feed depending on how they are fed

 

With regards the crates themselves in my experience having watched the birds when water was given at the club hut prior to being loaded then I have never previously in almost 50 years seen birds locating the drinker and drinking so well and this even with YB,s, I put this down to both the length of the drinker which covers the full width of the crate and the fact that the drinker is far more visible than it was on the old wicker baskets.

 

Additionally on the units we have purchased the roof does not allow sunlight to penetrate inside other than through the clear sky lights, however as these can be opened then they actually assist in letting warm air escape at roof level.

 

To conclude, whilst I accept that dehydration could be a major contributory factor regards poor racing and returns my view is that , certainly within the new Geraldy,s that we have purchased in Lanarkshire , then I have not witnessed birds staggering or losing balance due to dehydration and that contrary to your view , environmental conditions within the new units are far more conducive to successful racing than they previously were on the old conventional unit, after all they are designed and built in Germany ( Vorsprung Dorch Technique ) and all that

 

Here endeth the sermon for today.

 

Davie

Very good post Davie.

[tyson]

one thing thats not been mentioned is the amount of birds being put in crates/ baskets omo the less the better regarding pigeons getting access to drinkers olso less birds in baskets less heat build up in basket/crates

[Novice]

The main difference between metal and wooden crates is that metal is a good conductor of heat while wood is a poor conductor. If the temperature generated by the birds in the crates is greater than the temperature of the air surrounding them then metal crates will do a better job of equalising the temperatures by conducting the heat away from the birds while wood will not.

 

Personally I think the material of construction is well chosen.

[Guest Owen]

At the moment I have only seen opinions and comparisons that are not a true reflection of the actual situations. The only way we will unravel this situation is to establish what is measurable and what is opinion. We can measure the temperatures in the crates over an extended period of time easily. We can measure the returns from races by taking the number of birds clocked from the ETS sheets. OK some will argue that they will take the clock out early and others will want to include birds that return late but with reasonable co-operation it can be done. We can know the weather with ease. Even with this information we can start to gain knowledge about what is happening.

If there are going to be people who will argue about things that no-one can know such as the one about I like the crates because I don't lose birds training we will get nowhere. Then there is the idea that the temperatures in lofts can be compared to temperatures in the crates. It will only take a moments thought to realise that things are very different between those two things and comparisons are not valid.

Many of the arguments I have seen up to now have been in favour of the status quo. I find it hard to believe that anyone wants to carry on losing pigeons at the rate we are now so I want to examine possible causes and eliminate those that are not causing us the problem.

My own mind is made up. I want to find out why we are losing pigeons and put a stop to it if possible.

[walterboswell59]

one thing thats not been mentioned is the amount of birds being put in crates/ baskets omo the less the better regarding pigeons getting access to drinkers olso less birds in baskets less heat build up in basket/crates

deff agree with that tyson and if the losses had only occured since we started using aluminium crates then id say owen was on to something but that is not the case we had been having really bad losses using wicker baskets and feds that still use wicker baskets are still having bad losses so imo the problem cannot be the baskets and what swayed me was last year our fed birds were brought back after 5 or 6 days in the alu crates and were in great order the only thing i would say is id like to see a bit more bedding in them but thats just my preferance less birds and more bedding can only be good for the birds

[hotrod]

one thing thats not been mentioned is the amount of birds being put in crates/ baskets omo the less the better regarding pigeons getting access to drinkers olso less birds in baskets less heat build up in basket/crates

I agree 100% Peter. . Been saying it for years , but No one listens .

[knoxjn]

the letter stated that the temps at the top were higher due to the perspex roof geraldys have insulated roof panels to minimise this also we have a stat fitted to air the back of the motor once the temp reaches 25 degrees this can be adjusted to whatever req needed have personally never had any feedback from fed members about birds staggering around and believe me if this was the case they would let me know and rightly so the shutters are also ventilated to allow air throughput when travelling our birds are very happy in the aluminium crates and most mornings the motor is alive they can see out when the shutters are up and this also keeps them happy i personally think they are state of the art and defo the way forward

[geordie1234]

If your doo lands and its staggering about the landing board I would blame the doos constitution before the transporter to be honest