Kirkpatricks

[Wiley]

Aren't Jimmy Dalgleish birds Kirkpatrick based?

[dal2]

Stephen the kirkpatricks were well tried up in the far north did well at 500miles but when they were sent to 600mls they were never seen, but back ta the strain pure i bought a youngster off solway king in 1974 when he was 19 year old and one off london doo misty lady and 1 direct off double top,T kirkies he died in the early fifties thats more than 20 years when i bought them i would say well diluted, now Old yellow comes away we pure kirkpatricks 38 years later which takes it up ta 60 bloody years PURE your some stock man when did you start in the doos ? But steve your spot on yours are well diluted and the only way you can keep on with the strain, you start with and keep at the top is keeping the winning genes going into your birds inbreeding and crossing out but you dont expect ta throw any old bird off a pedigree and say its a kirkpatrick or busschaert etc down fall of many fanciers that try the 600miles ? Dont cross anything through your own birds unless there on par with your own birds and the only way to find that oot is the basket ? But always trust your own family if they are not letting you down , this strains have come up on these sites how many times with the same old story a strain is what you make of it as there all dollie mixtures NOW THATS A FACT ?

Of course ye are right walter aboot the strain being diluted but what I am saying is that they wer diluted original by the men who knew and flew them theirselves? Obviously if you kept a normal racing loft and bred of your stock without an outcross ye would end up with some dodgy specimens??

I love the idea of a fancier keeping faith in their family, I would think you have done the same?, especially as a distance family as the maturing rate is much diffo than a sprint family?

The Jansen family has bourne who many diffo strains??? Now all strains in their own right!

 

I have visited a fancier on many occasions who has a Kirkpatrick family and have handled generation upon generation of pigeons like peas in a pod but also crosses hanging about even in the loft of a fancier completely dedicated to the family of birds.

 

I cant comment much on 600+ racing as its outside my parameters in the Fechan but certainly get them well up to that!

 

He had them in some form,but through John Carmichael and Jimmy Callan not direct from Galabank lofts.

 

Mr Carmichaels wer a joy to behold but, as you say, not Kirkpatricks originally(Stirling springs to mind but would have to check)loads of fanciers, including myself, crossed the kirkpatricks with Johns birds but we had little success racing tho cleaned up at the shows!!

 

By the way great thread.

 

Did Mr Wortley not take Emil McCartons birds ped back near 60yrs thru Thomson Bros etc?? I know its only paper that a man has written on but still!!!

[Rooster J. Cogburn]

Mr Carmichaels wer a joy to behold but, as you say, not Kirkpatricks originally(Stirling springs to mind but would have to check)loads of fanciers, including myself, crossed the kirkpatricks with Johns birds but we had little success racing tho cleaned up at the shows!!

 

By the way great thread.

 

Did Mr Wortley not take Emil McCartons birds ped back near 60yrs thru Thomson Bros etc?? I know its only paper that a man has written on but still!!!

 

Seen some beautiful pictures of the Carmichael doos,got a youngster reported by Bobby Carruthers back in 2002.Was a nice wee visit but he didnae have too many of the old reds and mealies left at that time.

 

That Bill Wortley thing would be interesting to read.

 

Like they say-to know where your going it helps to know where you've been.Slightly less interesting than Emil McCartons doos is my actual family lines full ae travelling tinkers and cattle hoarders

[walterbmasson]

Walter I've got a record of Nan's Pride winning 1st. Open SNFC Nantes 628mls.

Yes billt i have still got records of storm queen 2nd ta nans pride but that was in 1966 and i can tell you george ritchie had the jimmy hamilton birds and jimmy had the ritchie and whytes and i have some related ta jimmys gold award ? 7715 one of the birds ritchie & whytes clearance sale was down through jimmys gold award and is through my own birds that what happens ta keep long distance strains going but they have ta be tried ta see if they can do what they are brought in for ? But when a loft takes in a bird and kept thats half that blood gone ,so just say you keep that going 10 years your looking for another ta replace it that is crossed and the blood is very weak after 20 years another 10years ???? funny thing is most of the strains are 60 years old and where did they come from before the strains were founded as it was

just when a bird won a top race that they made up a name , and then some one else wins with birds off that same birds call it another name too strains together and a champion is bred, that is another strain but out o the three strains there could be 3 from the same family one called black another white and one red this is just an example ? but billt a good stockman will hold the strain longer but i believe give a bird up ta 10 years old for breeding thats the best of it , then go ta its best racers back ta the inbred doos ta get the best oot o them for a few years , bit ta say ye have a strain of busschearts jan ardans janssens boizards verekes kirkpatricks is absolute rubbish ?

 

[DJWa]

Of course ye are right walter aboot the strain being diluted but what I am saying is that they wer diluted original by the men who knew and flew them theirselves? Obviously if you kept a normal racing loft and bred of your stock without an outcross ye would end up with some dodgy specimens??

I love the idea of a fancier keeping faith in their family, I would think you have done the same?, especially as a distance family as the maturing rate is much diffo than a sprint family?

The Jansen family has bourne who many diffo strains??? Now all strains in their own right!

 

I have visited a fancier on many occasions who has a Kirkpatrick family and have handled generation upon generation of pigeons like peas in a pod but also crosses hanging about even in the loft of a fancier completely dedicated to the family of birds.

 

I cant comment much on 600+ racing as its outside my parameters in the Fechan but certainly get them well up to that!

 

 

 

Mr Carmichaels wer a joy to behold but, as you say, not Kirkpatricks originally(Stirling springs to mind but would have to check)loads of fanciers, including myself, crossed the kirkpatricks with Johns birds but we had little success racing tho cleaned up at the shows!!

 

By the way great thread.

 

Did Mr Wortley not take Emil McCartons birds ped back near 60yrs thru Thomson Bros etc?? I know its only paper that a man has written on but still!!!

are you thinking of tam law steven

when i was there a few years ago

he had a loft out on its own full of red checkers and red grizzles

he said that they were kirkpatricks kept as pure as possable

 

as walter says there are no pure breeds now just a family based

on the old familys

[dal2]

Seen some beautiful pictures of the Carmichael doos,got a youngster reported by Bobby Carruthers back in 2002.Was a nice wee visit but he didnae have too many of the old reds and mealies left at that time.

 

That Bill Wortley thing would be interesting to read.

 

Like they say-to know where your going it helps to know where you've been.Slightly less interesting than Emil McCartons doos is my actual family lines full ae travelling tinkers and cattle hoarders

Billy Wortley was the speaker in 2010 nat presentation and it was all part of his speech Lewis, not sure if it was published mate!!

[walterbmasson]

He had them in some form,but through John Carmichael and Jimmy Callan not direct from Galabank lofts.

Lewis eddie mann fa johnshaven is one man that kept his birds pure for years was it the bit they stopped winning, myself and jakie ritchie used ta visit him on a regular basis, i said ta him that birds got an awfa bump on its heed , thats inbreeding ta much eddie,, na na loon ats brains a inbred doo get the right een and it will be the best, well i suppose if yer willing ta wait on it , well as every one knows he stuck it oot for a lang time i heard he crossed a few years back and he had some good results ?

[Rooster J. Cogburn]

Billy Wortley was the speaker in 2010 nat presentation and it was all part of his speech Lewis, not sure if it was published mate!!

 

Enjoy the presentation tomorrow night Stevie

 

Lewis eddie mann fa johnshaven is one man that kept his birds pure for years was it the bit they stopped winning, myself and jakie ritchie used ta visit him on a regular basis, i said ta him that birds got an awfa bump on its heed , thats inbreeding ta much eddie,, na na loon ats brains a inbred doo get the right een and it will be the best, well i suppose if yer willing ta wait on it , well as every one knows he stuck it oot for a lang time i heard he crossed a few years back and he had some good results ?

 

I once saw a sore inbred youngster at ringing age at the loft of a top national flier local to me.The bird had two back toes on each foot

[billt]

Enjoy the presentation tomorrow night Stevie

 

 

 

I once saw a sore inbred youngster at ringing age at the loft of a top national flier local to me.The bird had two back toes on each foot

Was that the one that was called Champion Toey

[andy Burgess]

Was that the one that was called Champion Toey

well picked up pal

[Rooster J. Cogburn]

Was that the one that was called Champion Toey

[Guest Owen]

Yes it is right that I have no idea of where the originals went and I certainly have no idea of how they were treated down the 58 or so years since the death of the man who made this wonderful family. There are some things that I do know however. If people bought groups of these birds and tried to breed with them in a way that would keep them pure by now they would be seriously inbred. That may not be a problem providing that every bird was tested as to it's ability as a racer and only bred from if it could show it's ability on the road. It is also true to say that each new owner would be flying in different competition and probably under different conditions and more importantly would use different criteria for selection. This would automatically mean that although the birds came from a common stock in a short time they would become changed and would not conform as a family.

Common sense would tell you that the modern Kirkpatricks will be genetically changed from the birds that were kept by Kirkpatrick if only from the fact that there would have been many crosses made down the years. I don't doubt that many of the birds referred to as Kirkpatricks are excellent racers but to call them by the founder's name, to me, is crazy.

In regard to my opinion that modern pigeons are better than the birds kept years ago. I know from personal experience that most of the long races flown in the 60's were 2 day races whereas today we will expect birds on the day of liberation. The one thing that I find is much worse than years ago is the fact that people today think that it is acceptable to breed from birds that have done nothing and that success can be introduced to the loft by buying birds. And I accept that we all have to buy birds in from time to time but the ones that many people buy are from adverts which start with the Sire's name because the bird for sale has never left the loft. The other type of bird that is often offered for sale is the ones that start with, and bred for stock. I know we all have different ideas on selection but if a bird is destined for the stock loft surely is should be of proven ability.

The main things I find that are better about today is the fact that we are better educated about the health requirements of the birds. Unfortunately many people have thought it right to use antibiotics when they should not have done but I believe that that sort of problem is decreasing.

Sorry but I got the name of Dordin's house wrong. I should have looked it up but neglected to do so. However I think I might have made my point.

In conclusion, I have to say that the sort of views I have expressed above could just as well be applied to many other named families of pigeons where the original lofts no longer exist.

[walterbmasson]

Yes it is right that I have no idea of where the originals went and I certainly have no idea of how they were treated down the 58 or so years since the death of the man who made this wonderful family. There are some things that I do know however. If people bought groups of these birds and tried to breed with them in a way that would keep them pure by now they would be seriously inbred. That may not be a problem providing that every bird was tested as to it's ability as a racer and only bred from if it could show it's ability on the road. It is also true to say that each new owner would be flying in different competition and probably under different conditions and more importantly would use different criteria for selection. This would automatically mean that although the birds came from a common stock in a short time they would become changed and would not conform as a family.

Common sense would tell you that the modern Kirkpatricks will be genetically changed from the birds that were kept by Kirkpatrick if only from the fact that there would have been many crosses made down the years. I don't doubt that many of the birds referred to as Kirkpatricks are excellent racers but to call them by the founder's name, to me, is crazy.

In regard to my opinion that modern pigeons are better than the birds kept years ago. I know from personal experience that most of the long races flown in the 60's were 2 day races whereas today we will expect birds on the day of liberation. The one thing that I find is much worse than years ago is the fact that people today think that it is acceptable to breed from birds that have done nothing and that success can be introduced to the loft by buying birds. And I accept that we all have to buy birds in from time to time but the ones that many people buy are from adverts which start with the Sire's name because the bird for sale has never left the loft. The other type of bird that is often offered for sale is the ones that start with, and bred for stock. I know we all have different ideas on selection but if a bird is destined for the stock loft surely is should be of proven ability.

The main things I find that are better about today is the fact that we are better educated about the health requirements of the birds. Unfortunately many people have thought it right to use antibiotics when they should not have done but I believe that that sort of problem is decreasing.

Sorry but I got the name of Dordin's house wrong. I should have looked it up but neglected to do so. However I think I might have made my point.

In conclusion, I have to say that the sort of views I have expressed above could just as well be applied to many other named families of pigeons where the original lofts no longer exist.

Owen its very simple to see where this sport is dying ? people come into it and ask for the advice for where to go ta buy good stock and they are told about these non existence familys of birds , when they should be advised ta spend there money on purchasing direct off the birds that have won the event s but not any of that 100mile to 200 miles rubbish if they are going ta fly 4 ta 5 or 600 mile races and not these phoney pedigrees that has one or 2 that are distant relatives of a winner on it , and put a photo of a bird that has not done a bloody thing no wonder people are fed up after buying what they think is good birds ,and cant even get them home fanciers on these sites saying this is a bargain , but would not buy them thereselves ? owen the dordin family was very sought after if some on here can remember , louella at one time sold the dordins and bought the best from dordin and of course the cheat roy wintons bionic dordins what happened overnight all the dordins in massrallas were put down didnt want the bad name ? But OWEN THE AMOUNT OF FANCIERS THAT HAS TOLD ME THEY HAVE BOUGHT THESE SUPPOSED CHAMPION BIRDS FOR THOUSANDS AND FINISHED UP KILLING THEM IS THIS NOT KILLING THE HOBBY ? Only about too months ago i got one of our feds members birds from banff in i phoned him i had it he told me they were supposed ta be great birds he bought 6 of them for a hundred pounds each and he had 2 left well he killed that one i got in as it was let off a couple of miles from his loft and it came straight back ta me , 600 quid money well spent its a JOKE ?

[Guest Owen]

Well Walter I think we are on the same page. I think that Pigeon Racing is dogged by fantasy and superstition most of which suits the people who are in to making money from those who are willing to believe the rubbish that they churn out. The business of convincing people to believe in families that never existed because the original owners crossed their birds rather than keeping them pure suites the dealers and sellers of dreams. It is obvious that there are plenty of people out there that actually believe this rubbish. I can not believe how stupid people are when they will buy up birds that have never flown a yard from parents that have never flown a yard. And when I see the advert that says "Bred for Stock" I know that someone is trying to kid someone. If these birds offered for sale are worth their salt they would shine as racers so the fact that they are kept in the loft should ring a few bells but they don't seem to.

I know people who buy birds regularly and year after year they carry on losing birds and getting nowhere but off they go again the following year and do the same again. I hear people talking about Logans, Busshaerts, Janssens Kirkpatricks and goodness knows what else. A lot of them have been purchased from Sellers or Dealers and will guarantee to disappoint.

I got into Pigeon Racing in 1997 and just like plenty of others I fell for the pretty pictures painted by the Sellers and I thought that there were strains of pigeons that specialised at certain distances. So bought the birds. And like thousands of others I got nowhere. My breakthrough came when I went to a sale of birds where the Owner was packing in. He had put the prize cards on the pens proving that his birds had been raced successfully. What a difference. I bred decent birds straight away and went from looking at the race results from the bottom up to getting within range of the winners.

These days I specialise in sprint racing and all my racers are crosses because I pair them on the basis of the results they achieve. If I wanted to bring birds into my team I would definitely not be interested in those birds named after long dead Fanciers or birds from non racers. And in any case any bird that comes here would either have to have a proven excellent race record or else come as a youngster which would mean a period on the road to confirm that it is capable of winning races.

None of this stuff is "Rocket Science" it is just plain old "Common Sense".

[Kyleakin Lofts]

Where can I buy some pure Kirkpatrick / Dordin crosses?

[geordie1234]

Where can I buy some pure Kirkpatrick / Dordin crosses?

Fishing rod away you lol :emoticon-0136-giggle:

[Guest Owen]

I think you can find them with the Busschaert, Janssen Hoffman and Logans. They are on a Cloud somewhere in someone's imagination.

[DJWa]

Well Walter I think we are on the same page. I think that Pigeon Racing is dogged by fantasy and superstition most of which suits the people who are in to making money from those who are willing to believe the rubbish that they churn out. The business of convincing people to believe in families that never existed because the original owners crossed their birds rather than keeping them pure suites the dealers and sellers of dreams. It is obvious that there are plenty of people out there that actually believe this rubbish. I can not believe how stupid people are when they will buy up birds that have never flown a yard from parents that have never flown a yard. And when I see the advert that says "Bred for Stock" I know that someone is trying to kid someone. If these birds offered for sale are worth their salt they would shine as racers so the fact that they are kept in the loft should ring a few bells but they don't seem to.

I know people who buy birds regularly and year after year they carry on losing birds and getting nowhere but off they go again the following year and do the same again. I hear people talking about Logans, Busshaerts, Janssens Kirkpatricks and goodness knows what else. A lot of them have been purchased from Sellers or Dealers and will guarantee to disappoint.

I got into Pigeon Racing in 1997 and just like plenty of others I fell for the pretty pictures painted by the Sellers and I thought that there were strains of pigeons that specialised at certain distances. So bought the birds. And like thousands of others I got nowhere. My breakthrough came when I went to a sale of birds where the Owner was packing in. He had put the prize cards on the pens proving that his birds had been raced successfully. What a difference. I bred decent birds straight away and went from looking at the race results from the bottom up to getting within range of the winners.

These days I specialise in sprint racing and all my racers are crosses because I pair them on the basis of the results they achieve. If I wanted to bring birds into my team I would definitely not be interested in those birds named after long dead Fanciers or birds from non racers. And in any case any bird that comes here would either have to have a proven excellent race record or else come as a youngster which would mean a period on the road to confirm that it is capable of winning races.

None of this stuff is "Rocket Science" it is just plain old "Common Sense".

 

owen i dont agree with the part where you say a bird bought for stock should of shined as a racer

ive found that in a nest of 2 hens sometimes one races very well and the others no good

the one who races doesnt leave anything behind of any worth

but the bad racer breeds good birds

an old saying ive heard a lot is that when raceing/training all your y/bs

you generally lose your best breeders and retain your best racers

obviously some are duel, and both breed and race well

you will also find that birds are bred off good birds solely for stock

sometimes brother to sister then crossed off them to produce racers

this i know to be fact, for some very good long distance fanciers

[cemetary]

Walter I've got a record of Nan's Pride winning 1st. Open SNFC Nantes 628mls.

 

 

Now thats what i call a doo, who owned Nans Pride.

[peter pandy]

Now thats what i call a doo, who owned Nans Pride.

J.H.

[cemetary]

J.H.

 

 

What a doo and what a performance, what was the birdage for the winner, and well over 600 miles tae, great bird.

[Guest Owen]

DJWa

I have heard that sort of thing many times and I am sure that what you say has actually happened somewhere at sometime. However, the idea behind this thinking is very poor because if someone wanted to proceed like this they would be breeding from every bird they bred. I believe that one important reason why pigeon racing is falling apart is because people insist on breeding from untried and untested birds continually.

As far as I am concerned all birds should be tested and this should form the basis of the value placed upon them as breeders. I think it is fine to use hens that are the daughters of well proven Sires providing that they are paired to proven cocks. The reason I say this is because I think that if hens are subjected to too much strain I feel that it can adversely affect their ability as breeders. However where cocks are concerned I will give no ground at all. They must provide proof that they can win races on a consistent basis.

I often hear of people who tell me that they will not complete the youngbird programme because they want to save their birds for next year. We have people who think like that where I live. My view is very different because my own birds must fly in every race up to the coast because as sprint birds this is the competition that they must qualify in. I certainly would not be interested in birds that will not show me that they can produce good results at these distances.

If you have any doubt about the best method of breeding birds that can perform just take a look at the race horse pedigrees. Two things stand out. The first is that not all mares are asked to race but they are all from top sires. And the second thing that stands out is that mares that produce top colts once often do it again whereas mares that can not produce worthwhile offspring rarely manage it at all. If you read through the results of the Top Sires breeding you will see that they can produce close to 50% of their progeny to win. Due to the fact that pigeon breeding has been so poorly managed we can not come close to figures like that but I hope in due course things will improve.

My own conclusion to all this is to use the Bull System of breeding where I can mate my best performing cocks to up to 10 hens at the same time and to use the hens that have top cocks as sires. So typically my youngsters will have at least two winning birds in their immediate ancestry and sometimes more. In practical terms whereas I used to lose anything up to 2/3 and more of my crop of youngsters in the season I have now got my loses down to around 1/4. The real improvement is with the results which have improved beyond recognition. In conclusion I think that the quicker we can get rid of the idea that strains named after long dead Fanciers are able to compete in current races unless of course they are in the hands of people who continually breed from proven stock the better. And again there is an urgent need to convince people that breeding from birds that are from untried stock is a gamble that might not be worth taking. At the very least Stud Cocks must be of the best and even if a person can only afford one it is better than messing about with a bunch of clowns that will never amount to anything.

[billt]

Now thats what i call a doo, who owned Nans Pride.

 

Also 6th open Vaux Usher International Nantes, 6,700 birds, flying 80-100 miles further than the first 5

[cemetary]

DJWa

I have heard that sort of thing many times and I am sure that what you say has actually happened somewhere at sometime. However, the idea behind this thinking is very poor because if someone wanted to proceed like this they would be breeding from every bird they bred. I believe that one important reason why pigeon racing is falling apart is because people insist on breeding from untried and untested birds continually.

As far as I am concerned all birds should be tested and this should form the basis of the value placed upon them as breeders. I think it is fine to use hens that are the daughters of well proven Sires providing that they are paired to proven cocks. The reason I say this is because I think that if hens are subjected to too much strain I feel that it can adversely affect their ability as breeders. However where cocks are concerned I will give no ground at all. They must provide proof that they can win races on a consistent basis.

I often hear of people who tell me that they will not complete the youngbird programme because they want to save their birds for next year. We have people who think like that where I live. My view is very different because my own birds must fly in every race up to the coast because as sprint birds this is the competition that they must qualify in. I certainly would not be interested in birds that will not show me that they can produce good results at these distances.

If you have any doubt about the best method of breeding birds that can perform just take a look at the race horse pedigrees. Two things stand out. The first is that not all mares are asked to race but they are all from top sires. And the second thing that stands out is that mares that produce top colts once often do it again whereas mares that can not produce worthwhile offspring rarely manage it at all. If you read through the results of the Top Sires breeding you will see that they can produce close to 50% of their progeny to win. Due to the fact that pigeon breeding has been so poorly managed we can not come close to figures like that but I hope in due course things will improve.

My own conclusion to all this is to use the Bull System of breeding where I can mate my best performing cocks to up to 10 hens at the same time and to use the hens that have top cocks as sires. So typically my youngsters will have at least two winning birds in their immediate ancestry and sometimes more. In practical terms whereas I used to lose anything up to 2/3 and more of my crop of youngsters in the season I have now got my loses down to around 1/4. The real improvement is with the results which have improved beyond recognition. In conclusion I think that the quicker we can get rid of the idea that strains named after long dead Fanciers are able to compete in current races unless of course they are in the hands of people who continually breed from proven stock the better. And again there is an urgent need to convince people that breeding from birds that are from untried stock is a gamble that might not be worth taking. At the very least Stud Cocks must be of the best and even if a person can only afford one it is better than messing about with a bunch of clowns that will never amount to anything.

 

 

Owen, you mention horses in what you have written,the thread is talking about doos, why go onto something that pigeon people havent a clue about, i mean horses, just for a short knote, what did the great horse Red Rum Breed,NOWT and thats a FACT. he was a racer and that was him. The Legend of PURE STRAINS of bird will go on for many a years. All Pigeons on the Darkness system should go fom the first race until the last race unless they are injured, JMO.

 

Also 6th open Vaux Usher International Nantes, 6,700 birds, flying 80-100 miles further than the first 5

 

 

WHO OWNED IT.

[billt]

Owen, you mention horses in what you have written,the thread is talking about doos, why go onto something that pigeon people havent a clue about, i mean horses, just for a short knote, what did the great horse Red Rum Breed,NOWT and thats a FACT. he was a racer and that was him. The Legend of PURE STRAINS of bird will go on for many a years. All Pigeons on the Darkness system should go fom the first race until the last race unless they are injured, JMO.

 

 

 

 

WHO OWNED IT.

I've no idea but I think his wife was called Nan