Young Bird Sickness

[Tony C]

thanks for the replys with your views,

 

when you see the signs of ybs,in your loft

 

could you explain the steps you take,

 

what you use,and your reasons for it,

 

thanks

 

atb

 

By far the most important thing is to rest them, no exercise. Some say to starve them for 24 hours at the first signs, I don't......... well not at the first signs anyway. I actually want them to regurgitate their feed for the others to eat, I try to encourage the whole team to go down with it at pretty much the same time. After 3 or 4 days I will fast them for 24hrs, the nest few days they'll be fed light, you'll know when to start feeding heavier and that's when they start tucking into their feed with their wings open. Worse case scenario is if a secondary infection takes hold and then a course of treatment has to be administered. What to treat them for (secondary infection) will differ from loft to loft....... never reach for Baytril, if they need this they wont be worth keeping.

[ALF]

It looks as if our yb sickness problem is slightly different from a lot of people on here we had problems with our ybs late may early June took us a couple of weeks to get it sorted but our ybs hudnae mixed so it happened in our loft but after that we never had any problems and our returns were pretty good from most of the yb races with no problems on returning from races

[Delboy]

It looks as if our yb sickness problem is slightly different from a lot of people on here we had problems with our ybs late may early June took us a couple of weeks to get it sorted but our ybs hudnae mixed so it happened in our loft but after that we never had any problems and our returns were pretty good from most of the yb races with no problems on returning from races

 

Ive had it at the start of May almost every time Alan, which helps because they have recovered before the season.

[William Reid]

Our pigeons eat/drink . And this is what will transpire next

.

The only thing to stop this would be a growth after the crop called ------ .

[MIK]

well holding corn and water in crop means something shut down....from that diagram Billy ...its the proventriculus or gizard that give way ...whats the big vets say ???

 

Mick

[William Reid]

well holding corn and water in crop means something shut down....from that diagram Billy ...its the proventriculus or gizard that give way ...whats the big vets say ???

 

Mick

What's the big vets say ??? .

When the growth in the crop ( CANKER) gets to a certain size only a small amount of goodness from feeding will pass through the proventriculus . At this stage this is when you will hear some guys saying that their pigeons are picking at droppings on the floor . WHY because the pigeon thinks that the problem is with the Gizard OMHO .

[peter pandy]

Well the original question was can we prevent YBS ?. Their has been quite a few differing posts yet none have mentioned the drinker.I cannot remember the last time I gave my birds water straight from the tap in the past 40 years after reading about CHLORINE..Perhaps this is the reason why some contract it and some dont. CHLORINE is in all drinking water and their must at some time when you have filled a kettle and smelt the gas from the water !. It is one of the reasons our family use "Brita" water filtration at home. My water for the birds is firstly put into a 10 Litre open plastic tub stirred vigorously and left for 24 Hours allowing the CLORINE GAS to escape into the atmosphere. Its really quite simple that if you fill your drinkers with tap water the Chlorine not only kills e'colli but all the good bacteria in the crop and gut if the tap water has an slightly excessive amount of Chlorine added at the pump station which seems to be a regular occurence. There are times especially when you know the water board workers have been working on the main pipes and all the brown gunk comes through when they are pressured up again and we have been drinking the stuff WELL my family and birds dont.

[KEVIN ELLIOTT]

Well the original question was can we prevent YBS ?. Their has been quite a few differing posts yet none have mentioned the drinker.I cannot remember the last time I gave my birds water straight from the tap in the past 40 years after reading about CHLORINE..Perhaps this is the reason why some contract it and some dont. CHLORINE is in all drinking water and their must at some time when you have filled a kettle and smelt the gas from the water !. It is one of the reasons our family use "Brita" water filtration at home. My water for the birds is firstly put into a 10 Litre open plastic tub stirred vigorously and left for 24 Hours allowing the CLORINE GAS to escape into the atmosphere. Its really quite simple that if you fill your drinkers with tap water the Chlorine not only kills e'colli but all the good bacteria in the crop and gut if the tap water has an slightly excessive amount of Chlorine added at the pump station which seems to be a regular occurence. There are times especially when you know the water board workers have been working on the main pipes and all the brown gunk comes through when they are pressured up again and we have been drinking the stuff WELL my family and birds dont.

 

PETER

YOU COULD BE RIGHT THERE

I DO NOT GIVE MY BIRDS FRESH WATER I HAVE GALLON CONTAINERS

I FILL AND LEAVE THEM WHEN I HAVE TO FILL THEM UP AND PUT THEM

AT THE END SO THEY ARE LAST AND SO ON NEVER FRESH WATER OUT OF

A TAP I HAVE DONE THIS FOR YEARS NOW SOME TIMES I ONLY TOP UP

THE DRINKERS THE NEXT DAY THE OLD BIRDS ARE ON THE 2,5 LT BOTTLE

DRINKERS I ONLY FILL THEM WHEN THEY NEED IT WHICH IS 2 OR 3 DAYS

AT A TIME SO YOU COULD BE ON TO SOME THING THERE MATE

[William Reid]

. 5 October 2015 - 00:03 AM

Hope this works have been trying to take a photo of roxy the last couple of nights but she likes to fight anything that's pointed at her . Just finished filling my watering can for my pigeons for tomorrow when roxy decided to take part managed to get three photos before she got the iPad :emoticon-0136-giggle: .

Attached Image.

 

 

Sorry but think 2 of the photos removed .

 

This is from an old post thought it strange nobody asked about the water

[Wiley]

Talking about water, ive found i still get young bird sickness, my process with water is i have 7 two litre bottles, all with the lids off, that is used only for the racers old birds and young birds. When the water is used it is refilled and put at the back of the queue, which means it will be used again at least 48 hours after being filled, as i use 4 litres roughly a day for old cocks, old hens and young birds. Ive been doing this for a number of years and ive been a young bird sickness sufferer for more then 15 plus.

[Roland]

Well the original question was can we prevent YBS ?. Their has been quite a few differing posts yet none have mentioned the drinker.I cannot remember the last time I gave my birds water straight from the tap in the past 40 years after reading about CHLORINE..Perhaps this is the reason why some contract it and some dont. CHLORINE is in all drinking water and their must at some time when you have filled a kettle and smelt the gas from the water !. It is one of the reasons our family use "Brita" water filtration at home. My water for the birds is firstly put into a 10 Litre open plastic tub stirred vigorously and left for 24 Hours allowing the CLORINE GAS to escape into the atmosphere. Its really quite simple that if you fill your drinkers with tap water the Chlorine not only kills e'colli but all the good bacteria in the crop and gut if the tap water has an slightly excessive amount of Chlorine added at the pump station which seems to be a regular occurence. There are times especially when you know the water board workers have been working on the main pipes and all the brown gunk comes through when they are pressured up again and we have been drinking the stuff WELL my family and birds dont.

 

Chlorine obviously kill good bacteria same as so - called bad. I do - often as Wiley and you Peter. Sometimes I don't. Any difference? Of course because the bacteria has a chance to expand and do their jobs.

You know, - must be a different topic and under a different heading, but just who, and how, besides why does one decide what is good bacteria and so - called bad, and WHO! Further what harm is done, and aren't bacteria GOOD for the immune system? How can one let them achieve Immunity is we keep destroying the very essence of what is needed. A point to ailments and Possibly y/b's sicknext in the content that many fail to ward it off.

[peter pandy]

Talking about water, ive found i still get young bird sickness, my process with water is i have 7 two litre bottles, all with the lids off, that is used only for the racers old birds and young birds. When the water is used it is refilled and put at the back of the queue, which means it will be used again at least 48 hours after being filled, as i use 4 litres roughly a day for old cocks, old hens and young birds. Ive been doing this for a number of years and ive been a young bird sickness sufferer for more then 15 plus.

 

Yes, I know the type of bottles you use and to be perfectly honest I dont believe removing the top lets enough Chlorine Gas escape into the atmosphere. Perhaps using a bucket would, and will make a differance.

[Wiley]

What about the chloramine which cannot be removed by boiling or allowing to stand of? Could it be the reason why some american fanciers and an australian pigeon vet suggest the use of ascorbic acid??? Something to think about

[dal2]

Am off tae buy some highland spring lol

[Roland]

You know, when we speak about ourselves 'Wrapping Up' OR 'keeping Fit, dieting etc. Taking care about prescriptions, what food or drink is good for us and what's not! ABOVE all 'Staying fit and healthy' ... also in same aspects to pets, race horses etc. etc. What does one hope to achieve? Nothing if not helping our immune system and giving it a head start if possible. PREVENTION yes? ! Like wise with our pigeons, and too much, too often is undermined by our very selves.

[yeboah]

By far the most important thing is to rest them, no exercise. Some say to starve them for 24 hours at the first signs, I don't......... well not at the first signs anyway. I actually want them to regurgitate their feed for the others to eat, I try to encourage the whole team to go down with it at pretty much the same time. After 3 or 4 days I will fast them for 24hrs, the nest few days they'll be fed light, you'll know when to start feeding heavier and that's when they start tucking into their feed with their wings open. Worse case scenario is if a secondary infection takes hold and then a course of treatment has to be administered. What to treat them for (secondary infection) will differ from loft to loft....... never reach for Baytril, if they need this they wont be worth keeping.

Can't agree on the Baytril statement

If used and not abused finest antibiotic for saving a pigeons life

Squills 2016

Page 56-64

Top of page 64

That one was worth keeping 2nd open Gold cup then 1st open gold cup

I have had youngsters poorly on a Monday and winning on a Saturday with its use years ago when they suffered from respiratory ,do not have that problem now

I do not use baytril for ybs

But it should never be knocked unless it is being administered incorrectly

No offence intended

Atb

[Tony C]

Can't agree on the Baytril statement

If used and not abused finest antibiotic for saving a pigeons life

Squills 2016

Page 56-64

Top of page 64

That one was worth keeping 2nd open Gold cup then 1st open gold cup

I have had youngsters poorly on a Monday and winning on a Saturday with its use years ago when they suffered from respiratory ,do not have that problem now

I do not use baytril for ybs

But it should never be knocked unless it is being administered incorrectly

No offence intended

Atb

None taken at all.

All to often I hear fanciers reaching for Baytril to cure y/b/s when in fact they're more than likely to compound the problem rather than cure it.

[big blue bar]

we havn't had YBS for a couple of seasons now , noticed some of the first symptoms mentioned , them not interested in coming in after flying out another to look out for is green slimy droppings , we must deal with it at the earliest stage possible .if they get as far as the throwing up stage they need to be removed that is if you can see which bird is doing the throwing up . not wanting to say I have the miracle cure ( to stong a statement ) but worked for us and its not a pigeon product that you pay an arm and a leg for , not going to post it on an open post , and for the record we fly our young birds , winning all ybird trophys points ave and all the local 2bird races this past year not as good the returns as we would of liked but there was other problems in the skys this year more than previous years

[Roland]

None taken at all.

All to often I hear fanciers reaching for Baytril to cure y/b/s when in fact they're more than likely to compound the problem rather than cure it.

 

I think Tony, along with incense breeding for destroying the immune system and their' ability to fight and ward of ailments, reaching for the bottle and pill box, you have hit the nail on the head explained it in a nut shell. Fanciers have, and still are, the biggest enemy of their' pigeons and the fancy. Hence them being unable to fight or ward of such and y/b's sickness. Further most like helped to make it such a force now to reckon with now.

[Roland]

2 years back now in regards Y/B sickness - I wonder if any progress has been made.

 

Via Gordon Chambers:

 

Recently, the International Federation (FCI) based in Brussels has asked interested fanciers (as many as possible) from its member countries to complete a 25-question survey on their experiences with Young Bird Sickness (YBS). (Is the CU a member of the FCI?) In 2013,YBS was - not at all a surprise - endemic across large parts of Europe, with birds in some areas less affected than others. Fanciers whose birds hadn't been affected by YBS were also asked to complete this survey. Apparently the results will help the Veterinary Commission of the FCI with its ongoing investigation into YBS. Four internationally known veterinarians (including Dr H DeWeerd) who specialize in the health of pigeons are involved in this Commission which is led by the vice president of the FCI.

Interested fanciers on the AC site can view the questions in this survey at www.rpra.org. I assume that some time after this survey, which ends in mid September, the Veterinary Commission will eventually report on its findings and possibly its recommendations (if any).

 

 

Then further via Gordon:

 

I agree that the questions in the survey seem to be pretty general but they may be a start in some more active probing into this condition. I continue to have concerns into all this general focus on E. coli in particular. Most strains of this organism are entirely innocent and are a normal part of the intestinal flora, so without determining that the strains isolated from cases of YBS are really pathogenic, what is the point of making a big deal if the E. coli is recovered from droppings? Trouble is that when fanciers receive a lab report that indicates that E. coli was cultured from these droppings or from the routine culture of normal droppings from their healthy birds, too many become alarmed and assume that it is significant and begin unnecessary treatments with antibiotics to eliminate it. This just upsets the normal healthy balance of bacteria within the intestines which, in turn, makes the intestines more susceptible to disease. To my current knowledge, even the Belgians who study YBS don't seem to know if there is a particular strain or strains of E. coli associated with YBS, but maybe with the results of this survey, they may begin to get a handle this aspect of the disease. In the past I have contacted scientists in Belgium about the E. coli found when YBS occurs in youngsters, but no one at that time had any idea of specific strains of pathogenic E. coli in YBS. Maybe the results of the current survey will add more focus to the actual role - if any - of E. coli strains recovered from cases of YBS. Gord.

 

Now we know Ecoli takes 24 hours to bloom so to speak. We also know how easy it is in that 24 hours to eradicate it.

Food for thought?

[sammy]

A LOT OF GOOD COMMENTS REGARDING YBS BUT FOUND THIS WORTHWHILE HAVING A READ

 

 

My Experience with Pigeon Circovirus

 

By Clint Robertson

 

First let me give you some background about myself and my loft management. I have been successfully breeding and showing pigeons since 1974. Along with my sons we keep 50 pairs of Jacobins, 15 pairs of Voorburg Shield Croppers, 15 pairs of W.O.E.Ts, 6 pair of Flying Rollers, several pair of Helmets, 10 pair of Oriental Frills and 100 pairs of Racing Homers primarily as foster parents. All breeds are kept segregated and are housed in 25 different compartments in 10 separate lofts spread out over a large area in two different yards. We do not fly our birds. Our birds are never crowded, always dry and all birds have access to large open fly pens and lots of sunlight and fresh air with no drafts. Our fly pens are covered and only open to the south. We feed a balanced ration of whole grain most of which is grown locally and consists largely of hard red spring wheat, peas, whole corn with lesser amounts of canola, lentils, red millet, canary seed and sunflower. I also keep the birds on the Chisholm Trail program which provides lactobacillus as well as vitamins and is mixed with the feed. I use Red C which is a race horse supplement liquid rich in trace minerals and vitamins to mix in the feed so the Chisholm Trail powder sticks. I also provide fresh water daily and twice a day in warm weather. I give acid pack 4 way in the water every other day. This is a product used in weanling pigs and it increases the level of acidity in the gut to discourage harmful bacteria. It is the same idea as giving vinegar in the water but much better. This product also enhances absorption of nutrients, such as vitamins and minerals as well as medications given at the same time. I no longer use chlorine in the water as I now understand this will actually kill the beneficial gut bacteria that are so important for good health. I also provide oyster shell and grit at all times. I deworm my birds twice a year.

 

I feel all this information is important so it can be better understood how different lofts, different management systems and different breeds of pigeons can be affected differently by the same illness.

 

Our breeding season started off quite normally. We mated up our birds in late March when the weather started to turn nice and our birds appeared strong and healthy with no signs of illness. We had introduced several new birds in late January as well as a couple in late February from several different lofts in several different breeds. These birds had all been quarantined for a month and put on doxycycline** for 10 days as a precaution. They then all appeared healthy and were introduced to our population. We had also attended one show in January and our show birds were treated the same. Doxycycline is a powerful antibiotic but it is also quite expensive. It's best not to waste it. The best approach is to measure (or estimate) how much water the birds drink at one time (say, after feeding), place this amount of water in a drinker and add the doxy at the rate of 500 to 1000 mg per 4 litres of water. Let the birds drink this amount of water and that is the treatment for one day. Fresh water is supplied for the rest of the day. This antibiotic remains for a longer period in the system than other antibiotics, so only one treatment period per day is required. There is no need to leave doxy in the drinkers all day every day. Treatment period is about 5 days. Once the 5-day period is over, immediately follow up with several days of a good avian-source probiotic to restore populations of normal intestinal bacteria. This is very important because after every treatment with oral antibiotics, the intestine is highly susceptible to infection with disease-producing bacteria (because of the antibiotic destruction of normal protective bacteria.)

 

Things started out good however soon problems started to appear. Nothing serious it seemed but many little things that started to ad up to big problems. First fertility was not as good as it should have been and many of our hens were not laying. At first I blamed it on the weather and the fact that so many of our breeders were young and even late hatches from the previous year. The eggs that were fertile hatched very well and the young birds appeared strong at first. However soon I started having many babies that just stopped growing at about a week of age. I discovered a higher than normal occurrence of canker ( trichomaniasis ) appearing in the throat, navel and liver so I treated for that. Others seemed weak and survived but were not developing properly. I then started to have some young birds that were crippled when it was time to leave the nest. Their legs were stiff at the hock joints but there was no apparent swelling in the joints but some did have swelling in the ball of the foot. I saw others with stress lines on the feathers and they were not growing well. A few others had deformed toes when they hatched. Even more hens that were laying stopped but otherwise appeared healthy. Fertility went down and my old birds started to do a poor job feeding the youngsters. I began to see an increase in the incidence of Herpes Virus in the weaned babies (this appears as a wet yellow crust in the throat and sinuses) . Other young birds that were weaned started to go light. Nothing felt right. I could just feel it in my loft, something was really wrong. By this time I was losing about 50% of the babies I was hatching between banding and weaning with many different symptoms. However not a single old bird appeared sick or died. It was also interesting that the Racing Homers were not nearly as affected and most of the young Homers and Rollers hatched and went on to grow and develop normally. The Jacobins, Voorburgs and Frills seemed most affected. I then suspected Paratyphoid (Salmonella) but first I wanted to know for sure. In the past I had sent birds to labs for testing but the work done was never as thorough as I wanted. This time with the help of my own local vet and Dr. Gordon Chalmers we sent birds to two different labs for testing under experienced avian vets. The results showed no Salmonella in the birds I sent. What did show up was Pigeon Circovirus. The birds I sent had virtually no immune systems with no antibodies present. These birds were vulnerable to even the most common illnesses and that is what was killing them. My Vet told me this was like AIDS in pigeons and all of the natural immunities that my birds had developed over the years were not being passed on to the young birds due to the Circovirus destroying the ability of the young birds to pick up the antibodies from the parents and develop their own immune system. Common ailments that normally would not have affected my birds were killing the young ones. I was told that because my old birds were not stressed and were very healthy they were able to remain healthy. The only thing I did notice was the poor fertility and the hens not laying (by this time close to half of my hens were not laying).

 

I was informed that as most of you likely know we cannot treat a virus. Dr. Chalmers said that what I must do is treat the secondary illnesses as they appear and make sure that there is no additional stress on the birds. By this time I knew of at least three other lofts with similar problems to mine. I immediately started my birds on Baytril (active ingredient is 10% enrofloxacin ) for 14 days. (Correct dosage for this strength of Baytril is 5 to 7cc [one to one and a half teaspoons] per 4 litres of water.)Within 21 days almost all of my hens were laying and the fertility started to improve dramatically. The babies from that point on were strong and losses dropped to next to nothing and I was able to salvage the rest of the breeding season. This said to me that I must have had some type of bacteria present that was sensitive to enrofloxacin. Another breeder I know treated with Doxycycline and had equally good results and yet another who had not used any medications for years used Tetracycline 250 and had good results but only after he had lost most of his young birds. What needs to be stressed here is that without medicating many of the young will die. In one case a friend left it to run its course and was only losing young birds until the birds went into a heavy moult and then it turned cold. At that point the old birds started to die quickly. By simply putting them on Tetracycline he was able to save the rest. Of course it will totally depend upon what secondary illness is affecting the birds in order to know what to treat with. The other problem is you may not have time to get every sick bird tested before you have losses. It is important to have some knowledge of your own on illnesses and treatments, a good vet or at best a knowledgeable pigeon breeder you can consult. However nothing can compare to a properly done lab test to let you know exactly what you are dealing with. I am positive that there are many breeders who have been treating the secondary illnesses not realizing the underlying problem was Circovirus. Another interesting note is that those breeders who medicate more (and I am not saying that is a good or bad thing) would likely not even know if they had Circovirus because the meds would keep the secondary illnesses in check and temporarily replace the weak immune systems.

 

There is still not enough known about Circovirus. It can transfer through the eggs so by stopping breeding for a few months you should be able to stop the cycle. A veterinary contact of Dr. Chalmers in Belgium reported that he is not aware of a carrier state in pigeons for Circovirus. However a copy of a 2006 scientific paper obtained by Dr. Chalmers suggested that carriers may be possible in this disease. On that basis, carriers definitely cannot be ruled out. I know that without further medication all our birds are doing fine now. Circovirus has also been commonly referred to as young bird disease. I was also informed by Dr. Chalmers that if any birds have Circovirus at the time of vaccination it may limit the effectiveness of any vaccines they get by blocking the immune responses which create antibodies. (This is why some research opinions from Scotland suggest early vaccination against paramyxovirus (PMV) - beginning at 3-4 weeks of age (in racing pigeons) in the hopes of developing some level of immunity before the circovirus invades. Waiting until the YBs are several months of age before vaccinating stands the risk of having circovirus infect these youngsters and preventing the development of good immunity to PMV.)

 

The following information was recently sent to me by Dr. Chalmers and is from a 2006 article (from Belgium) that contained the following final comment, quote: "Although it is possible that some birds were infected, but not excreting (virus), at weaning, it is more probable that the majority of birds became infected in the rearing loft. As there is a generally high prevalence of circovirus infection in racing pigeons, as well as a high prevalence of infection in adult birds and embryos, it is likely to be extremely difficult to produce young pigeons free of circovirus infection. However, it is possible that reductions in the amount of infectious virus to which the young pigeons are exposed may help to reduce the severity of the effects of infection. Improved hygiene within the rearing loft may be the best way to achieve this."

 

It is now late May of 2010 and our birds have never appeared healthier. We have gone through the entire winter not having lost or medicated a single bird. We are now well into the breeding season and everything appears normal with hens laying regularly, good fertility and hatchability. The young birds are developing normally and we have more than 100 weaned in all breeds with no problems at all. We have not introduced any new birds. Anyone with questions can feel free to contact me any time.

 

I am hoping that by sharing this information with all fanciers I can help someone so they can react more quickly and learn from our experience. I would like to thank Dr. Gordon Chalmers for his assistance in preparing this article.

 

All print appearing in Italics is information submitted by Dr. Chalmers.

 

H