Snfc

[Kyleakin Lofts]

i know what your saying stu but cant see it happening spoke about this last year and nowt came of it

 

This combine that never happened because nobody would compromise.

 

No inland nationals and there would have to be compromise or middle distance racing would also be a thing of the past.

 

If the national pulls the inlands then the Feds have to combine for purely financial reasons.

[Big Davie]

That's prob because we were all going on different. Routes , plus it would help it work if there was no inland national races .or maybe just the one .

Stuart, you're right if the inland Nats were gone it would give the Feds the incentive to get together for joint convoying / combine / Amal racing, it's been done before when the sport was healthier and is a necessity now when the sport in decline

[geordie1234]

Lanarkshire offered feds the chance to go to the coast without the nats they never took the offer up so fully expect the fed to be on the snfc wagon next season

 

Inland nats are here to stay believe me, they are the biggest and most supported nat races end off

[VMS]

Lanarkshire offered feds the chance to go to the coast without the nats they never took the offer up so fully expect the fed to be on the snfc wagon next season

 

Inland nats are here to stay believe me, they are the biggest and most supported nat races end off

 

They are but have no place in a long distance club regardless of the revenue generated.4 channel races that's the way it should be IMO

[hotrod]

Lanarkshire offered feds the chance to go to the coast without the nats they never took the offer up so fully expect the fed to be on the snfc wagon next season

 

Inland nats are here to stay believe me, they are the biggest and most supported nat races end off

Yes they did geo but other Feds were going down a different route voted for by their members at their AGM,s , so it couldn't happen . Maybe if we all were going the same route it could happen .

[We man]

Lanarkshire offered feds the chance to go to the coast without the nats they never took the offer up so fully expect the fed to be on the snfc wagon next season

 

Inland nats are here to stay believe me, they are the biggest and most supported nat races end off

Agree with you Geordie we had the chance to all go together and never took it,now we will hear the same old p.sh again and it will never come to anything,to many would rather race against hundreds than test the birds against thousands,they blame the routes when really they are feart to race against thousands of birds,and the same feds will carry on doing what they done this year and next year because less birds to race against bigger chance to get a ticket just my opinion and that's what basics is for.??????? should say I am talking about the west side going up together as a combine,why not?

[hotrod]

Agree with you Geordie we had the chance to all go together and never took it,now we will hear the same old p.sh again and it will never come to anything,to many would rather race against hundreds than test the birds against thousands,they blame the routes when really they are feart to race against thousands of birds,and the same feds will carry on doing what they done this year and next year because less birds to race against bigger chance to get a ticket just my opinion and that's what basics is for.??????? should say I am talking about the west side going up together as a combine,why not?

We never took it because Glasgow and South Lanark went east and the rest went west ,this was AGM decisions , so couldn't be changed , if all were say going east next year then yes of course it makes sense to go together prob from about 200 on .

[dal2]

We never took it because Glasgow and South Lanark went east and the rest went west ,this was AGM decisions , so couldn't be changed , if all were say going east next year then yes of course it makes sense to go together prob from about 200 on .

East Stuart? Do you think thats the answer mate? I aint so sure

[hotrod]

East Stuart? Do you think thats the answer mate? I aint so sure

Yes mate have u no read my reasons ?????.

[dal2]

Yes mate have u no read my reasons ?????.

Ypres has the best returns? Lack of distance compared to rest?

Poor returns from other racepoints is not confined to west race points nor is it confined to channel races?True?

[hotrod]

Ypres has the best returns? Lack of distance compared to rest?

Poor returns from other racepoints is not confined to west race points nor is it confined to channel races?True?

Yes agree pal but it's the national races that we are talking about , a few years back the snfc went to Reims for the gold cup turned out a good race ,why did they want to move .??? Overfly simples. it's been a struggle since they moved it back to Central/west France . With very poor returns most races I would just like to try it out to see if my theory works.

[We man]

Most sensible programme that's been posted fair to all

Straight down the middle

Well done Davy

Agree 100%.

[dal2]

Yes agree pal but it's the national races that we are talking about , a few years back the snfc went to Reims for the gold cup turned out a good race ,why did they want to move .??? Overfly simples. it's been a struggle since they moved it back to Central/west France . With very poor returns most races I would just like to try it out to see if my theory works.

Fair play mate. I just wonder that if the south won out of turn from Belgium/Luxembourg what we as a fancy would do next?

[Belge]

Hi I've enjoyed this Topic started by DJK who is quickly becoming one of the top Distance Fanciers of our time.

 

Here is my own non Top Distance Fanciers view on the subject.... I will try to attach a map I've created to go with the text but if I can't attach it just open up Google Maps/Google Earth and toggle back and forth when you get to the relevant parts..

 

I am not someone who has the ability to regularly condition a racing pigeon to return from, never mind win prizes at the long distance channel races of our Scottish National race calendar. I have tried many times before and have only timed pigeons in race time from the channel about four times and on the day only twice. However like nearly every Pigeon Fancier I know I am fascinated by the Scottish National races and the way in which this type of racing defines individual fanciers as long distance experts, with their names, their winning birds names and their area of residence known by nearly everyone in the sport.

 

When I first started pigeons in the early 70’s everything seemed so straight forward with the vast majority of Scottish Federations racing home north, down what was called the ‘West’ route (more on that later) and the English and Welsh racing home south and mainly on the East. The only discussion I can remember surrounding the ‘East’ ‘West’ debate in those days was whether or not ‘West’ should race on a Saturday and ‘East’ on a Sunday and change the procedure every year.

 

However within the last 20 years in all types of racing whether it be National or Federation racing there has always been the constant discussion that often turns into full blown argument about whether ‘East’ or ‘West’ is best.

 

Yes the ‘West’ was the main area 20 years ago for Peregrines and other Hawks but today they are everywhere and I would imagine nowadays from the losses and badly injured birds coming home from the ‘East’ race points that the East coast of Scotland and Northern England must have as many Peregrines as the South West of Scotland and the North West of England. And even if statistically there are not as many in each side of the country there is definitely enough Peregrines hunting in both areas have to render the danger to our Racing Pigeons almost equal.

 

So if we were to assume that the dangers faced by our Pigeons are the same on both sides of the country and we are back to having a blank page regarding choice for routes then does that now enable us to have a serious debate about ‘East ‘v ‘West’ and start to understand a little bit more about what that really means.

 

The first thing I have understood is that Loft location and Wind direction accompanied by the Drag of the convoy make the result in short races. This factor decreases bit by bit as the distance starts to increase until I would think around the 250 mile – 300 mile mark (some may say a lesser distance) when the Racing Pigeons are so well strung out it is the naturally fitter and healthier pigeons that are out at the front.

 

At this stage of the race programme the main factors in play are only the location of the race point, the loft location, the weather and strength of the wind and whether it is on the traditional ‘East’ or ‘West’ race route.

 

If I can stop here and refer you to the attached map of Scotland (or have a look at Google Maps/Google Earth) where I have made a bit of a non-scientific assumption that Stirling is the centre of the middle belt in Scotland. Looking at the map I think I can clearly state that we have never really raced down the ‘West’ route we have raced down the ‘Middle “ route if we are referring to race points directly south of Scotland.

 

Modern day fanciers have not raced the actual ‘West’ route properly for over a hundred years. The main evidence for this comes from the results of the pioneer days of the Scottish National Flying Club in which the fanciers of the day flew their national races from Dublin in 1894, Thuries in 1895, Cork in 1896 and Skibereen in 1897, 1898 and 1899. I do note that the winners of these races came from the West of Scotland and their winning velocities were comparable with National racing today.

 

Therefore the current ‘West’ v ‘East’ discussion is not correct, as we have always only been discussing the ‘East’ v ‘Centre’ and recently missed out completely the opportunity to race from the ‘West’.

 

There is an additional twist to this debate and that is that the country of Scotland does not sit squarely across the Isle of Great Britain. It starts on the West at a lower latitude than it does on the East and therefore when you are racing from the south into Area/Region/Sectional boundaries that are based on Federation boundaries you are not really creating a fair sectional system.

 

In terms of choosing race points for National Racing with the fairest racing structure there are some obvious facts to be considered:

 

1. Club and Federation boundaries overlap.

 

2. The Regional and Sectional boundaries in National Racing currently being employed use Federation boundaries which do not accurately place fanciers inside geographic boundaries that would determine their true sectional location if the country was split up into grids.

 

3. To create a fairer view of National racing we should consider an Area/Region/Section structure separate from traditional Federation boundaries.

 

4. When you are racing from any direction into Scotland you cannot really create a fair sectional system with straight up and down and side to side lines, any lines and markers should actually be placed at an angle in line with the geographic structure of the country.

 

Looking at the attached map again ( or Google Maps/Earth) you can see that if we agree to use Stirling as the centre of Scotland (within the Central Belt) then you can see how the true ‘West’ v ‘Middle’ v ‘East’ debate for National racing should take place.

 

I have tried to structure this debate around current Scottish Channel racing race points for the ‘East ‘ and ‘Middle’ . For ease of argument and just in case anyone thinks what I am saying is a good idea and wants to actually propose trying this next year I have taken modern well used liberation sites in Ireland ‘West’ race points rather than the original SNFC flyers locations.

 

I think that you could take this ‘West’ ‘Middle’ ‘East†structure up and down the country and depending on your organisations decision to go ‘West’, ‘Middle’ or ‘East’ you could position your inland race points accordingly, allowing the Loft location, wind direction accompanied by the drag of the convoy to diminish as the distance steps out and all the time you would have a clear understanding thereafter of the importance race point location matched against loft location plays. You never know creating race points that ‘zig zag’ down England could be the fairest way for an Organisation to race.

 

If you consider an answer to the sometime heated debates that always take place after Young Bird Nationals, about the fairness of the race points added to the loft locations of the winners, a race from Tullamore would certainly change the complexion of any race never mind a young bird race. I would think there would have to be other preparatory races from the ‘South West’ of Scotland or even from Northern Ireland before such a National race was tried. However if it could be done in the late 1800’s then surely the modern racing pigeons should adapt quite easily. To continue on the fairness theme could it be that we offer three Young Bird nationals - West - Tullamore, Centre – Worcester and East – Leicester.

 

To finish I have created a grid with a few race points with their approximate distances showing that a change into Ireland to create a true ‘West’ routes will not lessen the distance for the shorter National races and could provide an option against the current race points with a move across into the ‘Centre’ or ‘East’ for the longer traditional channel race points.

 

I’ve also shown the approximate mileage into Fraserburgh to help understand the implications beyond the central belt for such a change.

 

West Route Middle Route East Route Approximate Distance to Stirling Approximate Distance to Fraserburgh

 

Tullamore 242 373

Mallow 335 466

Rosscarberry 377 508

Barley Cove 401 532

Worcester 279 380

Lamballa 532 638

Alancon 557 646

Nantes 623 724

Peterborough 287 361

Ypres 459 512

Arras 489 547

Lille Belgium 492 523

Cologne 572 598

Reims 579 633

 

Submitted to add to the debate on the subject of SNFC Race Points and their perceived advantages.

 

Cheers....

[Belge]

The grid did not come out as expected..

I've tried again. First Distance is Stirling. Second Distance is Fraserburgh

Cheers

 

West Route

 

Mallow 335 466

Rosscarberry 377 508

Barley Cove 401 532

 

Middle Route

 

Worcester 279 380

Lamballa 532 638

Alancon 557 646

Nantes 623 724

 

East Route

 

Peterborough 287 361

Ypres 459 512

Arras 489 547

Lille Belgium 492 523

Cologne 572 598

Reims 579 633

[hotrod]

Here's the stats 2014. Season .

 

Buckingham (Central). Fast race. Winner doing 1800 ypm. Was a great race but it should be at this speed.

 

Maidstone (east). Sw wind turn to n west, winner doing 1225 ypm , 449 birds timed down to 1052 ypm

 

Alencon (Central ) s w turn to north. Winner doing 1106. Only 100 birds and it's down at 645 ypm

 

Ancenis. Central/west winner doing 1274. Only 16 doing over 996 , and only 47 galant bird home in race time

 

Clermont .central/east. E n e wind turn to s east , winner doing 1449.ypm. Only 86 by 1005 ypm prob because of thunder on way home

 

It's not hard to see the facts.

[hotrod]

Fair play mate. I just wonder that if the south won out of turn from Belgium/Luxembourg what we as a fancy would do next?

I would say well done ,I need to try harder .

[We man]

Here's the stats 2014. Season .

 

Buckingham (Central). Fast race. Winner doing 1800 ypm. Was a great race but it should be at this speed.

 

Maidstone (east). Sw wind turn to n west, winner doing 1225 ypm , 449 birds timed down to 1052 ypm

 

Alencon (Central ) s w turn to north. Winner doing 1106. Only 100 birds and it's down at 645 ypm

 

Ancenis. Central/west winner doing 1274. Only 16 doing over 996 , and only 47 galant bird home in race time

 

Clermont .central/east. E n e wind turn to s east , winner doing 1449.ypm. Only 86 by 1005 ypm prob because of thunder on way home

 

It's not hard to see the facts.

Stewart could you put stats up for the SNRPC as well if you don't mind thanks.

[We man]

Hi I've enjoyed this Topic started by DJK who is quickly becoming one of the top Distance Fanciers of our time.

 

Here is my own non Top Distance Fanciers view on the subject.... I will try to attach a map I've created to go with the text but if I can't attach it just open up Google Maps/Google Earth and toggle back and forth when you get to the relevant parts..

 

I am not someone who has the ability to regularly condition a racing pigeon to return from, never mind win prizes at the long distance channel races of our Scottish National race calendar. I have tried many times before and have only timed pigeons in race time from the channel about four times and on the day only twice. However like nearly every Pigeon Fancier I know I am fascinated by the Scottish National races and the way in which this type of racing defines individual fanciers as long distance experts, with their names, their winning birds names and their area of residence known by nearly everyone in the sport.

 

When I first started pigeons in the early 70’s everything seemed so straight forward with the vast majority of Scottish Federations racing home north, down what was called the ‘West’ route (more on that later) and the English and Welsh racing home south and mainly on the East. The only discussion I can remember surrounding the ‘East’ ‘West’ debate in those days was whether or not ‘West’ should race on a Saturday and ‘East’ on a Sunday and change the procedure every year.

 

However within the last 20 years in all types of racing whether it be National or Federation racing there has always been the constant discussion that often turns into full blown argument about whether ‘East’ or ‘West’ is best.

 

Yes the ‘West’ was the main area 20 years ago for Peregrines and other Hawks but today they are everywhere and I would imagine nowadays from the losses and badly injured birds coming home from the ‘East’ race points that the East coast of Scotland and Northern England must have as many Peregrines as the South West of Scotland and the North West of England. And even if statistically there are not as many in each side of the country there is definitely enough Peregrines hunting in both areas have to render the danger to our Racing Pigeons almost equal.

 

So if we were to assume that the dangers faced by our Pigeons are the same on both sides of the country and we are back to having a blank page regarding choice for routes then does that now enable us to have a serious debate about ‘East ‘v ‘West’ and start to understand a little bit more about what that really means.

 

The first thing I have understood is that Loft location and Wind direction accompanied by the Drag of the convoy make the result in short races. This factor decreases bit by bit as the distance starts to increase until I would think around the 250 mile – 300 mile mark (some may say a lesser distance) when the Racing Pigeons are so well strung out it is the naturally fitter and healthier pigeons that are out at the front.

 

At this stage of the race programme the main factors in play are only the location of the race point, the loft location, the weather and strength of the wind and whether it is on the traditional ‘East’ or ‘West’ race route.

 

If I can stop here and refer you to the attached map of Scotland (or have a look at Google Maps/Google Earth) where I have made a bit of a non-scientific assumption that Stirling is the centre of the middle belt in Scotland. Looking at the map I think I can clearly state that we have never really raced down the ‘West’ route we have raced down the ‘Middle “ route if we are referring to race points directly south of Scotland.

 

Modern day fanciers have not raced the actual ‘West’ route properly for over a hundred years. The main evidence for this comes from the results of the pioneer days of the Scottish National Flying Club in which the fanciers of the day flew their national races from Dublin in 1894, Thuries in 1895, Cork in 1896 and Skibereen in 1897, 1898 and 1899. I do note that the winners of these races came from the West of Scotland and their winning velocities were comparable with National racing today.

 

Therefore the current ‘West’ v ‘East’ discussion is not correct, as we have always only been discussing the ‘East’ v ‘Centre’ and recently missed out completely the opportunity to race from the ‘West’.

 

There is an additional twist to this debate and that is that the country of Scotland does not sit squarely across the Isle of Great Britain. It starts on the West at a lower latitude than it does on the East and therefore when you are racing from the south into Area/Region/Sectional boundaries that are based on Federation boundaries you are not really creating a fair sectional system.

 

In terms of choosing race points for National Racing with the fairest racing structure there are some obvious facts to be considered:

 

1. Club and Federation boundaries overlap.

 

2. The Regional and Sectional boundaries in National Racing currently being employed use Federation boundaries which do not accurately place fanciers inside geographic boundaries that would determine their true sectional location if the country was split up into grids.

 

3. To create a fairer view of National racing we should consider an Area/Region/Section structure separate from traditional Federation boundaries.

 

4. When you are racing from any direction into Scotland you cannot really create a fair sectional system with straight up and down and side to side lines, any lines and markers should actually be placed at an angle in line with the geographic structure of the country.

 

Looking at the attached map again ( or Google Maps/Earth) you can see that if we agree to use Stirling as the centre of Scotland (within the Central Belt) then you can see how the true ‘West’ v ‘Middle’ v ‘East’ debate for National racing should take place.

 

I have tried to structure this debate around current Scottish Channel racing race points for the ‘East ‘ and ‘Middle’ . For ease of argument and just in case anyone thinks what I am saying is a good idea and wants to actually propose trying this next year I have taken modern well used liberation sites in Ireland ‘West’ race points rather than the original SNFC flyers locations.

 

I think that you could take this ‘West’ ‘Middle’ ‘East†structure up and down the country and depending on your organisations decision to go ‘West’, ‘Middle’ or ‘East’ you could position your inland race points accordingly, allowing the Loft location, wind direction accompanied by the drag of the convoy to diminish as the distance steps out and all the time you would have a clear understanding thereafter of the importance race point location matched against loft location plays. You never know creating race points that ‘zig zag’ down England could be the fairest way for an Organisation to race.

 

If you consider an answer to the sometime heated debates that always take place after Young Bird Nationals, about the fairness of the race points added to the loft locations of the winners, a race from Tullamore would certainly change the complexion of any race never mind a young bird race. I would think there would have to be other preparatory races from the ‘South West’ of Scotland or even from Northern Ireland before such a National race was tried. However if it could be done in the late 1800’s then surely the modern racing pigeons should adapt quite easily. To continue on the fairness theme could it be that we offer three Young Bird nationals - West - Tullamore, Centre – Worcester and East – Leicester.

 

To finish I have created a grid with a few race points with their approximate distances showing that a change into Ireland to create a true ‘West’ routes will not lessen the distance for the shorter National races and could provide an option against the current race points with a move across into the ‘Centre’ or ‘East’ for the longer traditional channel race points.

 

I’ve also shown the approximate mileage into Fraserburgh to help understand the implications beyond the central belt for such a change.

 

West Route Middle Route East Route Approximate Distance to Stirling Approximate Distance to Fraserburgh

 

Tullamore 242 373

Mallow 335 466

Rosscarberry 377 508

Barley Cove 401 532

Worcester 279 380

Lamballa 532 638

Alancon 557 646

Nantes 623 724

Peterborough 287 361

Ypres 459 512

Arras 489 547

Lille Belgium 492 523

Cologne 572 598

Reims 579 633

 

Submitted to add to the debate on the subject of SNFC Race Points and their perceived advantages.

 

Cheers....

Well done good to see another good angle,Big Da was right Ireland looks good,to be sure.

[Novice]

Lanarkshire offered feds the chance to go to the coast without the nats they never took the offer up so fully expect the fed to be on the snfc wagon next season

 

Inland nats are here to stay believe me, they are the biggest and most supported nat races end off

 

Ayrshire Federation flew on a "westerly route" 2014 and my information direct from a very well informed source is that negotiations never reached the stage of making a formal offer to Ayrshire or even having a meaningful discussion with officials.

 

This post was raised simply to correct any misapprehension not to stir the pot. It has no bearing on 2015 race points for the SNFC.

[dkj]

Here's the stats 2014. Season . snfc races 2014

 

Buckingham (Central). Fast race. Winner doing 1800 ypm. Was a great race but it should be at this speed.

 

Maidstone (east). Sw wind turn to n west, winner doing 1225 ypm , 449 birds timed down to 1052 ypm

 

Alencon (Central ) s w turn to north. Winner doing 1106. Only 100 birds and it's down at 645 ypm

 

Ancenis. Central/west winner doing 1274. Only 16 doing over 996 , and only 47 galant bird home in race time

 

Clermont .central/east. E n e wind turn to s east , winner doing 1449.ypm. Only 86 by 1005 ypm prob because of thunder on way home

 

It's not hard to see the facts.

 

the 1st 50 in open results buckingham section a= 14. b=12. c=9. d=9. e=5. f=1

//////////////////////// maidstone section. a=1, b=38. c=11.

//////////////////////// alencon section a=17. b=18. c=5. e=7. f=1. g=2

//////////////////////// ypres section b=31. c=15. g=4

//////////////////////// ancesis section a=18. b=7. c=5. d=. e=11

//////////////////////// clermont section a=17. b=8. c=14. d=5. e=6

 

stu that show what races suit what area and what races is the fairest for all of scotland

[hotrod]

the 1st 50 in open results buckingham section a= 14. b=12. c=9. d=9. e=5. f=1

//////////////////////// maidstone section. a=1, b=38. c=11.

//////////////////////// alencon section a=17. b=18. c=5. e=7. f=1. g=2

//////////////////////// ypres section b=31. c=15. g=4

//////////////////////// ancesis section a=18. b=7. c=5. d=. e=11

//////////////////////// clermont section a=17. b=8. c=14. d=5. e=6

 

stu that show what races suit what area and what races is the fairest for all of scotland

Sorry mate woods and trees spring to mind .ive never stated anything about fair races I've only stated about better races return wise on the whole not one or two , doesn't matter how bad a race is there's always someone with great returns ,and the same when most get great racing one or two bet it bad , alencon was a disaster this year as was the western races last year including the short inland races and the year before , I'm not looking for any advantage I just would like better racing and I'm 100% sure Maidstone /ypres/ Reims / clermont. Would be my choice for race points.the long distance race well we know we can't do it on our own so have to go piggy back with others.so anywhere the members pick is fine by me .

[dkj]

Sorry mate woods and trees spring to mind .ive never stated anything about fair races I've only stated about better races return wise on the whole not one or two , doesn't matter how bad a race is there's always someone with great returns ,and the same when most get great racing one or two bet it bad , alencon was a disaster this year as was the western races last year including the short inland races and the year before , I'm not looking for any advantage I just would like better racing and I'm 100% sure Maidstone /ypres/ Reims / clermont. Would be my choice for race points.the long distance race well we know we can't do it on our own so have to go piggy back with others.so anywhere the members pick is fine by me .

 

thats ok stu if you think that. but my returns were just the same on both sides . saying that never got a pigeon home from the gold cup. but hey ho.

will have a go next year no matter were we race from east or west.

but mind stu everybody wants to win at these races its not just about getting them home

[hotrod]

thats ok stu if you think that. but my returns were just the same on both sides . saying that never got a pigeon home from the gold cup. but hey ho.

will have a go next year no matter were we race from east or west.

but mind stu everybody wants to win at these races its not just about getting them home

No probs davie , and yes all want to win , but the returns are just as important ,remember there's only one winner and one in each section .

[peter pandy]

Allencon "Gold Cup" returns were nothing to do with race point but severe thunderstorms throughout England and did we not say here on basics before a bird was timed "who decided on a liberation" when we all knew their were warnings 24 hours before lib and it was going to be a disaster.