Transportation Of Pigeons

[Guest Owen]

Well thank goodness for that! I was never interested in disagreement or dispute in the first place. I am sure that we can find ways of talking and discussing things of interest to us all without the need to fall out. If and when I meet up with Davie or anyone involved in the recent disagreements and sniping I will be the first to extend the hand of friendship. It might interest some of you when I tell you that I served with both the Black Watch and the Argyles during my active service in the Middle East. It was only for a relatively short time but it was a marvellous experience.

I started out on this path because a few years ago we were in a Federation that used a modern looking transporter which resulted in birds being dehydrated on their return from even short races and with mud clinging to their legs and feet. The losses had got much worse than they were before we had started using it. Another guy and myself decided to examine the vehicle to try to work out what had gone wrong. Without going into too much detail here we came to the conclusion that there were faults with the design of the vehicle and probably concerns over the way it was being operated. The upshot of that was that we tried to enter into a debate at Federation level with the aim of trying to fix the problems. We completely failed to get a hearing but we kept the data we collected. At the end of that year our Club left the Federation and joined a different Federation with a different type of transporter in operation. Some months ago there was a move to buy the transporter concerned from the first Fed to use it with the Fed that our club is currently flying with. Again myself and several others wanted to discuss the matter in an attempt to either stop the purchase or have the transporter modified so that it could be suitable for use as a pigeon transporter. I now hear that the vehicle concerned has been sold and is no longer a concern.

During the process of trying to learn and understand the way heat and humidity affects the pigeons I have learned a great deal. I also want to thank IB for his contribution this morning because it contained more information that I need to get my head around.

In conclusion I think a lot of us had a wake up call in regard to the welfare of our pigeons because we must improve out understanding about what sort of facilities we must provide if they are to be given the best chance to perform in the way we want them to do. One person phoned just this morning and claimed that the figures used to calculate the pigeons per crate are from figures intended to take poultry to slaughter. Another area to be investigated.

So for the moment thanks to everybody, no hard feelings towards anybody. Just one note of interest to those who will read this, my interest is still very much alive and, for me, the enquiry goes on.

Owen

[Guest TAMMY_1]

Well thank goodness for that! I was never interested in disagreement or dispute in the first place. I am sure that we can find ways of talking and discussing things of interest to us all without the need to fall out. If and when I meet up with Davie or anyone involved in the recent disagreements and sniping I will be the first to extend the hand of friendship. It might interest some of you when I tell you that I served with both the Black Watch and the Argyles during my active service in the Middle East. It was only for a relatively short time but it was a marvellous experience.

I started out on this path because a few years ago we were in a Federation that used a modern looking transporter which resulted in birds being dehydrated on their return from even short races and with mud clinging to their legs and feet. The losses had got much worse than they were before we had started using it. Another guy and myself decided to examine the vehicle to try to work out what had gone wrong. Without going into too much detail here we came to the conclusion that there were faults with the design of the vehicle and probably concerns over the way it was being operated. The upshot of that was that we tried to enter into a debate at Federation level with the aim of trying to fix the problems. We completely failed to get a hearing but we kept the data we collected. At the end of that year our Club left the Federation and joined a different Federation with a different type of transporter in operation. Some months ago there was a move to buy the transporter concerned from the first Fed to use it with the Fed that our club is currently flying with. Again myself and several others wanted to discuss the matter in an attempt to either stop the purchase or have the transporter modified so that it could be suitable for use as a pigeon transporter. I now hear that the vehicle concerned has been sold and is no longer a concern.

During the process of trying to learn and understand the way heat and humidity affects the pigeons I have learned a great deal. I also want to thank IB for his contribution this morning because it contained more information that I need to get my head around.

In conclusion I think a lot of us had a wake up call in regard to the welfare of our pigeons because we must improve out understanding about what sort of facilities we must provide if they are to be given the best chance to perform in the way we want them to do. One person phoned just this morning and claimed that the figures used to calculate the pigeons per crate are from figures intended to take poultry to slaughter. Another area to be investigated.

So for the moment thanks to everybody, no hard feelings towards anybody. Just one note of interest to those who will read this, my interest is still very much alive and, for me, the enquiry goes on.

Owen

 

I will quite happily take a drink off you Owen at the Big Blue

[hotrod]

Owen i have suffered more than most in the pigeon game in then last 2 weeks but i think you have made an *expletive removed* of yourself to be honest .....You have to listen to everyones opinion mate the way you seem to do it is if you dont agree with me fk you ....

I've not posted on this thread but have read it from start and although I don't know Owen ,I do know big davie , and have never read anything on here from davie other than positive constructive posts on any thread , but I have noticed with yourself Owen as alf said it seems to be your way or the highway . WE. ALL HAVE OPINIONS .

[Guest Owen]

hotrod

now that I have resolved the situation with people like Davie I don't intend to start another exchange with you or anybody else. I will agree with you and Alf that when I have a focus on what I want to explore and I will not change regardless of what anybody says. I see problem solving a bit like genetics in one important way. The narrower you keep your focus the more likely it is that you will achieve your goal. When I select pigeons to progress me towards my goal of winning races I would never consider anything other than performance in the races. Not colour, shape, size eyes bums or anything at all. For me it is the same with problem solving. I have targeted transportation and I will not deviate from it until I think I have found out all I can and am able to apply it in a practical way that will make a difference. I think there are a lot of people out there that have read about things or heard about things and seem to understand about a subject. I have never thought that was enough. I need to be able to apply what ever knowledge I have because my opinion is that unless knowledge is converted to application it is of little or no value.

So thanks for your observation but I hope you will understand that I will not be taking it any further.

Owen

[hotrod]

hotrod

now that I have resolved the situation with people like Davie I don't intend to start another exchange with you or anybody else. I will agree with you and Alf that when I have a focus on what I want to explore and I will not change regardless of what anybody says. I see problem solving a bit like genetics in one important way. The narrower you keep your focus the more likely it is that you will achieve your goal. When I select pigeons to progress me towards my goal of winning races I would never consider anything other than performance in the races. Not colour, shape, size eyes bums or anything at all. For me it is the same with problem solving. I have targeted transportation and I will not deviate from it until I think I have found out all I can and am able to apply it in a practical way that will make a difference. I think there are a lot of people out there that have read about things or heard about things and seem to understand about a subject. I have never thought that was enough. I need to be able to apply what ever knowledge I have because my opinion is that unless knowledge is converted to application it is of little or no value.

So thanks for your observation but I hope you will understand that I will not be taking it any further.

Owen

Oh I don't disagree with your points about heat etc during a race , which starts when you basket your pigeons in the loft , to me it's about how many birds per basket access to water heat in transporter heat when racing home most will lead to dehydration ,thus losses IMHO . But I've been racing out of Geraldy transport for nearly ten years now and there is one thing I've noticed since the change from old type transporter , is the condition of birds when arriving home , years ago I used to see quite a few green droppings in loft after arrivals usually stopped by Sunday , most prob due to lack of water ,dehydration. And to add a point that davie mentioned is that is not aircon , it a small tube with holes in it pointing over the crates that runs full length of every row to reduce heat also ours have roof vents and the shutters are vented to minimise heat . Just an observation ,not a dig . Good luck in your quest ,all the best. Stuart

[JohnQuinn]

Owen, what exactly is your intention should you find that the way Your birds are transported is detrimental to their well being?? I ask because i am at a loss as to what can actually be done if the Money is not available to make the changes you find are required to improve Your birds situation.

[tyson]

I still say the first thing that has to be done in all federations to reduce stress and dehydration on all transporters whether geraldys or conventional is reduce the number of birds per basket I beleive this will help the situation dramaticly omo this is the biggest problem cost before consideration for the welfare of the pigeons

[Guest IB]

Firstly: I’d like to thank all participants in this thread on their more positive comments – it always makes for a better discussion.

 

Secondly: apologies to all for getting David Parsons mixed up with David Palmer; David Parsons is the vet who contributed on the forum under ‘Davidvet’, not David Palmer. I’ve corrected the error in my own post and quotes from it, but I haven’t touched any actual replies that used the wrong name given by me.

 

Thirdly: on ‘Panting’; I note views stating it occurs only in fat or unfit birds – I think that is wrong. ‘Panting’ in birds is the equivalent of us sweating. Humans sweat when we are too hot, the moisture evaporating from our skin has a cooling effect on our bodies. It is a normal function to help our bodies quickly lose excess heat. It’s like saying only fat people sweat, but we know everyone sweats, even top athletes at their peak of fitness...

 

Fourthly – Space in basket. The Dutch Transporter Study in 1995 videod birds in the crate, monitoring their behaviour over a 23 hour period. Around 80% of the time, the birds were immobile. This is an extract:-

 

Space allowance per pigeon

 

Time spent immobile is an indicator of neighbour-dependant behaviour, probably to avoid aggression. Silent, immobile birds evoked the least number of attacks. At low space allowance levels, aggression towards one bird has impact on total heat production for all birds in the same crate. Attacks are also more likely to cause serious injury. An increase in space allowance significantly reduces the risk of eye injuries. Injury not only causes the bird discomfort, it increases the risk of eye infection.

 

The birds ability to regulate its body heat was less affected by space levels than water availability. At 36C, body weight loss was low, showing continuous water availability is an effective measure for preventing dehydration even at low space levels within the crate. However, the cost of water intake measured in the number of pecks the bird receives is probably higher when space allowance is low, the pigeons’ movements towards the drinker sparking aggression in the nearest birds.

[Guest IB]

There has been a view expressed questioning the need to look at conditions aboard the transporter given the theoretical conditions the birds face after liberation. You can only solve problems that you have control over; fanciers have full control over conditions on board the transporter, and can make sure they are 100% for the birds' welfare.

 

The Dutch study showed that when conditions were not right aboard the transporter, the crated pigeons in them lost on average 9% of their body weight, with a maximum loss of 14%.

 

And this is before the race even begins. I agree with Owen, we need to get this bit right, whatever it costs.

[Guest TAMMY_1]

Owen, what exactly is your intention should you find that the way Your birds are transported is detrimental to their well being?? I ask because i am at a loss as to what can actually be done if the Money is not available to make the changes you find are required to improve Your birds situation.

 

That is a great question John,eagerly await Owens answer

[Guest TAMMY_1]

One point I would make about the transporting of our birds is that last year and previous years when we flew in Staffordshire Moorlands the baskets we used I hated from the first moment I saw them was because they were lined with newspaper but had a wire mesh grill about one and a half inches above it,the birds could never be comfortable in these and on at least one occasion Liz spotted a bird with it's ETS ring stuck in the mesh so if that had gone like that it would never had a drink and maybe never got out the basket alive and until this season it was that or nothing and this year when the chance came up to move to a new fed we jumped at it with baskets used now covered with sawdust and you could see the difference right away with birds actually getting to lay down soon after basketing,so yes if you get something better than what you have then you must take the chance when you can.

[Guest IB]

Not wanting to hogg the thread, but hunting through my stuff for info I had for the thread, I finally found something I’d tried to look out for a friend a while back. It’s from one of Gordon Chalmer’s ‘Flight Fuel series of papers: A Review of Flight, Fuel and Blood Chemistry in Racing Pigeons’ and its about how a pigeon’s legs are also involved in removing excess heat from its body, this time though it's while it’s in flight:-

 

 

“Recall from an earlier article that the amount of heat produced during flight in the pigeon has been estimated to increase about six times compared with amount of heat produced by a resting bird. The most important site for the loss of most of the heat from the body seems to be the legs - witness the dangling legs of some birds while they exercise around the loft on a hot day. Melatonin seems to exert its temperature-reducing effects by causing blood vessels near the surface of the body to dilate (expand in diameter) in order to bring more heat from the warmer core of the body to the surface.â€

[Guest bigda]

well done IB, the penny is slowly sinking in, as to what Owen has being saying on here,

he will come back and explain his findings at a cost to no one, on here. cant see what all the fuss was about it was one man trying to explain what he intends to do with "HIS" federations transporter, no one else's.

Edited November 16, 2013 by bigda

[Guest Owen]

Stuart

I have seen the system that pumps air through pipes to the pigeons. The problem in the one I saw was three fold. First the pipes did not have graduated holes down there length so the air was like a gale at one end of the pipes while being a trickle at the other end. Then the amount of air pumped was not related to the heat generated inside the crates and the drivers would not use the system during the night claiming that the noise kept them awake. I would also be concerned that the pumped air would disrupt the pigeons from drinking from the single drinker because it was pumped close to the drinking troughs.

John Quinn

"Your" birds, what's that about? As it happens I usually lose a lot less birds than anyone around here probably because I go to a lot of trouble to train my birds to drink in the crates. If I am sure that our birds are being badly treated during their transport to the races I will present the facts to the Fed Officials and the Members for them to decide what they want to do. In this area I already have a lot of support for what I am doing. As Tyson says it would be very wrong to put cost above welfare. I have had people trying to buy birds from me mostly because they need them to make a team. This sort of thing is costing people a lot of money so even if there had to be a small donation towards the cost of modifying the transporters it could very well work out cheaper in the long run. Besides that if we can reduce the losses everyone will have the benefit of better racing and be able to enjoy their birds more. I hope I have understood what you are saying because I can't believe that you would seriously suggest that if we found out that the transport facilities were doing the pigeons harm we would carry on without putting things right.

Ian

I appreciate your help and support in this. These situations must be put right if and when we know exactly what is going on in the crates. Just one point I do think that fat pigeons suffer with overheating more than slimmer pigeons and therefore pant more.

My proposal is that we should accumulate as much data as we can and then involve people qualified in these matters to advise us as to the best way to transport the pigeons. If we can do that we will solve two problems. The first being that we can be sure of getting the birds to the liberation site in the best condition and the second being that we will have provided for the pigeons welfare needs before we are approached by the Animal Welfare Organisations and we will be able to show that we have acted on the advice of professional people who are qualified in these matters.

[Guest Gareth Rankin]

Owen, can you tell me who made the transporter that you have experience of ???

 

I ask, as it seems a far way removed from the Standard Geraldy that's on the market.

 

All Geraldys have gradulated holes down the length of the vehicle which means all pigeons have equal air circulated to them.

 

The roof has 4 inches of insulation.

 

The slats on shutters are insulated and also vented.

 

I belive that once you have completed your study then you will find that the ideal vehicle you look for will be a cross of between Geraldy and the NFC wagon.

 

I have faith in the study's that both these vehicles mentioned above have carried out prior to them fabricating them. As I posted in another forum The Geraldys are used in coutries that are a hell of a lot warmer than the of the UK or northern Europe.

[Guest Owen]

Hi Gareth

I hope to be able to work out a check list of things that we should look for in a transporter regardless of it's make. If we can get all this right we will be able to give the makers a list of requirements when they produce the vehicles and perhaps just as important a check list for the convoyers and drivers.

[Guest bigda]

Hi Gareth

I hope to be able to work out a check list of things that we should look for in a transporter regardless of it's make. If we can get all this right we will be able to give the makers a list of requirements when they produce the vehicles and perhaps just as important a check list for the convoyers and drivers.

 

yes i agree owen, we have new transporters and as yet they have not been aboard for racing as yet from France or Belgium. but this year will see to that weather wise it could be cool when we go, then again it could be extremely hot, my gripe in this is more to do with sourcing clean drinking water, should we run out from a hold over.I don't like the idea of using water that we could not drink our self. they sell 5 gallon bottles of it abroad, and i would appreciate it if they use that, or load the truck with extra barrels of water from the uk

just in case, i also here there is going to be additional charge on trucks tramping through france. when it kicks in i am not so sure. there is no harm done with anyone at all, taking temperature readings, and for by. should the ventilation break down what emergency steps should be taken, and all involved being give instruction as what can be done. to save the day.

[Big Davie]

Owen, can you tell me who made the transporter that you have experience of ???

 

I ask, as it seems a far way removed from the Standard Geraldy that's on the market.

 

All Geraldys have gradulated holes down the length of the vehicle which means all pigeons have equal air circulated to them.

 

The roof has 4 inches of insulation.

 

The slats on shutters are insulated and also vented.

 

I belive that once you have completed your study then you will find that the ideal vehicle you look for will be a cross of between Geraldy and the NFC wagon.

 

I have faith in the study's that both these vehicles mentioned above have carried out prior to them fabricating them. As I posted in another forum The Geraldys are used in coutries that are a hell of a lot warmer than the of the UK or northern Europe.

Gareth good post and along the lines we discussed earlier, the difference between the Geraldys and NFC is that on one the ventilation system supplies fresh air drawn from atmosphere via a supply fan into the crates whilst the other extracts air from the crates which is then rejected to atmosphere via an extract fan ( NFC ) with the make up fresh air being passive rather than active.This will result in one unit ( Geraldy ) sitting at a slightly positive air pressure whilst the other ( NFC ) will be at a negative pressure.

 

Owen , i don't know what effect if any positive / negative pressure would have on pigeons or whether it has any significance at all but it's another little snippet of info that could be worth looking into.

 

Regards Gareth's question relating to the transporter where you experienced the problems, was this designed and built by any of the proprietary manufacturers, or was it a retrofit / adaptation carried out locally where no specialist research or design criteria had been applied, it would be interesting to know this.

 

I also note in your letter to the BHW relating to aluminium crates that you thought heat produced by the birds was reflected back into the the crates, I imagine that aluminium would have been selected because it is light , strong, and durable, however it is also an excellent conductor because it has a low electrical impedance / resistance value , it is also bright and lacks density in comparison with other materials, you may not be aware of this but on heavy load electrical connections on a commercial or industrial main switchboard for instance where large cables are coupled to copper bus bar connections then the bolts used to do this are selected because they are good conductors and are bright / shiny in appearance which gives them the ability to effectively and evenly dissipate heat whereas dark bolts or material absorbs and retains heat , if you apply this to a transporter where the construction of the crate is made of aluminium then my view is that rather than reflect heat back onto the birds it will actually effectively and evenly conduct and dissipate heat away from them, just another snippet of info worth looking into.

[Big Davie]

well done IB, the penny is slowly sinking in, as to what Owen has being saying on here,

he will come back and explain his findings at a cost to no one, on here. cant see what all the fuss was about it was one man trying to explain what he intends to do with "HIS" federations transporter, no one else's.

Bigda, I know that I said last night that I would not respond to your posts but again I cannot contain myself, the above statement is factually incorrect , read the posts on this thread, Owen,s intention is to investigate what he sees as widespread pigeon transportation issues, he only quoted one transporter as an example where he had found that returning birds had problems and that returns were poor, I am sure Owen would agree with this.

[Big Davie]

yes i agree owen, we have new transporters and as yet they have not been aboard for racing as yet from France or Belgium. but this year will see to that weather wise it could be cool when we go, then again it could be extremely hot, my gripe in this is more to do with sourcing clean drinking water, should we run out from a hold over.I don't like the idea of using water that we could not drink our self. they sell 5 gallon bottles of it abroad, and i would appreciate it if they use that, or load the truck with extra barrels of water from the uk

just in case, i also here there is going to be additional charge on trucks tramping through france. when it kicks in i am not so sure. there is no harm done with anyone at all, taking temperature readings, and for by. should the ventilation break down what emergency steps should be taken, and all involved being give instruction as what can be done. to save the day.

Danny, as well as taking extra barrels of British water with them maybe they should also take a chimp with them as part of the convoy , just in case the ventilation breaks down and emergency action needs to be taken to save the day.

 

Just a little joke

[Guest Owen]

Thanks for the information Davie and it is true that I want to throw a stone into the pool and see where the ripples will end up. Obviously I will be looking at the methods of transport here in the home area first which will be easier because I have a lot of support for my ideas and access to the vehicles will be better.

I take your points regarding the properties of aluminium and at this stage although I understand the rudiments of pigeon respiration I would not guess as to affects of negative or positive pressures on them. There will be many people out there who will produce scientific papers or quotations but at the end of the day we must actually try things out to see what happens. bigda is right on every level to bring the subject of water quality into the debate. I think we all know that there are cases where the water vessels and equipment on transporters that are never cleaned or disinfected from one year to the next. Again, this is something that has to change. Everybody is aware that pigeons carry all sorts of diseases and parasites that can be spread around. We all know people who have no idea of keeping their birds healthy and there are some that love to mess about with antibiotics. All these birds go onto transporters and mix with yours and my pigeons. I appreciate that we will never actually stop these things but I am sure that we can manage them in a better way than we do now.

One thing I do know for certain is that a great many practices and conventions regarding the management of racing pigeons are wrong. I have taken most of the accepted practices and turned them over and done the opposite to see what would happen. The result has been fantastic because I now have pigeons that take a lot of beating or losing. The result of all this has enabled me to come up with a management plan that actually works. It is not theoretical but strictly practical. I reckon that we can do something like this in regard to transport. My hope is that we can then move on to deal with other things that we know to be adversely affecting the pigeons. The one thing I hope we can do is to change the way the Unions do the job of supporting the Fanciers and to gain agreement as to which area of concern we are going to challenge next.

[Tony C]

An old post by IB I believe:

Posted 26 August 2006 - 15:01 PM A recap for the benefit of those who may have missed the original post.

 

This is an extract from the 'Dutch Pigeon Transporter Study' commissioned by the NPO [Dutch Homing Union] and carried out by a Dutch Animal University in the 1990s. The findings from this study led to the design of their new transporter vehicles.

 

The study proved that during dehydration, the birds lose water (obviously) but don't lose electrolytes. It also proved that given access to as much water as it wanted, a bird's hydration levels recovered and were normal after 30 minutes of it drinking.

 

Note that these are scientific experiments, their findings have been published as individual papers and as a book. The 'pp' references below are to the pages in the book.

 

 

Optimal Temperature Levels for Racing Pigeons Housed under Transport Conditions:

 

The Role of Water Availability and Age.

 

Abstract

 

The effect of water availability and age on the optimal temperature zone for pigeons aboard the transporter was studied. The upper critical temperature (UCT) was estimated based on body heat production, body weight & composition losses. 40 groups x 15 young birds, and 40 groups x 15/18 old birds were studied over 23 hours, exposed to ambient temps between 15C and 39C, with or without access to water. On the optimal temperature zone, age had no effect while water availability had strong impact. Birds with access to water had no UCT. Variation in weight loss occurred above 32.1C; Water deprivation caused dehydration, and deaths occurred at 39C. Body heat production increased by 0.16% per degree C above 32.1C (UCT). Above 32.1C body weight loss increased by 1.3% per degree C. The resultant dehydrated state from water deprivation and heat exposure may increase bird losses.

 

Results pp16-

 

Heat production significantly affected by ambient temperature and bird�s age. YBs 0.36% higher than OBs. Water availability had no effect.

 

Body Weight loss significantly affected by ambient temperature and water availability. No upper critical temperature was found with birds having water availability, while 32.1C estimated for birds without water. Variation higher in young birds 23.8% than old birds 21.2%.

 

Mean Body Weight (dry matter, breast muscle) significantly affected by interaction between ambient temperature and water treatment. Upper critical temperature 32.1C for water-deprived birds, higher temperatures, dry matter increased by 0.83% per degree C. i.e. most of the water lost came from the bird�s breast muscles.

 

Humidity: 70% up to 35C; 64% @ 37C; 56% @ 39C.

 

Respiration quotient 0.74, unaffected by exposures.

 

Hematocrit (Hct) values (Dehydration causes higher values) significantly affected by bird�s age: YBs 55.7%, OBs 53.6%. Water deprivation tended to increase Hct by 1.2%.

 

Hematocrit explanation

Hematocrit values decrease when the size or number of red cells decrease, and if red cells increase Hematocrit increase values. Fluid volume in the blood affects the hematocrit. Pregnant women have extra fluid, which dilutes the blood, decreasing the hematocrit. Dehydration concentrates the blood, increasing the hematocrit.

 

Chapter 1 Discussion pp20-22

 

Water availability and the �thermoneutral� zone � (optimal temperature zone)

 

Water deprivation lowers the upper critical temperature to 32.7C. (YBs died at 39C)

 

With water availability, no increase in these values was seen below the upper limit at 37C. With water availability and increasing ambient temperatures a decrease in heat production values was seen until 20C was reached, and remained constant at higher levels. 20C can be regarded as the lower critical temperature. (LCT)

 

At high ambient temperature levels birds resort to mainly water evaporation for heat loss to maintain normal body temperature. Water deprivation prevents repletion of body water reserves. This results in an increase of 1.3 % body weight loss per degree Centigrade above 32.1C and reaches 16.2% body weight loss at 39C, over a 23 hour period. The physiological consequences of this weight loss (dehydration) are: a rise in body temperature; blood high viscosity (�thickening�); �drying out� of the breast muscles through water extraction; and death when the body weight loss threshold reaches 18%. The combined effects of the temperature level and the time birds are exposed to it determines the mortality rate. Heavier birds are affected more. Smaller birds appear better able to cope with hot environments where water is scarce.

 

During flight, decreased blood viscosity promotes blood flow thus reducing the load on the heart. Therefore dehydration will adversely affect flight performance, and the bird�s capacity to get home.

 

Also during flight, body temperature increases by between 1.5C and 3C, and water loss exceeds water production. Starting the flight with depleted water reserves will cause the pigeon�s body to overheat (hyperthermia). In horses, hyperthermia decreases the time to muscle fatigue.

 

Age and optimal temperature zone p23

 

Optimal temperature zone for transporter: 20C to 32C for all ages. Some parameters were different for different age groups.

 

Body heat production was 5% higher in young birds than old. Young birds have higher energy requirements for growth processes.

 

Young birds also had a higher variation in mean body weight losses, may be down to lack of experience. Old birds easily adapt to an already familiar environment. Hct values significantly higher in young birds 2.1%, possibly linked to the higher body heat production, requiring a higher oxygen supply.

 

UCT is 32C. Variation in body weight loss increases above this. Water deprivation increases heat production, body weight loss, dry matter content of the breast muscles and mortality at temperatures above UCT. The resultant dehydrated state probably reduces the flying capacity of the pigeon and increase bird losses.

 

Chapter 3 pp43-57

 

Duirnal Variation in the Thermoregulation of Group Confined Pigeons in Relation to Ambient Temperature and Water Deprivation.

 

Abstract p43

 

The thermoregulatory response of a group of pigeons to water deprivation and their ability to recover from the resultant dehydration was examined. Groups were deprived of food, and exposed to constant temperatures of 23, 31 or 37C over 48 hours. A 24-hour dehydration period was followed by a 24-hour recovery period during which heat production and body temperature (Exp1) and evaporated water loss (EWL) (Exp2) were measured. Combined results gave an estimated dry thermal conductance during lights on and lights off periods. EWL indicated UCT between 31C and 37C. At 23C and 31C, water deprivation did not affect body temperature, EWL or heat production. At 37C water deprivation increased body temperature and reduced EWL from 8 hours after exposure began, onwards, whereas heat production was not affected. Within 30 minutes of re-hydration the effects of previous dehydration disappeared. Dry thermal conductance increased with ambient temperature. At 37C conductance of dehydrated birds was lowered.

 

Introduction p43

 

From a welfare viewpoint, not only the momentary effect of adverse conditions on the pigeon�s thermoregulation is of interest, but also its ability to recover. Dehydrated pigeons almost fully replenish body water reserves within 30 minutes when given access to water. [/b]

 

Discussion p54

 

Effects of water deprivation

 

During dehydration period, the effects of water deprivation on body temperature and EWL depended on ambient temperature and exposure time. Total heat production depended only on ambient temperature. At 23C and 31C, water deprivation did not affect thermoregulatory parameters. At 37C, body temperature increased, and EWL decreased, possibly due to osmotic trigger to save body water levels. Dehydration results in increased serum electrolyte and protein concentrations, and osmotic stress reduces respiration frequencies which causes a skip to behavioural thermoregulation to maintain normal body temperature.

 

Increase in Body heat and decrease in EWL developed from 6/8 hours after start of water deprivation, at 37C, birds had evaporated 3.9% of their body weight as water, total body water content assumed @ 65%. heat exposed pigeons become dehydrated during lights off even when water is available.

 

Recovery from dehydration p55

 

Within 30 minutes of taking water ( drank 7% of body weight = mean weight loss ) body temperature and body weight returned to normal. EWL recovery was slower.

[Guest Owen]

Tony

I am not sure if I should thank you or throw rocks at you for posting that stuff. I understood some of it but there was a lot that was Double Dutch. I think I would need a translator to take me through it if I want to understand it in depth.

As far as I can see the safe upper limit for practical purposes is 25c. In experimental situations the experimenters will want to take every situation to it's limits and wouldn't be concerned with safety margins. To us mere mortals that would be far too risky so we need built in safety margins so that we can operate in a practical way.

We know that dehydration causes the birds to suffer from reduced consciousness but I don't see anything in this report that deals with that. Reduced consciousness is a serious issue for us because it is this reduced consciousness that causes pigeons to become disorientated and vulnerable to being lost. It also makes the birds vulnerable to falcons because they are less able to evade them in that condition.

Thanks for your help, I think we are now cooking on gas because there are a lot of people interested in getting to the bottom of this problem.

[dal2]

Tony

I am not sure if I should thank you or throw rocks at you for posting that stuff. I understood some of it but there was a lot that was Double Dutch. I think I would need a translator to take me through it if I want to understand it in depth.

As far as I can see the safe upper limit for practical purposes is 25c. In experimental situations the experimenters will want to take every situation to it's limits and wouldn't be concerned with safety margins. To us mere mortals that would be far too risky so we need built in safety margins so that we can operate in a practical way.

We know that dehydration causes the birds to suffer from reduced consciousness but I don't see anything in this report that deals with that. Reduced consciousness is a serious issue for us because it is this reduced consciousness that causes pigeons to become disorientated and vulnerable to being lost. It also makes the birds vulnerable to falcons because they are less able to evade them in that condition.

Thanks for your help, I think we are now cooking on gas because there are a lot of people interested in getting to the bottom of this problem.

Where is the 25degree mentioned Owen?

[walterboswell59]

was just about to ask the same thing dal what ive just read there says birds that had access to water showed no symtoms till over 32c dont know where the 25 c is the safe level comes from everyone knows water is the most important aspect in transporting pigeons and allways has been whats new we just need to make sure the convoyers are doing there jobs now thats something i would be all for getting guys living near race sites to drop by and check that all baskets have access to water and report back to our feds and nationals then we would know the truth that our birds are being looked after properly keeping the temp down is good but if the guys looking after them dont do there jobs it means nowt imo