Transportation Of Pigeons

[Big Davie]

Thanks for the information Davie and it is true that I want to throw a stone into the pool and see where the ripples will end up. Obviously I will be looking at the methods of transport here in the home area first which will be easier because I have a lot of support for my ideas and access to the vehicles will be better.

I take your points regarding the properties of aluminium and at this stage although I understand the rudiments of pigeon respiration I would not guess as to affects of negative or positive pressures on them. There will be many people out there who will produce scientific papers or quotations but at the end of the day we must actually try things out to see what happens. bigda is right on every level to bring the subject of water quality into the debate. I think we all know that there are cases where the water vessels and equipment on transporters that are never cleaned or disinfected from one year to the next. Again, this is something that has to change. Everybody is aware that pigeons carry all sorts of diseases and parasites that can be spread around. We all know people who have no idea of keeping their birds healthy and there are some that love to mess about with antibiotics. All these birds go onto transporters and mix with yours and my pigeons. I appreciate that we will never actually stop these things but I am sure that we can manage them in a better way than we do now.

One thing I do know for certain is that a great many practices and conventions regarding the management of racing pigeons are wrong. I have taken most of the accepted practices and turned them over and done the opposite to see what would happen. The result has been fantastic because I now have pigeons that take a lot of beating or losing. The result of all this has enabled me to come up with a management plan that actually works. It is not theoretical but strictly practical. I reckon that we can do something like this in regard to transport. My hope is that we can then move on to deal with other things that we know to be adversely affecting the pigeons. The one thing I hope we can do is to change the way the Unions do the job of supporting the Fanciers and to gain agreement as to which area of concern we are going to challenge next.

Owen , I agree with your concerns regards lack of disinfection of water tanks and delivery systems and on an earlier post you also mentioned damp bags of feeding, mouldy feeding , and dirt and rubbish etc inside a transporter, there is no doubt if that was happening then it would be unacceptable but for me this is a local issue and would need to be addressed by the members and officials of the organisation concerned but it has nothing to do with the design of the transporter.

 

Getting back to the modern transporter on which you based your letter to the BHW,again it would be of interest know if it was purpose built by one of the leading manufacturers ( you don't have to name them )where research and design criteria should have been applied or was it a retrofit / adaptation of perhaps an existing unit where the unit had been adapted based on what pigeon fanciers thought rather than on any detailed research, I think it is important to know this so that we know what we are dealing with.

[Guest bigda]

Danny, as well as taking extra barrels of British water with them maybe they should also take a chimp with them as part of the convoy , just in case the ventilation breaks down and emergency action needs to be taken to save the day.

 

Just a little joke

 

again davie, you add nothing to the topic, in the event of the system breaking down

it would be a wise monkey, that had in store a strategic plan also water on board that was fit for human consumption, you are not a vet. or have any creed about what a bird can suffer drinking contaminated water, we suffered plenty losses from our old transporter, and by going with other moochers, and its use of limited resources of water, again the water they used abroad

could have added to the losses, ventilation is great while it is working. but can also be a oven when not. the issue here is to see why we have so many losses

i say if you give contaminated water, I expect a contaminated result, this year will be our first using our new style trucks and baskets the type of basket we have is a vast improvement on the older type i have seen, and i hope we can have a good season when we go abroad. you only need to show a chimp once how to do something, and it gets the just of the thread, others well can just act like a monkey

Edited November 18, 2013 by bigda

[novo10]

Aluminium crates are great john except when they come back wi black head s ha ha effects my show doo s

davy that's what you race show racers lol

[Big Davie]

Danny, as well as taking extra barrels of British water with them maybe they should also take a chimp with them as part of the convoy , just in case the ventilation breaks down and emergency action needs to be taken to save the day.

 

Just a little joke

 

 

again davie, you add nothing to the topic, in the event of the system breaking down

it would be a wise monkey, that had in store a strategic plan also water on board that was fit for human consumption, you are not a vet. or have any creed about what a bird can suffer drinking contaminated water, we suffered plenty losses from our old transporter, and by going with other moochers, and its use of limited resources of water, again the water they used abroad

could have added to the losses, ventilation is great while it is working. but can also be a oven when not. the issue here is to see why we have so many losses

i say if you give contaminated water, I expect a contaminated result, this year will be our first using our new style trucks and baskets the type of basket we have is a vast improvement on the older type i have seen, and i hope we can have a good season when we go abroad. you only need to show a chimp once how to do something, and it gets the just of the thread, others well can just act like a monkey

Aw ,..... Danny, you cut me to the bone, I wasn't having a go about the water , I was only having a wee joke about the chimp and my other posts have been constructive.

[Guest TAMMY_1]

again davie, you add nothing to the topic, in the event of the system breaking down

it would be a wise monkey, that had in store a strategic plan also water on board that was fit for human consumption, you are not a vet. or have any creed about what a bird can suffer drinking contaminated water, we suffered plenty losses from our old transporter, and by going with other moochers, and its use of limited resources of water, again the water they used abroad

could have added to the losses, ventilation is great while it is working. but can also be a oven when not. the issue here is to see why we have so many losses

i say if you give contaminated water, I expect a contaminated result, ] this year will be our first using our new style trucks and baskets the type of basket we have is a vast improvement on the older type i have seen, and i hope we can have a good season when we go abroad. you only need to show a chimp once how to do something, and it gets the just of the thread, others well can just act like a monkey

 

if that was the case Einstein what happened at the SNFC race where birds were given so called contaminated water,did the leading birds not drink from the so called contaminated canisters,that never produced a contaminated result

[Guest bigda]

if that was the case Einstein what happened at the SNFC race where birds were given so called contaminated water,did the leading birds not drink from the so called contaminated canisters,that never produced a contaminated result

 

not going into detail about that, but from what i am led to believe the winner never drank from contaminated water

and what i am referring too is the use of french tap water, you would not drink it, so why give it to your birds that you have nursed all year to try and win the gold cup or such race you will also be familiar with chicken farmers when they have a outbreak of bird flu, and what bio security they use, as illnesses are airborne are bad enough why

make it easier for extra ones to attack our birds the race is hard enough for the birds fighting fit, have a look at the cobys that sit on the roof hunched up most days that also drink out the gutter do they look like they will fly to the next village.

Edited November 18, 2013 by bigda

[Wiley]

not going into detail about that, but from what i am led to believe the winner never drank from contaminated water

and what i am referring too is the use of french tap water, you would not drink it, so why give it to your birds that you have nursed all year to try and win the gold cup or such race you will also be familiar with chicken farmers when they have a outbreak of bird flu, and what bio security they use, as illnesses are airborne are bad enough why

make it easier for extra ones to attack our birds the race is hard enough for the birds fighting fit, have a look at the cobys that sit on the roof hunched up most days that also drink out the gutter do they look like they will fly to the next village.

 

How do you know if the winner drunk or not on the transporter?

[peter pandy]

How do you know if the winner drunk or not on the transporter?

Well they were not on the transporter at the time it was noticed. It was during basketing.

[walterboswell59]

ok then throw a milton tablet in the tank next problem

[peter pandy]

ok then throw a milton tablet in the tank next problem

Milton and stainless steel do not mix and produce a chemical reaction. definitely a no go Walter.

[Guest bigda]

ok then throw a milton tablet in the tank next problem

 

yes milton would help to sterialize the utensils and troughs, no need for the birds to drink it just give them good drinking water, either buy some when in france, or take extra on board. then we can move on to the next stage that being setting up test pilots on the first of april each year in all federations.

Edited November 18, 2013 by bigda

[Guest Gareth Rankin]

This thread is all very amateurish especially by one individual, imo the sooner this thread is locked them it will be for the better.

 

Owen go and collect your own facts and figures then once it's complete then please do publish it, as I have said before the end result will be all that has been published before by organisations/ fabricators that have done study's on a professional level.

[walterboswell59]

Milton and stainless steel do not mix and produce a chemical reaction. definitely a no go Walter.

thought the tanks were plastic peter a pinch of potassium permangante then or a spoonfull of thin bleech and there must be other water sterilisers on the market m8 im sure they could find something if there that concerned about the water a swallow flys 3000 mile with a drink from a puddle all wild birds drink dirty water and it does them no harm think we are looking for problems that are not there or excuses maybe ino its lack of water and bops we should be looking at peter

[Guest Owen]

Gareth

I am quite willing to leave things here. I can understand your frustration because the whole thing is getting long winded and I imagine there will be people who have lost patients with it. In regard to the idea of locking a thread like this, I think that would be wrong as long as people want to talk about it. Surely if someone has no interest in the subject they don't have to read the posts. However, even now there is new information coming to light. I knew that if water stood on joints between dissimilar metals there could be a chemical reaction much the same as in batteries but I had not thought that there could be a similar problem involving chemicals in cleaning solutions when they are in contact with certain metals. This could be important because the last thing we want is to cause the pigeons to be poisoned. I think that the important thing is that this piece of information should be investigated. I have mentioned before that the Unions are letting us down because they should be able to advise us or coachbuilders as to what is required in a transporter. It seems that they have become a glorified stray centre that keeps records of membership and that is about it. I think that if anybody requires information on the technical side of our sport we should be able to get it from them.

[peter pandy]

thought the tanks were plastic peter a pinch of potassium permangante then or a spoonfull of thin bleech and there must be other water sterilisers on the market m8 im sure they could find something if there that concerned about the water a swallow flys 3000 mile with a drink from a puddle all wild birds drink dirty water and it does them no harm think we are looking for problems that are not there or excuses maybe ino its lack of water and bops we should be looking at peter

Walter its a few years since I was looking at transporters however the tanks and water troughs running the full length of the units were constructed of stainless steel and it was Dr Lynch who informed us that Milton should never be used after sterilization experiments with baby equipment were produced with their findings. I have noticed in many transporter photos that this was the drinking system of the past. Personally, I like you would only use Potassium Permanganate.

[walterboswell59]

only thing is they would greet it was staining the drinkers peter lol but there must be other stuff to do the same job on the market m8 but seems someone will fined fault with anything thats suggested let them get on with it pal

[Tony C]

Walter its a few years since I was looking at transporters however the tanks and water troughs running the full length of the units were constructed of stainless steel and it was Dr Lynch who informed us that Milton should never be used after sterilization experiments with baby equipment were produced with their findings. I have noticed in many transporter photos that this was the drinking system of the past. Personally, I like you would only use Potassium Permanganate.

 

Perhaps an alterative http://www.interpigeon.com/products/167588_plg_water_treatment_250ml.php

[Big Davie]

Water

 

I have been having a think about the discussions on water and would like to add some points for consideration, my own view is that whilst their is no doubt that some of the chemicals that are being quoted on this thread I.E. potassium permanganate, Milton, thin bleach , PLG, ( organic acid ) etc,etc could all have their uses as an aid in maintaining health and cleanliness at the loft and could / should be used as the individual sees fit to use them, I would also be happy for any of the above listed substances to be used to disinfect / sterilise the water tanks , drinkers, and water delivery system which should then be flushed with clean water when disinfection is complete, however IMO this should only be done whilst the transporter is parked up at the home base which if done on a regular basis should ensure that the watering system remains free of any lingering mould , viral or bacterial contamination.

 

I understand that the concern of some fanciers would be in relation to disease transmission via the drinkers whilst the birds were being transported to a race, however against this my own view is that should any of the above stated substances be included in the drinking water then this could be counter productive in respect of actually getting birds to take drink who were not accustomed to the taste of any of these substances and could result in reduced water intake or no water intake at all which could result in dehydration , followed by gappy races and poor returns, as such IMO the only thing that should be presented to the birds to drink while they are in transit is clean water, and plenty of it, should the individual fancier feel it's required then any water borne cross infection concerns can be taken care of in the loft when the birds return from the race , that's when to use these aids, again this is only my own personal opinion.

 

Davie

[William Reid]

Water

 

I have been having a think about the discussions on water and would like to add some points for consideration, my own view is that whilst their is no doubt that some of the chemicals that are being quoted on this thread I.E. potassium permanganate, Milton, thin bleach , PLG, ( organic acid ) etc,etc could all have their uses as an aid in maintaining health and cleanliness at the loft and could / should be used as the individual sees fit to use them, I would also be happy for any of the above listed substances to be used to disinfect / sterilise the water tanks , drinkers, and water delivery system which should then be flushed with clean water when disinfection is complete, however IMO this should only be done whilst the transporter is parked up at the home base which if done on a regular basis should ensure that the watering system remains free of any lingering mould , viral or bacterial contamination.

 

I understand that the concern of some fanciers would be in relation to disease transmission via the drinkers whilst the birds were being transported to a race, however against this my own view is that should any of the above stated substances be included in the drinking water then this could be counter productive in respect of actually getting birds to take drink who were not accustomed to the taste of any of these substances and could result in reduced water intake or no water intake at all which could result in dehydration , followed by gappy races and poor returns, as such IMO the only thing that should be presented to the birds to drink while they are in transit is clean water, and plenty of it, should the individual fancier feel it's required then any water borne cross infection concerns can be taken care of in the loft when the birds return from the race , that's when to use these aids, again this is only my own personal opinion.

 

Davie

Spot on Davie .great post . :emoticon-0137-clapping:

[Delboy]

Water

 

I have been having a think about the discussions on water and would like to add some points for consideration, my own view is that whilst their is no doubt that some of the chemicals that are being quoted on this thread I.E. potassium permanganate, Milton, thin bleach , PLG, ( organic acid ) etc,etc could all have their uses as an aid in maintaining health and cleanliness at the loft and could / should be used as the individual sees fit to use them, I would also be happy for any of the above listed substances to be used to disinfect / sterilise the water tanks , drinkers, and water delivery system which should then be flushed with clean water when disinfection is complete, however IMO this should only be done whilst the transporter is parked up at the home base which if done on a regular basis should ensure that the watering system remains free of any lingering mould , viral or bacterial contamination.

 

I understand that the concern of some fanciers would be in relation to disease transmission via the drinkers whilst the birds were being transported to a race, however against this my own view is that should any of the above stated substances be included in the drinking water then this could be counter productive in respect of actually getting birds to take drink who were not accustomed to the taste of any of these substances and could result in reduced water intake or no water intake at all which could result in dehydration , followed by gappy races and poor returns, as such IMO the only thing that should be presented to the birds to drink while they are in transit is clean water, and plenty of it, should the individual fancier feel it's required then any water borne cross infection concerns can be taken care of in the loft when the birds return from the race , that's when to use these aids, again this is only my own personal opinion.

 

Davie

I agree with this post.The only thing that should be put in the water whilst pigeons are in transport is electrolytes in very hot days and even then Im not sure if its better than good clean water.You cannot add any disenfectant to the water because this can upset the gut flora of the pigeons and if their stomach isnt right, you will not get them performing or homing well.

[JohnQuinn]

Stuart

I have seen the system that pumps air through pipes to the pigeons. The problem in the one I saw was three fold. First the pipes did not have graduated holes down there length so the air was like a gale at one end of the pipes while being a trickle at the other end. Then the amount of air pumped was not related to the heat generated inside the crates and the drivers would not use the system during the night claiming that the noise kept them awake. I would also be concerned that the pumped air would disrupt the pigeons from drinking from the single drinker because it was pumped close to the drinking troughs.

John Quinn

"Your" birds, what's that about? As it happens I usually lose a lot less birds than anyone around here probably because I go to a lot of trouble to train my birds to drink in the crates. If I am sure that our birds are being badly treated during their transport to the races I will present the facts to the Fed Officials and the Members for them to decide what they want to do. In this area I already have a lot of support for what I am doing. As Tyson says it would be very wrong to put cost above welfare. I have had people trying to buy birds from me mostly because they need them to make a team. This sort of thing is costing people a lot of money so even if there had to be a small donation towards the cost of modifying the transporters it could very well work out cheaper in the long run. Besides that if we can reduce the losses everyone will have the benefit of better racing and be able to enjoy their birds more. I hope I have understood what you are saying because I can't believe that you would seriously suggest that if we found out that the transport facilities were doing the pigeons harm we would carry on without putting things right.

Ian

I appreciate your help and support in this. These situations must be put right if and when we know exactly what is going on in the crates. Just one point I do think that fat pigeons suffer with overheating more than slimmer pigeons and therefore pant more.

My proposal is that we should accumulate as much data as we can and then involve people qualified in these matters to advise us as to

the best way to transport the pigeons. If we can do that we will solve two problems. The first being that we can be sure of getting the birds to the liberation site in the best condition and the second being that we will have provided for the pigeons welfare needs before we are approached by the Animal Welfare Organisations and we will be able to show that we have acted on the advice of professional people who are qualified in these matters.

 

 

I was not inferring to Your personal birds Owen, i was asking about Your Federation's or National organisation's birds. The reason for the question was quite simple. WE that is Lanarkshire Federation are absolutely delighted with the HUGE investment we have made in upgrading from the wicker baskets that require feeding to be scattered into the baskets to feed the birds whilst away for 2/3 day races. The problems in relation to that are imo not in the least bit concerning to us now and neither is the availability of water to the birds whilst in transit or situ at the race points. Our returns, especially in the Yb program where i would expect difficulties to show up quickest were quite simply tremendous this season, our first with the new Geraldy transporters, i myself started wit 32 and ended up with 25, very acceptable to me when comparing with previous seasons on the old transporters. I know a fancier who started with 92 Yb's this season and finished with 79. So my suggestion is that WE have things as good as they can get but you are clearly looking for improevments in Your area, which i applaud you for.

None the less, this forum will not give you any more Facts than you started with and in that respect i agree with Gareth Rankin, this thread has run its course and should be put to bed until you have some more difinitive information to share with us. Sincerely i wish you ATVB in your venture and look forward to reading your final analysis when you reach it. Cheers John.

[Guest chad3646]

dont use think things can be to clean

[Big Davie]

French Water

 

See link which I hope is attached, so much for French water being contaminated and unsafe for racing pigeons to drink, more inaccurate and unsubstantiated information.

 

Davie

[Big Davie]

French Water

My link

See link which I hope is attached, so much for French water being contaminated and unsafe for racing pigeons to drink, more inaccurate and unsubstantiated information.

 

Davie

[Big Davie]

dont use think things can be to clean

Hey Chad good to see you back, been reading some of your posts on another thread and see that a month in the cooler hasn't changed you much. Couldn't agree with you more on the above I'm sure pigeons need to be exposed to low levels of organisms in order to build their immune system and natural immunity, I think it's a case of finding a balance between to clean ( sterile ) and too dirty ( filthy ) but don't think it's anything to do with French water.