johno

i feel it could have been put much better. "pigeons at proper prices" "real bargains" not bargains at someones expense. thats all. I am sure that when the poster is doing other auctions £10-£15 wold not be considered "proper prices". I do not understand the idea of creating a situation where buyers are encouraged to bid low because of the circumstances.

sounds great. bargain prices and something for next to nothing. a lifetimes work and a probable limited future due to this horrifc illness. good to see we are trying to help. "real bargain prices" disgusting.

the result of outstanding effort by gordon geddes.

i will be sending east as i have done right from the word go.

thank you very much rose that clears matters up.

is there not more than one organisation involved? not only a governement body. enough room there to make the job of identifying the culprit impossible. the resources needed to sue will even outweigh the pockets of the NFU i suggest.

jimmy you are making a sweeping cmment as to the population of peregines in the east. you have provided no back up records or hard statistics. you assume you know the situation in the west with no reference studies or to any back up. your post is not backed up the way the position against the west route is. everything you say is hearsay and ill informed opinion. gareth you make a huge issue of the numbers of raptors increasing in the east and then go on to highlight the fact that the west route has been saturated since 2004. where are the statistics of the raptor numbers in the east. everything you say about the east route is hearsay and guesswork. the west route on the other hand has been studied by experts of world reknown. to the outsider this is a no brainer. even more so when the ruling and representative body, the SHU backed by the membership spent over £50K recently on a survey showing the west was in effect suicide. how can we ask outsider to support us in trying guard our birds when we as fanciers will not listen to the opinion of experts who formed the opinion using our money as research funding?

get real bruno. we are a sideshow with no economic power and very little resources at our disposal. if the nfu take on defra they will have a hard job proving anything as the source of the problem is only the opinion of a so called expert. an other so called expert with a differing and oposite opinion blows everything wide open. on the issue of putting our case to the powers that be has this not been done with no effect. we funded heavily a piece of research and flew in the face of the findings going down the west route. another scottish fed has decided to go back to the old route next year 2008. our ruling body in scotland stands back and says nothing. this same ruling body the shu, poured enourmous resources into this and now look like complete fools as these feds ignore the findings. as i said get real.

thanks Ian but i there an official response from the people who accepted the money originally? is the a past post refering to this?

frank how dare you ask a relevant question. this fund was going to be the saviour of the pigeon game. fundraising started. nothing else has been heard. how much was gathered? where is it and what is going to happen to it? who is in control of the moneyif there is any? what are the criteria for using the money? this forum was actively used to raise funds. many of the posters hailed the set up of the fund. information on the current position should be relatively easy to find as many supporters are posting daily. funny that roland`s original post did not bring a barrage of response. what is going on?

i am not questioning the distance the bird flew. i am questioning the logic that seems to think that while poor lost birds can fly 700 miles in a day decent proven distance birds will not be able to negotiate their way home from frankfurt or somewhere similar. i am questioning the proposition birds do not like flying over water. water does not seem to have annoyed this pigeon. i am questioning fantasy and legend

what route the pigeons would take no one knows. no factual evidence available. evidence on the thery pigeons do not like water not available proof of writings of wing commander so and so , not available. same poster would have us believe pigeon flew 700 mles over water to norway but that flying from frankfurt too big a task. does not stack. fact pigeons from barcelona are timing at 2, 3, 4 in the morning. i do not think they are taking public transport when it gets dark. the only way we will know is if we try. and try repeatedly.

bruno what is your insecurity? why do you obsess with having a say and making people cringe at your habitual compulsion to show how well versed you are? why do i make you feel so inadequate? why do you feel the need to attempt to ridicule anything i post? you appear to have a serious problem with accepting peoples right to posting facts.

bruno all i am pointing out is the only scietific data available was paid for by the pigeon fancier. you appear to be determined to have a bang at anything i post. at no point have i ever stated that west is best and fairest. the birds that went to gretna did so after mr lynch phoned myself to ask my opinion on the suggestion. i suggested they were mad to try this but went on to say that i had my opinion but it was up to the transport provider and the fanciers involved. would you please direct me to where i posted this earlier please? i was banned for 10 years by the shu for holding and standing against the westerly route.

residency and density are two entirely different things. as to using rspb info there has been a great move on this site to queston the rspb opinions when it suits. the only factual studies in the uk were undertaken in wales then in scotland. i have all the information. i was part of the radio trials. i attended andrew dixons seminar at blackpool. i was one of less than twenty fanciers in attendance even though it was held in the winter gardens during the blackpool show.

bruno these falcons are resident in many starnge places. the map shows where they , the rspb, think the perigrines are. as it plainly says at the side of the map that the map is only a guidline and not based on fact or in depth research. somehow you seem to have missed this. the point i am trying to put accross is that jimmy whites post would have us believe that the density and distribution of perigrines is equal and choice of route makes no difference. given the scientific evidence this is clearly not the case. how you can unililaterally declare right and wrong amazes me. jimmy also clearly agrees with the post that states that the old route is the best route. you say he is right. you then imply that we should be paying heid to the evidence and conclusions arrived at by research funded by scottish fanciers. does not add up. this evidence encourages pigeon fanciers to move away from theold routes into scotland.

fair play i worked out the figures a few years ago from national results. the east and south always have been to the fore. there has always been a heavy bias towards the east. this was even true in the early days of nationals in scotland when the bulk of birds entered from the west. i think the west has managed to win around 34 nationals up to date. a good number of these were won pre 1950. anyone who studies the results will notice quickly that the west faces an almost impossible task. the past 6 or 7 seven years have show a significant improvement in overall perfomance from the west. the bias though is still noticeably in favour of the east. if we go back to rennes sartilly etc the west sectin could be won timing 4 or five hours after the east and the south, this is no longer happening. even ybs are getting nearer while still not fully competing.

jimmy nash of croy

fair play rennes dol nantes and most of the replacements lay slighty to the west of due south to cocksburn path haddington etc. a sw wind which is the prevailing wind in these parts would be a distinct advantage to the flyers in the east. also measurement from the westerly liberation sites meant ther was an added advantage to lying east. anyone with a basic grip on geography and measurement will come to the conclusion that flying south north to scotland is heavily biased against westery locations. the recent move to more easterly liberation sites had lead to consistent representations of all regions and sections in the first 20 open in old bird national racing. is this not proof enough?

thw radio trials were from gretna. ask mr lynch.

post 11 jimmy it was not the rspb who advised staying away from the old route it was the experts paid by the shu. Dr Andrew Dixon was the authoritative expert employed by the shu. the shu then funded research where radios were attached to the back of birds and tracked them after liberation. 90 birds were used in trials. 5 from kelso and 1 from gretna. flyers with pigeons involved were robert lafferty raploch geddes and hillis chryston an p.lynch larbert. these lofts each used 30 of their own birds. half the birds had radios attached half did not. the kelso trials had good returns every week. in excess of 90 per cent. the gretna trial was a disaster. one pigeon on the day and less than 40 per cent all in. there is nothing to support the contet of your post jimmy. the reality is often hard to accept. jimmy where are the facts that support your post? where are the records and logs that you used to put your post togther.

post 10 square peg is rubbish. the fairest route is the route where all of the pigeons face the same conditions for the highest per centage of time taken to fly the distance. a prevailing sw wind automatically means that birds lying furthest east or nearest west of the liberation site have a pronounced advantage. when you add to this locating a liberation site in a straight line north south from the flyers flying furthest east it is clear the flyers in the west have no chance most days.

i hear that lanarkshire are going back the old route. anybody confirm or otherwise.

bruno you refer to accusations and accused. I was of the impression you were not at the meeing. have you seen the minutes or is your hearsay and rumour of better quality than the rest of ours? accusations and accused are strong words usually used in a court or in a dispute.

tammy last week i was not having a go. i was trying to highlight the difficulty cotrollers and convoyers have week to week. doos r us last week attempted to point the finger. he used too early, wrong wind, wrong place. this week he has said nothing of the 7am lib. everyone is entitled to air their opinions. once they are put up they are there to be proved or disproved.this is normal. one sided back slapping does no one no favours. if this is the norm then we have no constructive debate and learn nothing.