Knowledge Required

[peter pandy]

I require the more knowledgeable fancier to ascertain and identify a problem that has occurred in my loft.

 

I have, with perhaps a little to much enthusiasm followed much on Basics regarding vaccination affecting and producing a virus to the detriment of other loft mates and young bird sickness which in all my years in the sport have never encountered plus prolonged hold/over's encountered this year due to adverse weather conditions which has resulted in losses in my old bird team perhaps due to not drinking in the race pannier.

 

It has been in my programme in the past to vaccinate on removing from the nest with never a problem, However this year I left my young birds until they were ranging for up to 2 hours and my old bird racing had ceased, whereupon I filled a wicker 30 bird race pannier with Pine medicated straw [ obtainable from any good country store ] and vaccinated 15 youngsters into the basket with drinkers cleaned and filled twice daily after feeding. All appeared to be proceeding well and I decided to give them a week to accustom them to life on hold over's.

 

At the end of 7 days incarceration they were taken out and given 1/4 tablet Metrodinazol and handled extremely well to such an extent I was as pleased as Punch after battering Judy.

 

The next morning the feeling of Punch was replaced by the Policeman arresting him as my beautiful team of youngsters were replaced by a quivering wreck of my team on the floor of the loft unable to fly.

 

This is a new experience for me and I am seeking advice, preferably any fancier who have experienced the same or similar. The brigade for treating with antibiotics need not reply as I don't agree with filling them full of junk.

 

I thank you all in anticipation..

[Guest bigda]

sorry you feel that way about antibiotics peter, as you have just used one with out giving them vitamins. wouldn't want to be sick in your household, and it left to you to give me the medication, to make me better. you would be better giving them a charcoal tab to start with. birds that can fly mean they have taken the disease or para on them self in a milder form normally you get twisted necks and birds not picking up seeds the main thing would be baytril for them.

[PIGEON_MAN]

Have heard of old birds that were held over in the basket for a week or more that developed wing cramp and could not fly out of the baskets,could it be a simple thing like that if they were in the basket for a week.

[peter pandy]

sorry you feel that way about antibiotics peter, as you have just used one with out giving them vitamins. wouldn't want to be sick in your household, and it left to you to give me the medication, to make me better. you would be better giving them a charcoal tab to start with. birds that can fly mean they have taken the disease or para on them self in a milder form normally you get twisted necks and birds not picking up seeds the main thing would be baytril for them.

 

 

Metrodizonal is "FLAGYL 400" designed for pigeons

[peter pandy]

Have heard of old birds that were held over in the basket for a week or more that developed wing cramp and could not fly out of the baskets,could it be a simple thing like that if they were in the basket for a week.

 

 

Every possibility that could be the answer.

[flying fifer]

Are the birds actually sick or just unable to fly? I had occasion to lock up my widow-hood cocks for 7 days in hen boxes, on their return to the loft they were physically unable to fly for 3 days. Don't know whether it was wing cramps or what but definitely had an adverse affect on them. If you think about what you done, going from flying for 2 hrs per day to total inactivity it must have an effect on them. Are droppings ok?, if so then give them a few days in their end and all should be fine.

[Delboy]

Metrodizonal is "FLAGYL 400" designed for pigeons

 

Metrodizanol is a broad spectrum antibiotic ( not only a canker treatment )given along with a vaccination may stop birds flying and knock them back for around 24 hours

[yeboah]

Peter

I have always been of the believe that when injecting birds with anything we run the risk of creating A problem .

If a problem has occurred please do the following without fear of failure .

Add 1/2 a teaspoon of Virkon S to a gallon of drinking water for 48 hrs

Put 1Gallon of water in a clean bucket then add 1/2 teaspoon of Virkon S and most importantly stir very well add to the drinker it will stop the spread of disease and on most occasions cure then give vitamins for 2-3 days

I have had yb's sit on the loft roof in the past not quite sure what to do when all avenues have been tried this solution has came up trumps and a team that did not won't to fly did so with no persuasion .(ps think this weather has a lot to answer for )

Wish you well

Atb Mick

[walterboswell59]

peter your yb have thrush because you gave them an antibiotic while there imune systom was fighting the vacination send me a sae and il send you the cure walter boswell 36 whistleberry cres hamilton ml3 opt free to you m8 if you want tel 01698 427551

[Guest Owen]

I have to admit that you have me confused. The best way to vaccinate your birds is to do it twice. Once at weaning and again at 4 week after using a water based vaccine. I can not imagine what was in the straw you used in the basket but I would be very suspicious of it. It is worth remembering that birds in general including pigeons can not handle polluted air. Their breathing apparatus is much more efficient than that of mammals but it is also vulnerable to pollution. Levels of pollution that mammals would not even notice will make birds ill and even kill them. The best example is probably what happens to canaries when they get a sniff of gas down the mine. They will drop dead before a human is even aware that there is a problem. Pigeons deprived fresh air in enclosed lofts will become ill with respiratory problems and instead of the owner ventilating the place they give their birds antibiotics. The result of which is usually the birds losing their immunity and coming down with serious yeast infections. If I am right the business of treating them with a strong drug will have magnified the problem. If you do decide to use antibiotics which I think is a silly idea you must follow up with something to treat the yeast flare up that will surely follow. Lugols iodine and chopped garlic in the water usually does the trick. Multivitamins can help but it is much better to ensure that the birds have access to both mixed grit fresh daily and direct sunshine. The grit will be better still if you mix crumbled clay blocks and Vitamineral into it.

If I were you I would leave the birds alone to get over their trauma because given time I am pretty sure they will. Some people will tell you to dose them with all sorts of crap but I am sure that they are better off without it. If you want to be sure that the birds are clear of infections why not have the Vet check their droppings and swabs rather than guess. The last thing those birds need right now is the extra burden of various chemicals and certainly not disinfectants.

The best way to basket train young pigeons is to fit a crate onto the front of the loft so that they can run in and out of it. Sprinkle a pinch of seed into the crate when you pass and fit drinkers to the crate. After a sort period remove all the drinkers from the loft so that the birds must drink in the crate. After feeding the birds splash water into the drinkers from a watering can or similar. The birds will learn to be confident in the crate and will be easy to get them into the crate for training. I leave these crates in place for weeks so that the birds are totally familiar with them. A major benefit of doing it this way is that you will no longer have to catch the birds and they will be spared to upset of being forced to do something that scares the living daylights out of them. You will also find that by avoiding the stresses and strains of forced handling and confinement will reduce your losses considerably.

I hope your birds recover from their upset.

Let us know what happens.

Owen

[blaz]

with yb,s flying for 2 hours plus then stopped given a jag put in basket for 7 days then tablet . it could very well be just cramp i would wait a bit before giving any more treatment. if just cramp the stress in birds will also be very high as birds won,t know whats hit them. to learn yb,s how to cope in basket put gully pots in nest boxes .then yb,s from nest boxs straight in to baskets for week. thrush is posibil with yb,s getting a jag then an antibiotic with system fighting their jag. then again with it being flagyl 400 should take care of thrush.i would put a dose of multi vits in water

[blaz]

with yb,s flying for 2 hours plus then stopped given a jag put in basket for 7 days then tablet . it could very well be just cramp i would wait a bit before giving any more treatment. if just cramp the stress in birds will also be very high as birds won,t know whats hit them. to learn yb,s how to cope in basket put gully pots in nest boxes .then yb,s from nest boxs straight in to baskets for week. thrush is posibil with yb,s getting a jag then an antibiotic with system fighting their jag. then again with it being flagyl 400 should take care of thrush.i would put a dose of multi vits in water

 

also going with thought it might be just cramp after 7 days in basket all yb,s would be bathed in as hot water as your hands can stand

[REDCHEQHEN]

If you have given your birds a full 400mg tablet of flagyl - I am surprised they are still alive

 

They are not designed for pigeons (whoever told you that?)

 

I personally would never give young birds a dose bigger than 50mg or old birds 100mg (but would give more than one dose)

[Guest bigda]

Metrodizonal is "FLAGYL 400" designed for pigeons

 

 

that is for canker mainly ,and urine infection and you would need to cut it into 4, but its recomeneded it is at a 1/8 of a tab at that strenght, wich is 50mg per birds take the birds out, put in a box of straw and feed very little of a light feed barley for a few days, pm walter he might have something for you

[blaz]

the spanish flagyl tablets are for thrush in women.a 1/4 treats birds for canker and any form of thrush.i expect the pigeon type is much the same. will also add got my mum a few years back to buy a load of flagyl tablets when in spain. take what my ear got when i told her what their ment for

 

canker like thrush are both fungal

[ForestForever74]

this issue has been on our mind recently so its very interesting to hear what everybody has got to say.

[walterboswell59]

i give my birds half a flagyl with no problems yb to the first year i got them i went to my chemist and asked what they were for he said they were for urine infections not thrush all antibiotics cause thrush they do not cure it you must treat for thush after any antibiotic and give mutivits natural yougurt can be used for the thush on the feed or two large tbl spoons in the drinker on the feed works faster but a bit messy and anyone who vacinates heathy birds twice in weeks is wasting there time and money one dose protects the bird for 12 months you do not get any more protection bye jagging them twice the people who started this fad were trying to cure birds that allready had it but it does not work if they have parra or adenovirus it has to run its course all you can do is treat for secondary infections of which thrush or fungal is first to attack then canker and cocci as i explained in a previos post on vacination and again the cure is we must all jag every bird in the loft at the same time no jagging while training or racing this is why it flairs up at this time every year fanciers jag then put them in training van or race baskets before the 14 day from vacination date is up and during this time the adenovirus is coming through the birds dropings any infecting the birds allready jagged and clear and so the cycle starts again and keeps going as long as people vacinate at different times and dont keep them away from other peoples birds for 14 days you will keep getting it sorry i went a bit off track but it pisses me off because the cure is stareing us in the face we must all jag together the way we use to and end ybs for good

[Tony C]

I have heard of youngsters acting like this that were mid a canker treatment (course of Ronidazol). The solution was made up to strong resulting in the youngsters acting as if drunk. Could be the Flygal is having the same sort of effect!, in 24 hours you should see an improvement if this is so.

[peter pandy]

My apologies to all in not replying last night. Really valid excuse.

The droppings are hard, small, dark with white tops and none are watery. When in the basket Abidec Multivitamin was added to the drinking water at 0.2 ml per litre for the last 3 days. They have been out the basket not the loft since Wednesday and no improvement has been noticed.

Some of the replies have stated cramp as a possible problem and I must confess we have just had the warmest last 12 days to my recollection for many a year with the temperature in the loft around the 40 centigrade mark although I have had my external fans going at full speed and roof vents open so there was ample ventilation but it was still pretty hot.

Could it be they have sweated all the salts from their body ? which would in my experience give extremely painful muscular cramps ?.

If so I will try a wee experiment and give them a shot of Tonic Water with Quinine as recommended to me when I had that particular problem and brought instant relief on my Doctor's orders. I wont include the Gin as its too expensive..

[Wiley]

Have you tried Calcium and Magnisium supplementation, Dr Brokamps product is especially for wing lock and that's two of the main components. Personally if no sign of Improvement After 48 hours I'd expect Streptaccocal infection but that is my opinion.

[just ask me]

Nystatain great for thrush

 

I vacinate my birds twice once at weaning and again a month after I don't do it because there sick far from it

[dal2]

My apologies to all in not replying last night. Really valid excuse.

The droppings are hard, small, dark with white tops and none are watery. When in the basket Abidec Multivitamin was added to the drinking water at 0.2 ml per litre for the last 3 days. They have been out the basket not the loft since Wednesday and no improvement has been noticed.

Some of the replies have stated cramp as a possible problem and I must confess we have just had the warmest last 12 days to my recollection for many a year with the temperature in the loft around the 40 centigrade mark although I have had my external fans going at full speed and roof vents open so there was ample ventilation but it was still pretty hot.

Could it be they have sweated all the salts from their body ? which would in my experience give extremely painful muscular cramps ?.

If so I will try a wee experiment and give them a shot of Tonic Water with Quinine as recommended to me when I had that particular problem and brought instant relief on my Doctor's orders. I wont include the Gin as its too expensive..

Cramp? Really?

The Pharmacetuical wife just told me that she is surprised yer pigeons are still alive. Flagyl is a brand and the drug is metronidazole which side affects such as Nausia, vomiting, pancreatitis, dizzyness, drowsiness etc.

Recommended dose for a CHILD 125mg every 8hrs for 3 days

[Wiley]

Many pigeon fanciers in my opinion should have a copy of The British Medical Associations Guide to Medicine and Drugs. It's a must for any pigeon mans library.

[Guest IB]

The problem probably stems not from a single event but a combination of events.

 

1) the birds went directly from free-ranging hard exercise to being confined in a basket for 7 days, for basket training. The temperatures have been around 20+C for weeks, so if these birds didn't find the water quick enough, they'd suffer heat stress. Birds exercised hard then confined for lengthy periods e.g. a holdover, are known to 'lock up' in the basket. That could have affected their flying ability.

 

2) the birds were vaccinated then medicated within the vaccination immunisation period. I think one challenge is enough, especially for a YB, and the vaccination instructions do infer no other medication is to be given within the 14 day immunisation period. From what others say, the medication was for humans and overdosed 4x for birds, and apparently even at the correct dose can cause sickness in birds.

 

3) pigeons do not have sweat glands like mammals and so cannot lose salt in this way.

 

My advice is to do nothing other than ensure plenty fresh water and grub, and allow the birds time to recover their previous fitness.

[dal2]

Many pigeon fanciers in my opinion should have a copy of The British Medical Associations Guide to Medicine and Drugs. It's a must for any pigeon mans library.

A BNF is wot ye want