When To Medicate?

[delboy74]

20 minutes from vets no waiting about treatment immediate and if went through birds that quick then surely the weakness is within the flock already probably by been propped up with medication junkies don't run marathons

your just guessing :emoticon-0136-giggle: :emoticon-0136-giggle:

[OLDYELLOW]

i think if your the god in the loft its up to you wich way to treet and who stays and who goes and one who treets and wins and the ones that dont treet and thare birds immune systems are ok and win are better of all roads lead to rome but i would say thare more top flyers that treat than ones that dont but wet canker treatment is a must and the spores of mouldie s h i t is a killer that leads to a lot of problems

everyone to there own quite right for me I test first treat if needed probably saved me many headaches and lots of money and my birds health long term

 

your just guessing :emoticon-0136-giggle: :emoticon-0136-giggle:

:emoticon-0140-rofl: :emoticon-0140-rofl:

[Wiley]

No as were all genetically different some will be stronger than others some weaker two dwarfs can have a healthy normal child and two normal adults could have a dwarf child , and with age your immune system gets stronger then as you get older weakens again so somewhere in the middle you'd be at your prime , but genes can make you either weak or strong , jmo

In a way then you have contradicted yourself by saying the genetic make up is all different, hence the genetic make up is different for each bird in your loft so consequently stating that all birds would need to be tested and not just the odd one or two that your taking samples from as there genes are either weak or strong

[Guest KING BILLY]

I simply collect droppings from each box / perch then these are mixed into a paste , I take one bird the doggiest looking one in the loft , a full test costs £30 probably far less than what it would cost for 1 course of medication . Remember every loft has it's own unique resistance to ailments and as a flock they will all come into contact with each other ( they all drink from same drinker ). So I think my method I've used since 1992 in keeping my flock health is working I've still got birds going back to my originals in 92/93 that are winning now , never treated for paratyphoid and why would you treat birds for something they never had or got .

if you have had the same famlie of doos sins 92\93 you should no by now the carrers and wots the best way how to treet your own doos and wot pops up now and again in your doos when you send for the testing could you tell us wot is the most thing that you have to treet for and y you just dont regaly treet changing difrent products so thay dont get ammun to the same treet ment

[Tony C]

Paratyphoid is just about the worse thing that can hit a flock of pigeons. Whilst I dont advocate vaccinating against this I would advise anyone that have brought several pigeons in to give them a 14 day course of treatment against it, especially if they've been bought in from more than one loft.

 

A negative result from a droppings test doesn't guarantee your pigeons a free from paratyphoid, each individual pigeons has to be tested several times as they dont always pass the bacteria in their droppings.

 

No pigeon is immune to worms so I would advice treating against these.

 

Canker: some treat some dont, I'm one of those that dont.

[Guest strapper]

doesnt make a difference what health strength is in your birds if deadly illnesses come calling like salmonella and e coli!

the strength or barrier or imune system what ever you choose to call it,their there to fight off illnesses when you got them!...it wont stop them calling !!! fact!

so this massive theory that a strong immune system will ward off germs/bugs whatever is just fantasy.

 

most vaccines are made to give info to the immune system when a stronger version comes calling, thus enabling the immune system to act asap instead of wondering what this intrusion is.

 

i personally would ALWAYS flock treat if a bird is diagnosed with canker/cocci what ever.

they have been drinking and feeding out of the same items and most deffinately they would have contracted some form of the illness of the affected bird.

 

never count out anything and always suspect there is more than one ill bird.

 

i would say i have an above average knowledge of medications/illnesses but i like anybody else, have my limitations.

[andy Burgess]

doesnt make a difference what health strength is in your birds if deadly illnesses come calling like salmonella and e coli!

the strength or barrier or imune system what ever you choose to call it,their there to fight off illnesses when you got them!...it wont stop them calling !!! fact!

so this massive theory that a strong immune system will ward off germs/bugs whatever is just fantasy.

 

most vaccines are made to give info to the immune system when a stronger version comes calling, thus enabling the immune system to act asap instead of wondering what this intrusion is.

 

i personally would ALWAYS flock treat if a bird is diagnosed with canker/cocci what ever.

they have been drinking and feeding out of the same items and most deffinately they would have contracted some form of the illness of the affected bird.

 

never count out anything and always suspect there is more than one ill bird.

 

i would say i have an above average knowledge of medications/illnesses but i like anybody else, have my limitations.

i would agree you have a knowledge , that many dont Paul , having identified and advised me in the past.

[dal2]

doesnt make a difference what health strength is in your birds if deadly illnesses come calling like salmonella and e coli!

the strength or barrier or imune system what ever you choose to call it,their there to fight off illnesses when you got them!...it wont stop them calling !!! fact!

so this massive theory that a strong immune system will ward off germs/bugs whatever is just fantasy.

 

most vaccines are made to give info to the immune system when a stronger version comes calling, thus enabling the immune system to act asap instead of wondering what this intrusion is.

 

i personally would ALWAYS flock treat if a bird is diagnosed with canker/cocci what ever.

they have been drinking and feeding out of the same items and most deffinately they would have contracted some form of the illness of the affected bird.

 

never count out anything and always suspect there is more than one ill bird.

 

i would say i have an above average knowledge of medications/illnesses but i like anybody else, have my limitations.

 

At last!!!!! :egyptian: :egyptian:Well said indeed.

 

In the 90s we killed a whole loft full in the october as a result of salmonella

Hard thing to do but best for the birds as they just died day after day!

We thought we had ahardy bunch of 500 milers which wer gettin top positions from the SNFC just three months before!!! No weaklngs there??

 

When you race yer birds they are in with everybody elses so must pick up illness at some point?

 

My treatments regarding worming,canker etc are the things that are routine every year, so I will stick to it.

[greenlands]

I was always lead to believe that you can have a para carrier in the loft and it won't show until they are pushed that little bit too far with some other bacterial attack then they outbreak catches fire.You might think the problems gone but it's always in the back of your mind,is there still a carrier.??

[Rooster J. Cogburn]

Interesting to see these diffferent points of view on the treating of our pigeons.Some of it is scary stuff

[johnnyksspeedshop]

Interesting to see these diffferent points of view on the treating of our pigeons.Some of it is scary stuff

 

I agree. This will be my first year competitively racing, but flew tipplers for a long time. I never medicated my tipplers, and they were always in top shape. Medication can often kill off the good bacteria in the gut, and thats what scares me most, because thats when bacteria that may be considered normal flora in proper amounts can really take over and become the predominant organism and cause disease. Hence, antibiotics should be used very carefully, otherwise at wrong dosages these organisms build resistance and become much more dangerous. The big difference is, however, in tipplers your flying against other lofts and your birds are never mixed, unlike racing, where your birds are all in the same basket. So, I have to come to a conclusion on how I will precede with medications as well. I think I may vaccinate for PMV, but most bacterial problems seem to be the cause of a bad immune system to begin with, possibly due to over medication.

[Guest Gareth Rankin]

An interesting article by Wim Peters revealed that tests were done by Baaij in Belgium at the start of the season and it was found that from the 1018 samples from the racing panniers 28% were paratyphoid carriers compared to at the end of the season when this figure was 73%.

 

This tells me that Paratyphoid is rife in the sport. Lofts with good husbandry will not no if they have got it until there pigeons are put under stress. Such as a 500 mile race where it is too late as they will not get home.

 

Paratyphoid nowadays is the biggest killer of form in the loft, it also makes me wonder about some of the feds horrendous young bird races over the last few years, when liberation is not spot on this could be down to Electrical interference, weather, clashing and bops then the young birds are put into a stressed state and because of this orientation then becomes a huge problem for these immature young birds, some that are only 4 months old and are in the moult.jmo

[tiger]

treat my birds with para stop and treat for canker and worms before pairing up

[dal2]

treat my birds with para stop and treat for canker and worms before pairing up

Looks like your silly to then mate!!! just like me!!

[Novice]

Looks like your silly to then mate!!! just like me!!

 

Now now Stevie your cynical side is showing

[geordie1234]

An interesting article by Wim Peters revealed that tests were done by Baaij in Belgium at the start of the season and it was found that from the 1018 samples from the racing panniers 28% were paratyphoid carriers compared to at the end of the season when this figure was 73%.

 

This tells me that Paratyphoid is rife in the sport. Lofts with good husbandry will not no if they have got it until there pigeons are put under stress. Such as a 500 mile race where it is too late as they will not get home.

 

Paratyphoid nowadays is the biggest killer of form in the loft, it also makes me wonder about some of the feds horrendous young bird races over the last few years, when liberation is not spot on this could be down to Electrical interference, weather, clashing and bops then the young birds are put into a stressed state and because of this orientation then becomes a huge problem for these immature young birds, some that are only 4 months old and are in the moult.jmo

That is very interesting mate, how do you reckon we can prevent this or get the percentage down?

[Guest IB]

It is an interesting thread, and one in which I was not going to become involved. Gareth mentions an article by Wim Peters and I have posted a link to it. The article is undated, and it doesn't say when these tests in Belgium took place, but it is still very informative..

 

http://www.nfpa.co.za/drcorner/70%20Paratyphoid%20revisited%20_3_.pdf

 

I started to gather information on salmonella in 2010, and was to have an email exchange with Wim Peters on a paratyphoid article he published in BHW. But first tracking down the information on, and the salmonella expert in Britain, and getting him to respond, has put that on indefinite hold.

 

I'm sure I've raised this one before (I think the link is the same BHW article).

 

1. Salmonella live in cells within the body. They are unlikely to be found in the bird's droppings... see (2).

 

2. In Belgium & Holland, they use live vaccines for Paratyphoid. Live vaccine sheds -that means it is passed in the birds droppings. That could be a reason for finding salmonella in race baskets. The use of Live vaccine in Britain is largely banned because it endangers the environment. Salmonella and e-coli are related organisms, they can swap genes. Nothing to prevent e-coli re-activating genetically altered salmonella in a vaccination.

 

3. Acidification of drinking water may in fact help salmonella acclimatise to higher acid levels (low Ph) and survive the stomach & bile acids. Cider Acid Vinegar is less acidic than Orange juice, yet salmonella infected, survived and multiplied in Orange juice in USA, causing an outbreak of the disease in humans in a number of States. It was thought survival in the orange juice 'prepped' the salmonella to survive the acid in the human gut.

 

4. IMO the most worrying fact about salmonella is that it can live inside the killer cells that mop up the bad guys in the gut. Those cells then take them across the gut wall deep into the body's immune tissues, where they in turn are killed by another killer cell - and that releases the salmonella bacteria to invade the major internal organs.

 

5. From 'Avian Immunity' - 'The gut is a major site of development, residence and portal of entry for pathogenic microorganisms into the deeper body tissues, therefore any perturbation of gut physiology often results in substantial clinical consequences. Hence, an effective immune capability in the gut is essential to combat the plethora of pathogenic microorganisms that reside in, and pass through, this tissue'.

[dwh]

tried both ways ans has'nt made a spec of difference to our season now to our

wallet !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

have got to say the pre testing way cost us a fekin mint

[Guest strapper]

I agree. This will be my first year competitively racing, but flew tipplers for a long time. I never medicated my tipplers, and they were always in top shape. Medication can often kill off the good bacteria in the gut, and thats what scares me most, because thats when bacteria that may be considered normal flora in proper amounts can really take over and become the predominant organism and cause disease. Hence, antibiotics should be used very carefully, otherwise at wrong dosages these organisms build resistance and become much more dangerous. The big difference is, however, in tipplers your flying against other lofts and your birds are never mixed, unlike racing, where your birds are all in the same basket. So, I have to come to a conclusion on how I will precede with medications as well. I think I may vaccinate for PMV, but most bacterial problems seem to be the cause of a bad immune system to begin with, possibly due to over medication.

 

baterial problems are down to bacteria in the loft or passed on by other pigeons etc..it is not down to a bad immune system, over medication is down to bad management and not by those that medicate correctly!

medication is blamed by a lot of fanciers who some admit to not knowing about medications for all these problems we have in the sport,the truth is that medications dont ruin pigeons, its fanciers that ruin pigeons!!!

anyone in the know of medications will tell you exactly the same and i think a better education by fanciers about medications, will see a reduced problem in our lofts in general.

there is no magic potion out there and only the correct procedure with medicine will help your birds and you.

there is a load of rubbish stuff on the market and this isnt helping the fancier,argubly most medications on the market isnt what we really need ,and it just adds to more frustration and cost to fanciers who use it and disscover it isnt helping.

a good reputable provider of medications is the person to see and there aint many about...i have a few sources who i use often(when needed)

there is lots of advice on here ,but some albeit trying to help isnt the right thing.

[johnnyksspeedshop]

Its also interesting to see this in light of feral pigeons. Feral pigeons are stressed everyday by environmental factors, predators,and access to food/water. If 1/4 of the racing pigeons carry salmonella carriers before the races, and 3/4 after then I wonder the percent carriers in a feral population and how often they survive. Also, according to that figure, does this mean that 3/4 of racing pigeons were not vaccinated for salmonella?

[johnnyksspeedshop]

baterial problems are down to bacteria in the loft or passed on by other pigeons etc..it is not down to a bad immune system, over medication is down to bad management and not by those that medicate correctly!

medication is blamed by a lot of fanciers who some admit to not knowing about medications for all these problems we have in the sport,the truth is that medications dont ruin pigeons, its fanciers that ruin pigeons!!!

anyone in the know of medications will tell you exactly the same and i think a better education by fanciers about medications, will see a reduced problem in our lofts in general.

there is no magic potion out there and only the correct procedure with medicine will help your birds and you.

there is a load of rubbish stuff on the market and this isnt helping the fancier,argubly most medications on the market isnt what we really need ,and it just adds to more frustration and cost to fanciers who use it and disscover it isnt helping.

a good reputable provider of medications is the person to see and there aint many about...i have a few sources who i use often(when needed)

there is lots of advice on here ,but some albeit trying to help isnt the right thing.

 

Over medication is due to the fancier, but we also see it in the human setting administered by those who should know better, like doctors, so its hard to say a fancier wont do it when a doctor will. I mean, look at all the superbugs we created from not medicating correctly Vancomycin Resistant Enterococcus, Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus, Extend Spectrum Betalactamase producers, etc. Now most of us "carry" S. aureus on the skin, but it is most often a problem in nosocomial infections due to the patients poor immune system. The problems are not exactly down to only the bacterias presence, but your bodys ability to fight it off. The immune system! In fact, thats all a vaccine does, is pass a pathogen recognition pattern to the hosts immune system. That being said, I plan to vaccinate for PMV and paratyphoid, because they are a preventative measure. In my opinion, antibiotics should never be used as a preventative measure, and can cause more harm than good my wiping out normal flora which help prevent the growth of pathogens.

[andy Burgess]

Over medication is due to the fancier, but we also see it in the human setting administered by those who should know better, like doctors, so its hard to say a fancier wont do it when a doctor will. I mean, look at all the superbugs we created from not medicating correctly Vancomycin Resistant Enterococcus, Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus, Extend Spectrum Betalactamase producers, etc. Now most of us "carry" S. aureus on the skin, but it is most often a problem in nosocomial infections due to the patients poor immune system. The problems are not exactly down to only the bacterias presence, but your bodys ability to fight it off. The immune system! In fact, thats all a vaccine does, is pass a pathogen recognition pattern to the hosts immune system. That being said, I plan to vaccinate for PMV and paratyphoid, because they are a preventative measure. In my opinion, antibiotics should never be used as a preventative measure, and can cause more harm than good my wiping out normal flora which help prevent the growth of pathogens.

wow Johny , i thought you were a complete novice ? it appears you know more than many of us ??

[fid]

I intend treating against paratyphiod soon,what is best= 14 days treatment with parrastop,injection,or both?

[Guest strapper]

Over medication is due to the fancier, but we also see it in the human setting administered by those who should know better, like doctors, so its hard to say a fancier wont do it when a doctor will. I mean, look at all the superbugs we created from not medicating correctly Vancomycin Resistant Enterococcus, Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus, Extend Spectrum Betalactamase producers, etc. Now most of us "carry" S. aureus on the skin, but it is most often a problem in nosocomial infections due to the patients poor immune system. The problems are not exactly down to only the bacterias presence, but your bodys ability to fight it off. The immune system! In fact, thats all a vaccine does, is pass a pathogen recognition pattern to the hosts immune system. That being said, I plan to vaccinate for PMV and paratyphoid, because they are a preventative measure. In my opinion, antibiotics should never be used as a preventative measure, and can cause more harm than good my wiping out normal flora which help prevent the growth of pathogens.

 

hi johnny, i never medicate my pigeons unless they are ill...something ive learned over the years to do..i have studied pigeons medications for a number of years and although i dont know it all i do know enough to get by shall we say.

 

one thing ive learned is to never medicate if there is no sign of illness and yes you are right too many doctors these days do give out medications more than they should in humans.

but some vets can also be said to be doing just that!

i dont bother with many medications on the market for obvious reasons and stick to what i know best.

under medicating is just as big a problem as over medicating because both bring on the same problems in illnesses getting immune to these.

i would never use baytril untill its absolutely nescesery,opting to use a more controllable medication like amoxicillin.

canker has also gained momentum with wild birds being found to have this problem that many thought was a pigeon ilness.

i believe that there are too many meds on the market that dont do their job and the uk has a policy of only allowing 5% strength in most treatments.

while on the continent they are allowed to sell the 10% strength..which i personally feel is a better option as it zaps the canker rather then mildly attacking it in its 5% form.

better understanding

[Rooster J. Cogburn]

This is something I read by Ad Schaerlaeckens on treating pigeons and Tooshy's favoutrite-the vet

 

Some interesting points

 

"From when I was a kid I remember that my parents, my neighbours, the friends of my parents and my uncles (nearly everybody had pigeons in those days) often discussed the theme ‘with or without a vet’.

 

One group said birds should stay in good health by themselves, those that get sick should be eliminated, others said that without a vet or medication one should forget nice performances.

 

But times have changed.

 

Apart from some ‘sprint guys’ (whose birds only stay in the baskets for one night) the majority of today’s fanciers visit a vet every now and then, how often varies.

 

Some only consult a vet in case of problems, others twice a year (before the racing and the breeding season) and some see a vet weekly.

 

Of course such a vet should be a pigeon man and very few are.

 

A vast majority may know a lot about pigs, dogs, cats or poultry but about pigeons they know nothing.

 

A vet of a younger generation is doctor Vincent Schroeder.

 

He is ambitious and pigeon crazy.

 

For my latest book that I am going to publish late 2008 I had an interview with him. It became a long interview; a short summary maybe interesting for the average fancier.

 

1.

 

Many fanciers are retired, they have little money and find the money for a visit to a vet a waste.

 

Doctor Schroeder thinks they are wrong. Just as humans birds can get sick and if one medicates without consulting a vest they may really waste money since the wrong medicine may be used against the wrong diseases, or even against diseases that birds do not suffer from.

 

2.

 

Pigeons that are raced short distance in cold weather may have a bit canker. But if they are raced further in hot weather he advocates a ‘zero tolerance’ which means the birds must not have the least trichomoniasis; NOTHING AT ALL.

 

3.

 

Fanciers that treat their birds against paratyphoid in fall (6 weeks before mating) do the right thing. He is against vaccinating unless birds are infected. In that case a cure should be followed by an injection.

 

4.

 

He is strongly in favour of apple vinegar. It does not prevent Coli as many people say but once the birds are totally free from canker they will not easily get it if you often give (apple) vinegar, that means nearly daily outside the season.

 

There is no difference between vinegar and apple vinegar apart from the price. He does not believe in vitamins (nor do I) apart from breeders in winter. It should be a proper mix of A, D and E.

 

5.

 

He used to believe in tea but not any more.

 

6.

 

Due to the abuse of medicine more and more birds suffer from Mycosis.

 

Such birds have no appetite and in the crops is too much water or feed that is not digested. In extreme cases the symptoms are similar to those of Adeno Coli which is confusing for many fanciers.

 

7.

 

Some fanciers find streptococci a problem but pigeons very rarely suffer from it.

 

8.

 

He does not believe in ‘one day cures’ after every race. If birds are sick they are not effective, if they are not sick they undermine resistance.

 

9.

 

He found that pigeons may suffer from coccidioses while nothing can be found in the droppings. When birds eat much grit or eat in the yard coccidioses may be the cause.

 

10.

 

The biggest mistakes fanciers make:

 

- They do not select strongly on results and natural health.

 

- They fall for all the crap that is advertised and that pigeons do not need at all.

 

- They have no patience and train their birds too often and at a too young age.

 

- Some finish their birds with Baytril. It must not be given more than 3 days.

 

- After some races fanciers complain about respiratory problems. In most cases birds were already very lightly infected before the season but they get problems after physical exertions.

 

12.

 

There is nothing that you can do to prevent an outbreak of Adeno Coli apart from pray. Vinegar nor acids are effective.

 

13.

 

It happens that fanciers ‘forget’ to vaccinate against paramyxo. When the virus attacks they use La Sota. This is a big mistake. La Sota is a live virus and you will make things worse.

 

Pox is different. In case birds have pox you may vaccinate.

 

14.

 

Do NOT believe in products or medicine that are effective against different diseases.

 

15.

 

The best treatment against canker is the following:

 

A cure of about a week before the season and a cure of 3 days every month during the season. In hot weather one should be careful and birds may be treated every 3 weeks. In cold weather canker is seldom a problem.

 

16.

 

Especially Americans and Asians believe in ‘eye sign’. Eye sign is 100% B.S. for sure

 

17.

 

He has clients from Holland and Belgium. The quality of the birds is the same but Dutch fanciers differ a lot. They are more ambitious, they go for better birds and better methods while many Belgians still believe in the magic bottle.

 

18.

 

Doctor de Weerd claims that pro biotics are a pure waste. His college dr. Schroeder fully agrees "