EYES WHAT U THINK!!!

[pigeonscout]

Why don't you just tell everyone on here what to look for in the eye and they can then go check their top breeders to see if what you say is true?

Lots of birds have two different eyes so what one should we look at the right eye or the left eye?

Does your eyesign tell you what pairs to breed to get winners in a tail wind or a head wind as very few birds are good at both.

If you could do what you say you can do and pick breeders of winners just by looking at their eyesign please show me your winning results for the last 3 years. If your like most eyesign experts I have talked to you wont have any results worth talking about so ask yourself why.

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Albear,

 

I sympathise with your frustrations when dealing with some people while trying to put your beliefs across.

You can even create miracles in your attempt to get your point across and you will never win against people with tunnel vision. These people who are not interested in what you do have not got an open mind.

 

As for your wager, I advise you not to take this person on, if he deprives his birds of water intake for a couple of hours, or gives certain medication or anti- biotic before you are put to the test, I can guarantee you will lose.

 

You must soon realise that your efforts on this list is a complete waste of time, very few if any are gaining any knowledge from these people who oppose you and your beliefs and obviously your opposition is not on here to gain any. I suggest you give it up as a futile exercise. I myself ceased trying to plant any seeds here when I found most of the ground unfertile. You will find that those on this list with fertile minds that feel they can learn something from you, will write to you privately, and those that don't it is their loss.

 

If you are going to go ahead with this wager, for 4000 it must be on your terms. I have many such wagers and years of experience of this under my belt, and can help you to set the stage, to allow you to give a fair critique, I  must add you need his whole breeding loft and authenticated records. Already I believe by offering only eight pigeons he thinks you a fool and is already starting to set you up.

 

Once after giving a seminar in the North East, some people started to pull Bill Carney to pieces about his visit there, I subsequently went to these lofts and subsequently gave a critique on the same pigeons with much better results. Did this make me better than him, I can honestly say no it didn't, I know what the man can do. One thing it did prove however is that I was better prepared than him to take people on who were hell bent to prove him or me wrong.

 

Now Albear do not scrap what I say, see if there is something to be learned from this letter. You can be made to look a fool in these tests if you are not prepared for the little tricks that you will come up against.

 

My father warned me as a teenager, be wary of pigeon men and dog men, although he and I were both of these, the warning has stood me in good stead over the years. To be forewarned is to be forearmed as they say.

 

As a friend from the past, I hope you handle this the right way.

 

Regards

 

Jack

[Saffer]

Pigeonscout

 

You a wise man. Put the wager up, you cannot loose.

 

Its like playing the Lotto for an Eye expert,

 

Regards saffer

[Guest]

Thanks Jack, appreciate your comments and fully agree....... but why would I want to put £4000 down. Scout is the one with all the mouth saying I can't do it!! I've told him I can, I'm not challenging him, he is challenging me, he is telling me I can't do it. So I'm saying OK buddy let me do it to you, he ain't got the balls to let me, he wants me to put down £4000 to prove something to him, what's £4000 got to do withit, except dig him out of a hole.

If he is so adamant that I can't do it, why does he need me to put £4000 down. This is about proving if I can , he wants to be the man who can say to his friends 'look what I did' but he's scared at the back of his mind he's thinking what if he can??

Money's got nowt to do with this, he either has some balls or walks, his choice. I ain't being bullied in to owt, he says I can't do it but he's not prepared to allow me.

If I get it wrong I don't get his birds and he can do his male macho bit and slag me off. Simple, sorted, point proved, one way or the other.

[pigeonscout]

Albear it was you who first put down the wager by saying you would keep the birds if you where right. Why would anyone let you come to their loft and have a guess as to what their best breeding pairs are and if you guess it right you keep the birds and if you get it wrong you loss nothing? I have the balls to put up 4 birds worth a hell of a lot more than the £4000 im asking you to put up. But you don't have to put up £4000 in order to prove you can do it. Just name me 10 winners you have breed in the last two years That's not many to ask a man who can pick the breeders of winners by looking at their eye. show me the proof you can pick breeders of winners by showing me your winners it is that simple. Don't try and make people believe your a marksman if you cannot hit the target?

[Thumper_]

Do you guys ever post eyes and discuss them or just argue about it's validity?

 

Just asking... :

[Wiley]

thumper if u look at the other pages on thsi thread there is some eyes mate

[Guest]

Pigeonsacout diversionary tactics again, I'm fed up with bulls**t. I ain't here to be macho man, this is going nowhere.  I made an evaluation, you find it hard to believe eevn though its there in black and eye, I confirm it wqas no fluke and I can do it anywhere, you reckon that's a stupid thing to say and tell me I can't. I'm willing to prove it by picking your best, your afraid to let me cause you might lose your best. You throw in a diversion come up with £4000!! :D

You ask me about matching I give you an explanation you completley ignore.

MR Staf Van Reet pretends to be someone he isn't , Stuart posts an eye claiming it is a sprinter, then admits its a top top long distance pigeon, only after he has behind the scenes been discussing with his cronnies how to approach this. Then out of the bluewhen this thread is fairly ddead scout appears and for his first post scrolls past many topics , to come down to this one and decides this is for him!!! Yeah I'm a pleb, is that a familiar term to you guys?

I have no need of your negativity, it ain't a problem if you want for whatever reason to disbelieve me and to try and belittle me.

But the facts are simple in black and white, I was spot on with my evaluations and then fanciers came on to decieve me and everyone else on this forum by claiming this they are not.

I reckon they were and are treating everyone of us like plebs.

I'm content to leave this now and let everyone read the topic right through and come to their own conclusions. I don't want this to get boring or out of hand.

Pigeon Scout may I finish by offering you a special discount to you because its xmas , I will come and pair your birds for the Special xmas price of  £4000, I must be having a senior moment!! Where the chuff did I get such a stupid amount from!! ;D

Stu. whoever? I can only close by saying what I have said on here has been totally truthful and honest, I realise you find it hard to belive but I can say no more.

And I bare no malice to any and wish everyone a merry xmas and happy new year.

To Jack my best wishes and I hope Sid et all are getting things back together.

[Thumper_]

More arguements actually...

 

Let those that believe in eye-sign comment, if you don't just stay out of it...

[Guest]

Just one other thing I forgot sorry............to Ben thank uou for your support he and I have e mailed infrequently over the past couple of years after having a few words on PIPA!! I would like to say if ever I was in a dodgy position needing help or a friend, if there was one prson I had to rely on 100% it would be Ben, though we have never met he has my total respect as a person and for his knowledge

Very best wishes my friend

[Silverdale Lofts]

Albear i support you 100% ive studied eyesign for over 35 years. But i must agree with Jack Barkel you wont win with the non belivers.

[pigeonscout]

You say im using diversionary tactics? all I ask was for you to tell me the winners you have produced after all your the man that claims he can pick breeders of winners by looking at their eye. I don't need you to pair my birds to produce winners I have done that every year from I started in the sport. But if you have no winners to show me it is you that needs me.

Now all I will say to you, that can pick winners from eyesign is show me your race results. Show me the winners these bird you pick breed. I have now ask you three times to show me the winners. Why don't you show me and shut me up, instead of going round in circles, just show me the winners. You say you can pick breeders of winners by looking at their eye I say you cannot. Show me you can by showing me your winners.

[schouwman71]

i know a man who visited jos and was the first to buy them,and he stated that the eyes were crap but the class of the pigeon were great,my sootjen cock what won many first in club and over 15x1sts in 2bird club was out of these birds but the eye on him was the old nut brown eye with no detail or wide circle at all,but he thrashed the pants off my others when raced espacially when there was north winds.

[Guest]

;D

[Saffer]

Pigeonscout

 

You a clever fancier, you have put forward great counter points.

Not blind but yet to see them answered by the eye experts.

 

Why can an Eye man select me breeders of winners, yet cannot even be a Club champion.

With all this, surely, its certain that he will be a topper.

Yet to see this, simple pigeon men remain our champions.

 

Thumper, Great eye there. Would grace any stock loft.

 

All the Best

 

Saffer

[Thumper_]

Hi Saffer,

 

Very contradicting post?

 

You seem to criticise eye-sign fanciers in one paragraph and in the next comment on an eye saying it would be good for stock?

 

Strange...

 

Or am I misinterpriting your stance on the issue, I am not in a mood to read through all 100+ posts of arguements to figure it out though...

[Saffer]

Thumper

 

I have been around and back again. I have an open mind.

This topic relates to eyes, you asked about opinion.

So I gave one, I think its a great one.

A Eye that is not seen as often as when I lived in South Africa.

Typical of the local birds, and what they would call long distance here.

Show me a tail, wing and I will give my opinion.

This relates to the Eye. I like it, nothing more nothing less.

I dont follow theory, but results. Dont have a stance, the Eye is

one of many things.

Been on many forms, dont have my humour or contradictions left.

 

Hope you enjoying that Sunshine, as an ex-pat I envy you. 8)

 

Regards

 

Saffer

[Saffer]

Thumper

 

On that eye, If its a 1-2 year old, at 3-4 years it will have a far richer iris.

My Guess, and its a 1000/1 guess, its a youngish bird thats done well on the road.

It will make a good stock pigeon, if the breeding, balance and vitality is right.

As I say I am making a big guess, it might be totally the opposite.

 

Regards Saffer

[pigeonscout]

Thumper nice picture my option is if the pigeon can see out of it then it is a good eye.

[Jack Barkel]

Hello All,

 

I consider myself a professional eye and pigeon evaluater, if that means an expert, then so be it, and I herewith give my background in defence.

 

It is obvious that this thread is used by some people just to prove eye sign to be only applied by idiots and fakes, however I feel that some challenges cannot be allowed to go uncontested although some are not even worth a reply.

 

First let me say races are even won by people who know next to nothing about pigeons, and it is not only my belief, but that I also know that short to middle distance races are won by those who put in the most work i.e. 75% fancier 25% pigeon. Long distance classics are won by 75% pigeon 25% fancier. Having said this I have won the fastest race over the shortest distance in our union since its inception. I have also bred a South African Middle Distance National Champion on the coefficient system with 886,008 birds competing in this coefficient pool. This was off a long distance Busschaert family of Dr Jeff Horn origin Up North Combine.

 

Our club of 30 plus members have closed the clocks on several occasions, when the Union have still flown the next day for points. They have done this because when most other fanciers have clocked only one or two or maybe none in hard long races with a ten bird limit, I have clocked anything from 7 to 10 of my entries all on the race sheet. So although club points were all taken up the union was still open for points.

Now I have never been club champion but I have been Long Distance Champion, I also had a good record with my brother as Barkel Brothers in Club, Federation and Combine in the North East of England before coming to South Africa. I have concentrated mainly on selection and breeding, only using the racing aspect of the sport lightly to test my theories. Any fair minded person who knows me can vouch for this.

 

In my first book I filled a full chapter on results of people who were winning out of turn with either my ratings and pairings, or my methods or my birds. I will match my records to be either better or comparable with anyone here who's desire it is to prove eye sign fake.

There are people on pigeon basics who have won Thousands with my selections. I will be prepared to travel anywhere in the world to prove my point but we will select a loft of pigeons unknown to both of us, we will view the pigeons and correlate our findings on our computers, in a hall where scrutinizers will watch to see there is no cheating. I have never lost a wager yet of this kind. If I have to travel to England or where ever, I will expect the loser to pay all air fares and expenses for two. If he and a companion are willing to fly to South Africa I will do the same if I lose here, I warn you it is hardly likely. The competitor will not be allowed to look in the eye as he is out to condemn this tool, where I will use everything at my disposal, condemning nothing.

 

Remember most eye sign people are ordinary fanciers not equipped with the extra knowledge or experience to contest the aggravation they get on a forum like this. Most of them I would like to think are here to try and pass on some of their experience and knowledge, I know that was my reason for being here in the first place, and not to polish my marble, I leave that to others to do for me.

 

Now, it is not a pleasant sight to see a probably well thought of fancier dismantled on the stage because of his dogged disbelief in something that is even being proved by science, biology and genetics.

 

If you wish to challenge me to use this tool against you instead of for you it is your choice, but I ask you for the last time do not condemn eye sign people just because you do not comprehend, or because some write and yet may know very little about the subject. It is everyone's perfect right to question any theory or method, but by condemning it without understanding it is shear ignorance.

 

There are several of us in the world today, a small band of Pigeon Iridologists, that share this common interest and support, combining our knowledge and experience which we believe is for the betterment of the sport. We try to avoid disbelievers, sceptics, or braggarts who do believe, and we are ever watchful that none of these infiltrate our society, and if it was not for the total condemnation of eye sign on this forum I would not have decided to write this letter.

 

I have no axe to grind with anyone, I know myself and my colleagues have something to offer, but have decided I will only offer it to fertile minds. I do not need to prove anything to anyone, my records in this field speak for themselves and at 70 years of age I have had all the rewards I expect. Eye sign is not a game with me, it is part of my business and my living. I evaluate in the region of 1000 birds per month, and it is all recorded on CD if anyone doubts my bona fides.

 

One of my New Year Resolutions is to try and steal myself from contributing on here anymore. We tend to argue, condemn, insult, and show very little respect for anything or anybody. Maybe such people will evolve in the future, but I am very pessimistic there can be any improvement while some fanciers attitudes remain as they are here at the moment.

 

I wish you all a very pleasant and peaceful Christmas and may you breed many good pigeons in the New Year, no matter which methods you apply.

 

Jack Barkel

 

[Thumper_]

Actually I dont think I need to read through the posts on this site either...

 

So my stay here will be short and sweet....

 

C ya

There are much better pigeon forums and e-mail groups on the net.

[Wiley]

if u say so mate!Bye farewell

[pigeonscout]

Oldbird

A very nice post but for a man who evaluates in the region of 1000 birds per month 12,000 birds per year. Any man on the planet would get would get results if he paired that many bird for people.

You say you evaluate birds and pairings for fanciers, and that you make a living at it? What I cannot understand is why you don't pick these birds for yourself, breed them and sell the winning offspring. Picking 100 breeding pairs should be no problem for a man with your gift. You should get at least get 4 winners from each pair per year = 400 guaranteed winners per year. If you can do that then not only would you be living in south Africa you could problem buy it.

Could you name me two of the top ten fanciers in the world today that you pair birds for? Can you name me two that use eyesign as the only means of pairing? If you can look into a pigeons eye and tell by its eyesign it is going to breed winners. Then it would not matter if that bird had poor balance, bad feather, was stupid, and comes from a long line of pigeons that did not make the results, that bird according to its eyesign would still breed winners. Do you see how stupid that sounds to me. Please correct me if im wrong but is it not true that most if not all of today's top lofts breed according to performance and quality and not eyesign. To put it another way they do not use eyesign to pair their birds?  

Why is it that the men that claim to have this gift of looking into a birds eye and tell it is going to breed winners never make it to the top of our sport by breeding winners themselves? They are known as eyesign men not winning lofts?

They sell books videos, etc. but never winning birds?

This sport is called pigeon racing our aim is to win races if an eyesign man had a gift of picking breeders of winners by looking into a birds eye. He would be at the very top of this sport. Eyesign men have been about for years it is nothing new and in all that time not one of these gifted men ever made it to the top. Until eyesign men are at the top of this sport by winning races they will never be able to claim that eyesign works.

So for all you eyesign men out there start winning races.

[pigeonscout]

Oldbird

You say, I have also bred a South African Middle Distance National Champion on the coefficient system with 886,008 birds competing in this coefficient pool. This was off a long distance Busschaert family of Dr Jeff Horn origin Up North Combine.

 

You are saying what I have been saying all along it is the genetic back ground that counts not its eyesign. You must know this or you would not have talked about its genetic back ground you would have talked about its parents eyes.

[Roland]

Same eye as on Alberta etc. Thumper... and nothing changes bye