EYES WHAT U THINK!!!

[pigeonscout]

You are making a living telling people how to pair their birds. You are telling them you have this wonderful gift and that the birds you pick will breed them winners. You class yourself as an expert in this field yet with all your experience and gifted eyesign talent you could not breed enough winning birds to make yourself a club champion? All I can say is God help the eyesign men that take your advice. After all if you could not make club champion what chance have they?

[Thumper_]

Same eye as on Alberta etc. Thumper... and nothing changes bye

 

Actually complete different eye Roland...

[pj1001]

Personally I think that it is every individual fanciers choice to whether they believe or disbelieve eyesign and eyesign theories. I have no problem with that and it is everyones individual choice. What I don't agree with however and feel it is disrespectable and very bad form for others to rubbish and criticise fanciers who believe in it and are trying to pass on some of their years of experience and knowledge on to others who are interested in learning more on the topic.

 

When I joined the forum I was a bit sceptical about eyesign to begin with, mainly due to lack of knowledge on the subject. After reading threads on the topic and a number of books on the topic and cross referencing this information with some of the eyes of our best birds I now believe it has some merit.

 

I am still by no means an expert and I doubt if anyone will become an expert in a few years.To me eyesign is a tool that can be used to bred better pigeons but it should be used with a lot of other tools when pairing up pigeons etc. not solely on its own.

 

I don't mind if anyone rubbishes what I have written or not, I do object to what some people have been doing though trying to test others who are only here to try and help others to improve their birds. No one is saying everyone has to follow what is being written but at least they should respect those who are taking their time to try and pass on some of their knowlegde to others free of charge.

 

 

PJ

 

[Guest Silverwings]

eyes ,wings, tails ,muscles,inteligence,feather quality,etc any way that individual fanciers can improve the smallest detail can only benefit our pigeons after all we engineered them its up to us to improve them ? if we let nature take its course, take a closer look at street pigeons ? THEIR  observation and navigation system is in your hands ....ray

[pigeonscout]

pj1001

 

I agree with you when you say,

Personally I think that it is every individual fanciers choice to whether they believe or disbelieve eyesign and eyesign theories.

 

Well, I disbelieve and because I disbelieve I have been called narrow minded.

 

Silverwings

 

Eyes, wings, tails, muscles, inteligence, feather quality, etc any way that individual fanciers can improve the smallest detail can only benefit our pigeons.

 

I also agree with this statement but all of this is only one half of what we need to see in or birds the other half is deep within the bird and it is called hart. Most of us can tell a bad bird just by holding it but in order to tell a winning bird you must race it. Only by racing it can we tell if it has the spirit and will to win. I have said from the start of this, the only way to find out if a bird can breed a winner is to race its offspring. No other method can tell you all the things a good pigeons needs to win including good management.

So for a person to tell me he can go into anyone's loft and pick the birds that will breed him winners just by looking into its eye and when I don't believe him he calls me narrow minded I think I have every right to put my views across.

[Guest Silverwings]

pj1001 your response is very interesting? regarding your opinions on eyesign and the reply you got ,when i first looked at pigeons eyes years ago most of the crack flyers told me i might just as well look up their *expletive removed* ? so i did ? not much interest in that area though ,strange to see those same crack flyers judging at eyesing classes , and when they are handling birds the first thing they look at is the eye ? so i looked a bit more and read the  bishop book and watced the man carney ,and then formed my own opinions , as for all the gradings colours and markings each unto his own choice ,rules that may apply in the eyes of one family dont allways work out in another ? the things i saw were not found in the books of that period ie; things such as expresion ,activity muscle  movement and elevation etc but going back to your response ,the heart and deep inside the pigeon ? sometimes the eye expression and activity  will give you a little insight as to what is going on inside their heads and any muscle damage, injury or wasting can often be seen in the pigment pattern and colours of the eye ? as for the heart it too is a muscle ,and as you say you can not see it ? for example i dont think eyesign helped Jed Jackson win his national ? so if we close our eyes shut out all the sound around us we can then feel every respiration, heartbeat,,muscle tension and even asses the stesses of the bird during handling , eg; how fast was the heart and respirations when you first held the pigeon ? and how quickly did these inner activities settle back down ? could this pigeon handle long periods at close quarters in a pannier ? we have not even scratched the surface yet aint this what thread like this are all about ?.....ray

[pigeonscout]

Silverwings

 

It was me who talked about hart but what I was referring to was the bravery of the bird?

 

I do not believe in eyesign and the first thing I look at is the eye. It is the same if I look at a dog it just gives me some idea of its health.

[Guest]

Ray, excellent post, the heart beat I have found in the past is a great tool for selecting longdistance pigeons. Bjorn Borg had one of the slowest pulse rates on record as do many top sportsmen. A very simple test is to let the pigeon settle and count how many beats there are over 15 seconds, I have in the past had one bird as low as 7 beats, not an sbsolute indicator but very good, I started looking at this when Dennis Belding did his great Heart Keel and Tail test and as per usual becasue the man wasnot a designer name it didn't get the credit it dseerved. I do like a well covered keel too but that is from 500 miles and over, our bird that was 3rd section in the National from 420 miles this year has a poor keel cover and not the slowest heart beat , even though it was toughish!!

[pigeonscout]

When people talk about 30 years experience are they talking about someone that has for 30 years moved forward in the sport or are they talking about someone that has been doing the same thing for 30 years and got nowhere?

Has he raced pigeons for 30 years or has he raced pigeons one year 30 times?

You can work as a nurse in a hospital for 30 years it will not make you a brain surgeon.

[Guest Silverwings]

albear , thanks and yes i do look into the this,.......     pj1001 sorry for the mix up your post es excelent ,....... pigeonscout in my post ! this bit (any muscle damage injury or wasting can be seen in the pigment ) that bit about a nurse ? in your post is very true , the same goes for some pigeon fanciers ? they can keep them for 30 years and still not be one ? never looked into a dogs eyes? wonder if they have eyesign ? could ask the members the question i suppose ?.......ray

[Guest]

Ray, you must know pigeon scout!!? Perhaps you can shed light on why his glass is always half empty (or better still who he is). Pigeonscout let's accept that you are right and there is absolutely no way the best birds can be selected in any loft in the world by looking in the eyes. And that Ray doesn't know much. Tell me what can you bring to the table to help the likes of deluded people like Ray and me, let's have a positive contribution from you let's have something that contributes to the site and not the slagging off of people that are posting what they believe, you are entitled to disbelieve but what value do you bring?

Jack Barkel has probably forgotten more than you and I put together know, but you can only throw insults at the man, I could understand if you were able to bring some constructive critiscism or was trying to help anyone on this site but you suddenly turn up out of the blue and only post on one topic, why is that I wonder, oops I take it back you've just posted elsewhere congratulations

 

[pigeonscout]

I though my contribution was clear and that was if you pair your birds using eyesign you are going no where in this sport. I will put it another way, the people like yourself that are telling new comers that eyesign will breed them winners are starting them of on the wrong foot. If you are going to help people in this sport then tell them fact things that work be able to back it up with results. It is silly to tell them eyesign works when it has not worked for you or any other eyesign man I have heard of. Now let me ask you a question how far to the top of this sport has your eyesign method took you? Do you not think it is time for you to listen to the men who are winning and open your own mind to the fact that eyesign is getting you no where and that the men who don't use eyesign are the ones at the top.

So for all you new comers reading this, my advice to you is only take advice from the men that are winning.

[pigeonscout]

Albear you say Jack Barkel has probably forgotten more than you and I put together know,

Yes I agree but  has he won more?

[Guest]

Pigeonscout, you keep telling me you can't pair by eyesign,............. why I've told you I don't believe in eye sign??????

In my post I said lets take it I'm talking through my backside............now I'm willing to listen to some contribution from you. Tell me wjhat are the ways that have taken you to the top of the sport and what have you won, be proud to tell because you rely on this as your benchmark

[madmaxlofts]

pigeons fly with there wings not there eyes

if theve got it theve got it regardless of the eyes

but i may be wrong

[Guest Silverwings]

hello again pigeonscuut ,in reply to your comment on the 'hart' and this bravery theory , all these theories have a bearing on the perfomance of our birds right ? so given the fact we produced our birds with such bravery they became hero's to the point that cats and hawks became terrified of them ? i dont think i would like to think my birds were going around threatening hawks ? next thing you know the falcon boys would be threatening us with the R.S.P.B ? we would then have to muzzle our birds and then how would they feed overnight in the panniers ? what would happen next pigeons would be used like guard dogs ? scuricor would step in and price us all out of the auction rooms ? horror films would be made about them for instance pigeon of the baskerville's, 'it came from beneath the nestbowl' any other ideas out there ?

[Saffer]

I think you missing Pigeonscouts point, and its the most valid on the topic.

We only have 1 measurement in this Game, Results.

 

So instead of nit-picking posts, he posted Questions, and as yet I see no valisd answer.

EG: Pigeonfancier X, he says give Garlic everyday. Now Pigeonfancier X swears by this.

We must look for validity in the point, ie. Pigeonfancier X is Club champion, he has been 7 times out of the lat 10 years, and ver out the top 10 in the Fed.

Weight and validity is very great on his point, as his results prove this.

 

Hence an Eye sign man, has a huge bit of power, he can select better than anyone else. So his concentration of Quality is far higher than average Joe.

Hence he should be a crack, champion flyer as result???

I have the same Question, as the power to select, is huge, hence the results should be just as great.

 

Regards

 

Saffer

[Guest]

Pigeonscout come on lets have some info about your methods how you select and your performances, this pleb is interested and will happily take my hat off if you are an ace

[Guest]

Saffer as Pigeonscout has become dumb whilst we are waiting for the other part of your double act, perhaps you would like to concentrate on results to (Your last post makes it obvious how important they are), I bow to your prowess, perhaps you would like to give details of yours and how they are obtained?

 

Come on Pigeonscout don't be bashful, its not like you

[birdman55678]

Thumper I would say this bird will breed you very good racers and should help or continue your success.  Ed

[CHRIS BALSON]

 

I can tell you this no matter how good a breeding cock or hen is or how many winners they may have bred or how many thousands or hundreds of pounds they cost to purchase they still breed off spring that is totaly rubbish, infact i will say more bad ones are bred from them then good ones, they can have the very best of eye sign and be picked out many times by fanciers who know a good from bad eye, i know this from fact, more bad useless youngsters are bred then good ones, i have visited and purchased teams of 20 youngsters from the very best and i can honestly tell you if i can find 2-3 good ones i count myself very fortunate, we all breed more bad ones then we do good, i have purchased many birds with excellent eye sign, that have failed to produce or race, many winners,aces and champions are just sport pigeons, they are good at racing nothing else many are bred and sold from them but also fail, sport pigeons 100%, let the basket be your judge, there will always be exceptions, but facts are facts results give you the proof.

 

Chris

[pigeonscout]

Silverwings

After reading your post I think you have lost the plot. could someone else explain to Silverwings what I mean by hart.

[pigeonscout]

Albear

What sort of results would you like In the last 8 years I have won 90 + straight first no doubles. Racing a maximum of 12 old birds and 35 young birds. club fancier of the year 5 times. fed fancier of the year 3 time.

Best result to date is the first 7 in the open 10,000 + birds.

Now that I have said that I also want to say I do not class myself as a top fancier there are a lot of fanciers race better than me. Im still learning but im learning from winning fanciers.

[pigeonscout]

Albear You say

Pigeonscout come on lets have some info about your methods how you select and your performances, this pleb is interested and will happily take my hat off if you are an ace.

 

You want to know how I select? your the one that was telling everyone you could go into anyone's loft and pick their best breeding and winning birds. Why would an expert like yourself be interested in how a narrow minded person like me selected his birds?

One thing you can be sure of is I must be doing something right.

No one knows what will breed winners until it has done so and even then it is not 100%. that it will do it again.

All we can do is try to find the birds that breed them and you can only do that by racing their offspring and not by looking into its eye. A Wise man once told me that if you find just two pairs that will breed you winners you are a very lucky man.

[Guest Silverwings]

pigeonscart ,you all h'E'art not many poeple say such kind words about me "lost the plot" is so much nicer than the usual descriptions i get ? someone once refered to me as a "two-hat" ? i dont even have one hat ? i think loosing ones plot allows me to retain my sense of humor in these circumstances .....ray