Guest Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Chris, your opinion, is classic head in the sand stuff, I have said quite clearly I don't believe in eye sign. But let me come to your loft and take your best by judging on the eye, why are you so arrogant as to think because you can't comprehend something it ain't possible? The trouble is that if it suits then accept if it don't then rubbish it. The older I get the more I realise the less I know, but my advise would be simple if you think it is rubbish, don't tinker with it because the likes of Chris will have and when he found he could not make head or tail of the eye he tells everyone else it ain't possible it don't work 'I know cause I've checked it' so it can't be right. If you are interested forget the stuff you've read on eye sign, look at the eyes of your birds yourself and start recording the details and over time you will start to see which are breeding and which aren't. But forget colourand mountains and ridges just wash it away start with a clean sheet and go from there. If you are a successful fancier you rely on the couple of pair that have kept you at the top for 10/15 years but then you dissapear cause you can't recreate or you buy some more stuff in the hope you can reproduce. Or if you are a super fancier you will reproduce and continue to win and how many of those are there?? Very few, I can only think of Messrs Kirkland & Tasker in this country but I've no doubt there are more. Learn for yourself, don't let others tell you what to ignore and what not to.........but listen to what people tell you and listen clearly to the FACTS not the rhetoric. I've spent nearly 30 years trying to crack the eye and it took me over 20 before I finally did and I take no notice of 'conventional' eye sign teaching, I did it becauseI saw a man do something quite incredible (and Chris I had seen the so called experts and like you thought they ain't right they aren't selecting the right birds), I had total faith and belief that the man was genuine and proved in front of my eyes and hundreds of others that he could do it. And I now write in total confidence and satisfaction when I say, I to can do it!! And I suppose I'm agreeing with you two out of millions of people confirms that 'eye sign' experts can't pick the best!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saffer Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Chris Results mate, you cannot argue with that. Top boys are trying to improve stock, improve enviroment, and method. Much like you do. For the rest, chase a theoery, chase the latest Vitamin, or winner pill. Regards Saffer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonscout Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 I can go to any loft in the world and I will pick the best breeders what a stupid statment to make. All these eye sign experts should be the best racers in the world if they can do what they say they can but their not? The facts are you can only find winning birds by racing them and you can only find birds that breed winners by racing their offspring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 PigeonScout, that's fine by me, I'll be stupid but let me come to your loft and pick 4 pigeons by the eye and if they are your best I keep them...........that is if you have any that are any good/??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdman55678 Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 I can go to any loft in the world and I will pick the best breeders what a stupid statment to make. All these eye sign experts should be the best racers in the world if they can do what they say they can but their not? The facts are you can only find winning birds by racing them and you can only find birds that breed winners by racing their offspring. Wow, very tough stance for your first post. I guess welcome and go ahead and let er fling. The actual facts are that many can do what you say can't be done, in most cases you do not even have to look into the eye to tell the top birds. Hopefully your second post will possibly have a little less tension in it. Thank you for reading this.. Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saffer Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Birdman You mention a touch, that some top fanciers have. Ludo Claesens, is known for this touch. But at the end of the day, if asked, Ludo says he is very lucky, and yes he is more lucky than most. He is possibly in the Top 5 in Europe at his distance. But he will never say something like, I can Pick only Good ones. I only attribute this gift to someone that can actually race pigeons, and has the track record to prove it. Only exception:Piet DeWreedt, we all still benefiting from his selections today. Pigeonscout: He puts forward the most sure method, one unlike Eyesign has stood fanciers in good stead for years. Its also foolproof. Less BS is always good. All The Best Saffer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Saffer we all thrive on BS that's why you are on here. Claesens is a bit special, I'd love to know why. By the way do you know him persoanlly to be able to say what he does and does not say?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonscout Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 It is a fact that not all the birds form good breeding pairs go on to be winners so if it has anything to do with eye sign of the parents why do they produce birds that don't win? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Good question Pigeon Scout I'll pass, would you like to provide the answer? By the way do you have any other identity on here?? Or is this your sole identity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mO Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Gee Wiz guys lighten up Merry Xmas yours in sport mO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonscout Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 The answer is Genetics. Breed from a family of eyesign pigeons and you will get eyesign pigeons. Breed form a family of soft feathered pigeons and you will get soft feathered pigeons. Breed form a family of fast pigeons and you will get fast pigeons. If you want to win eyesign shows breed from eyesign birds, me I like to win races. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIGEON_MAN Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 me I like to win races. So does everyone else pigeonscout,but you,ve got to breed off pigeons that are capable of breeding winners and this is where eyesign comes into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonscout Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 If you can look into a pigeons eye and tell if it is going to breed winners why are you not breeding winners? If a man was able to look into a pigeons eye and tell it was going to breed winners he would have a loft full of winners do you? Do you know of such a man? I will ask the question again why do good eyesign birds breed birds that do not win. Take a look at all the top birds that ever lived and ask yourself why did the parents of these top birds not breed 20 or 30 birds just like them? Genetics is what makes some birds better than others not the parents eyesign. If the parents eyesign dictated the quality of their offspring then all their offspring would be the same. No two birds can produce the same bird twice no matter how many young they have. If there is something in the eye of a pigeon that tells you it breeds winners then all its young would be winners. You tell me I need eyesign birds to breed winners so what do I need to breed eyesign birds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonscout Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 For any new comer to the sport search online for the top fanciers in the world lots of them have web sites. Send them an email and ask do they pair their birds according to eyesign or performance. If you want to learn about racing pigeons take advice from the men who are winning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIGEON_MAN Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 I dont class myself a eyesign expect but i will try and answear your questions the best i can,I am breeding winners,all the pigeons i have chosen what i would call as a breeders eye have bred me winners,that is not a lie,i might have a loft full of winners i might not you wouldn,t know that anyway,Who says good eye sign birds breed birds that do not win,have you had a REAL eyesign expect pair two birds together for you that have not produced winners,there are many things that makes a bird a winner a good eye is only one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Pigeon Scout you are confused, you are firstly calling me stupid and secondly telling me eye sign is rubbish. Please read the thread again and perhaps you'll see some sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangster Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 im finding this debate very interesting,this is what ita about good points of view without any personal attacks ,as i dont know about eye sign ill not give an opinion but keep an open mind on the subject..........ive met claesons he may be a top flyer but i found him an arrogant xxxx money oriented Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonscout Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 You ask me who says good eyesign birds do not breed all winners I do, name me one pair of birds anywhere in the world that have breed all winners? Have I had a real expert eyesign man pair my birds no, there is no such person. I have a pair of birds in the loft that have produced 15 first prize winners and another pair that has produced 21 first prize winners. I took the cock from pair number one and put it to the hen of pair number two and the cock of number 2 and put it to the hen of number 1 and they produced no winners. One bird from each pair must have had good eyesign to have produced so many winners so why did they not produced winners when their partners where changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonscout Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 I did not call you stupid what I said was the statement you made was stupid when you said you can go to any loft in the world and you will pick the best breeders. I never said eyesign was rubbish but who ever did was right on the money. Name me five of today's top pigeon familles that where built on eyesign. Why is it that the worlds top men laugh at you when you ask about eyesign? Why is it that the eyesign experts don't have the fastest birds? Why do they only talk about eyesign and not about their results? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIGEON_MAN Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 I have a pair of birds in the loft that have produced 15 first prize winners and another pair that has produced 21 first prize winners. I took the cock from pair number one and put it to the hen of pair number two and the cock of number 2 and put it to the hen of number 1 and they produced no winners. One bird from each pair must have had good eyesign to have produced so many winners so why did they not produced winners when their partners where changed. I know you will probable say that it,s easy for me to say this, now that you have told me the answear but probable 9 times out of 10 this is exacly what i would have said would happen,the pairs were obviously suited to one another but once they were split they wern,t,how many times have you heard a fancier say oh this pigeon bred loads of winners for it,s last owner but asn,t bred a thing for me,no because they should of had it,s mate as well that bred all the winners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saffer Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Albear Know him quite well, I follow all he has to say. He is a true master and I feel he can show allot as he has the track record, but the gift he has, I cannot explain. Its a intial feeling. He once saw a basket at the butcher, pigeons to be eaten. He saw one took it home, and it was one of his foundation pigeons. He takes a pigeon, and he says after the intial visual look, its instant when in his hands. But he can intially see it from 10 meters away. I cannot tell you what he sees, or what he has, he cannot explain it either. A gift. Pigeonscout: You exactly correct 100% correct, you get what you breed for. The higher your performance criteria, the better your selection, the better your results. Pigeons are not certain, and not %. A pair can breed all winners in a nest(Eyes must be right :) Then the next 2 years give nothing, (Eyes must be wrong 8)) Nothing is right, and nothing is wrong in this game. Good ones can become bad ones. Regards Saffer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonscout Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 You say the pairs were obviously suited to one another but once they were split they where not. I know that and I found that out by racing their offspring the only way to know if a pair will breed winners. When you say not suited you are saying that I was right and in comes down to Genetics because according to the eyesign experts if a bird has a breeding eye it has an eye that will breed winners (no matter what it is paired to) if it matters what it is paired to then it is Genetics. Why did the eyesign not come into play when the pairs where switched? Don't try and tell me that it is only a breeding eye if you can find a mate that has and eye that suites it. That would mean it is only a breeding eye if you find an eye to pair it to and if you don't it is not a breeding eye. Why don't you study the champion fanciers? you will find not one of them got to the top breeding on eyesign. The thing that annoys me is that there are new comers to the sport reading about eyesign and so called eyesign experts telling them they can pick breeders of winners just by looking into their eyes. I wish it was that easy, For you so called eyesign experts prove to me you can do it show me you are a top flyer in you country. Not one eyesign expert has ever impressed me with his race results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 It is a fact that not all the birds form good breeding pairs go on to be winners so if it has anything to do with eye sign of the parents why do they produce birds that don't win? Pigeonscout are you telling me that it is only in lofts that fanciers practising eye sign (not that I believe in eye sign, you seem to have missed this point that's why I suggested you were lacking in sense) have this problem, non eye sign guys like your self do not have this problem??? Let me answer your question in principle, which I hope you will listen to and not come back with pure insult. An old Welsh fancier called Will Trecatty a miner, one of those characters that make the community tried to answer this question for me 35 years ago when I became Secretary of a new pigeon club 'because I had gone to school' even though the only pigeons I knew of were Trafalgar Sq. I was trying tio get to grips with this wierd sport of racing pigeons. He said if you are going to a wedding, you want to wear a suit that looks good you don't want to let yourself down or the bride and groom........but many do! They go to their wardrobe and they find a beautiful jacket well cut fits well and then they find a trousers that is immaculate, but when you put them on they calsh in every way cut, colour you look a right tw*t. It's the right match you need, it is possible to match a trousers and jacket together but you have to have the eye for it (no pun intended). Its the same with pigeons it doesn't matter what method you use if you can't match them you won't get what you want. I hope that simply analogy is a decent answer for you. By the way I agree 100% on genetics and that's what I look for in the eyes is the genetic make up of the bird, the eye shows me the genetic characteristics that I need. Now Pigeon Scout your not up for BS like Saffer , I think? So lets get down to the money, you obviously have some top breeders, you reckon I can't do it, well let's prove it. I come to your loft and I pick 4 birds if they are your top breeders I keep them, if not you can come on here and tell everyone what a w++ker I am, its time to walk the walk mate, I'm happy to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonscout Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 I have ask the eyesign experts to show me their results, If you can go to any loft and pick the birds that will breed winners name me just ten winners you have produced in the last two years. If you read what I said before I have good breeders but they are only good breeders when paired to the right mate. They are not good breeders when paired to the wrong mate so explain to me why the breeding eye does not breed winners when paired to the wrong mate. When you say, you look for in the eyes is the genetic make up of the bird, the eye shows you the genetic characteristics that you need. Did you know you can breed two birds from two different genetic back grounds and produced winners. I would like to know what you think you can see in a birds eye that will tell you a birds genetic back ground. Can you tell it was its GG sire that was responsible for a bird winning and not its G dam from a different genetic back ground if you have not seen their eyes. As far as coming to my loft and pick out my 4 best breeders and keep them if you get it right. I will agree if you agree to put down £4000 if you get it wrong. I will make it easy for you by only having 8 birds for you to pick from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonscout Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 I have ask the eyesign experts to show me their results, If you can go to any loft and pick the birds that will breed winners name me just ten winners you have produced in the last two years. If you read what I said before I have good breeders but they are only good breeders when paired to the right mate. They are not good breeders when paired to the wrong mate so explain to me why the breeding eye does not breed winners when paired to the wrong mate. When you say, you look for in the eyes is the genetic make up of the bird, the eye shows you the genetic characteristics that you need. Did you know you can breed two birds from two different genetic back grounds and produced winners. I would like to know what you think you can see in a birds eye that will tell you a birds genetic back ground. Can you tell it was its GG sire that was responsible for a bird winning and not its G dam from a different genetic back ground if you have not seen their eyes. As far as coming to my loft and pick out my 4 best breeders and keep them if you get it right. I will agree if you agree to put down £4000 if you get it wrong. I will make it easy for you by only having 8 birds for you to pick from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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