Wiley Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 very good and informative im learning all the time of this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond dave Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Ed. Many thanks mate. I hope this doesn't become a challenge, but then I would still like to hear other interpretations. Most people say that the eyesign theory is a "tool" and as everyone knows you need the best tools to do a proper job, so I am sure there must be some benefit, even to the most sceptical. I still dont get the mountains and Valleys bit - is this part of the "grainy" effect of the iris that I should be looking for? Is this 5th breeding circle visible to the naked eye? Youve also intrigued me even more now by talking about horizontal and vertical lines - are these only visible with an eye glass? Many thanks in advance D.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdman55678 Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Daimond Dave. It won't become a challenge as I will not accept the bait, I always just say what I do and believe and them that don't believe or accept what I say then so be it.. Anyway getting back to your questions I will be as basic as I know how. The eye one of two colors either white or yellow (this is the base color beneith the iris) I know there are different shades of white or yellow but please bare with me on this. Pretend that you are looking at the eye without any thing in it but one of the two base colors. What you see on top of this base color is what is refered to as the mountains and valleys. In all seriousness what they are talking about is the Iris and not mountains or valleys. When looking at the eye the Iris jumps right out at you I believe the number 7 eye above shows it best, the white color is the base and the red to darkish brown is the Iris, if you look at this iris the lighter colors of red would be the mountains and the darker shades of brown are the valleys especially where there is some whitish color showing through. To see most vertical and horizontal lines a loop is almost always needed but not 100 percent of the time. Hope this helps some, I can try to go into more detail if you like. Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdman55678 Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Also I agree that the more interpertations then the better. I am updating my breeding records on the PC so will check back time to time. thanks. Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond dave Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Ed, Thankyou for that and the details of Jacks site. thats exactly what I need more as a reference than anything else. I need to read things over seversal times to be able to take it in and with that I can take it all in. You wont believe it, but I cant wait to go through my birds now and see if any come up to scratch!! Thanks again. D.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdman55678 Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Dave depending on how sucessfull you have been (of course the more sucessfull the better ;D) it is going to amaze you at what you see. Try checking your birds that have bred winners for you against the birds that are just also rans. If you do this then you also will be a newfound believer and the reading will have just commensed. Thanks and good luck. Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 13, 2006 Report Share Posted December 13, 2006 Mr Staff Van Reet...........Who is the mystery man, is he a legend or maybe wears the baggie cap or perhaps a scotish mystic, can you shed light on this person who has wizard of Oz birds? I'd like to know who this con man is. Or perhaps he would like to come clean and explain why he was so decietful. Was it cause he could n't believe that I could be 99% accurate and then spot Stu taking the pee!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdman55678 Posted December 13, 2006 Report Share Posted December 13, 2006 Albear, Staffy was a legend but unfortunately only in his own mind.. LOL. Ed ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 16, 2006 Report Share Posted December 16, 2006 Ed and so are his cronies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdman55678 Posted December 18, 2006 Report Share Posted December 18, 2006 Bet his so called Cronies have also won every race they been in.. LOL. Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 18, 2006 Report Share Posted December 18, 2006 or Biged up ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 This thread should have everyone thinking how the chuff did Albear get 99% accurate how could anyone in the world do that!!?? But no because of the modern day culture we live in everyone (and I suppose I'm no different) will doubt how genuine I am. Stuart for example has said he is a sceptic, I ain't got no trouble with that..........but then there is a deliberate deceitful attempt to try and show that I am a con man by Mr Staf Van Reet. Lrt's look at the facts 1 a guy posts some pics of eyes and asks for evaluation. 2 I don't know this guy from Adam and I still ain't got a clue who he is 3 I from pics which I admit can be very hard to judge (you really do need to see the 'naked eye') am 99% accurate according to the poster. 4 Stuart Wicox a self confessed very good selector of pigeons places on the thread the eye of a 'sprinter' and asks for my evaluation, he's taking the p**s as I point out and tell him what a terrific distance pigeon this is.........and shock horror I'm right again!!?? 5 Jack Barkel the eye sign expert on the site posts an holier than thou message about breeding from such pigeons, they should never be bred from!!! He also goes on to explain that you can sex using the eye ceres. I try to clarify with Jack that I am not sexing by the ceres but by the eye and ask Jack to confirm that he can now sex by the eyes because on his video he said it is not possible. I never asked Jack to post on my evaluation so I don't think it unfair to ask the question. Jack fails to answer and withdraws from the thread. Let me add that I express the utmost respect for Jack, why?? Because I believe he is a genuine guy. But I also know from his withdrawal that Carney and I are still the only ones in the world that know the secret of the eye, a secret I have never seen in print. 6 Let me give you one other fact. In 1982 I first got hold of Dorothy Hall's book Iridology. The book that Jack Barkel advises people to get hold of. The book that Jack could not get hold of until 2002 (or 2003?) until I sent a copy to Jack in South Africa as a result of which Jack now refers to himself as a Pigeon Iridoligist. Can I say the book is a help but it will never reveal the secret of the eye. Can anyone of you doubters tell me how I can be a con man, except of course there will always be those that will deny, they can do nothing else it is their nature. I can go to any loft in the world and I will pick the best breeders (and racers) Carney is still King but I am the Prince in waiting he has years of experience and his father's ability on his side, look at the eyes I picked to breed , they are not the eyes an 'eye sign' man would pick but ransom has confirmed I am spot on. One final question Stuart as a man of Bath, the home when I played rugby a few generations before you, of the worst rugby refs in the land, when Barnsy was God, are you Mr Staf Van reet or are some acquantences of yours? Or Do you know who he is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wince24 Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 hey guys, how about a pigeon who has eyes that has different color from one another, how can you tell its eye sign, which eye will i evaluate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdman55678 Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 hey guys, how about a pigeon who has eyes that has different color from one another, how can you tell its eye sign, which eye will i evaluate? Evaluate both eyes and make you decisions on the worst one of the pair. But beware as it seems you may be new with eyesign, make no hasty decisions on your evaluation. Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdman55678 Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 This thread should have everyone thinking how the chuff did Albear get 99% accurate how could anyone in the world do that!!?? I will not post the whole quote but would like to respond somewhat to your post. I for one did not discuss on this forum you ability to grade an eye. I also consider myself to know a wee bit about the eyes and like you I respect Jack a great deal and would under no consideration speak ill of the man. The eyes you judged as I stated right after they were posted were not to my liking. There was only one of them and I believe it was the fourth one that showed me any breeding ability. Its my thoughts that you do not need to look at the eye to see if its a sprinter or distance bird, not only will the parents tell you this but the overall bird will do the same. Eyesign (in my opinion anyway) should only be used for breeders, to many people nowadays seems to think its a giant shortcut and they then take some idiots evaluation of their birds and end up killing many that should have stayed in the lofts. Please understand I am not being critical of you in any way but I do not believe you or anyone else can acurately grade eyes from a photo, it a guessing game with a picture no matter what the quality, its impossible to see the the pupil contract which to my way of thinking is very important. It seems you have studyed with some of the best and I wish more would do that. Anyway I do not wish to start an argument as these are just my thoughts about eyesign and not meant to be disrespectful to you or anyone else in anyway. Good day. Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdman55678 Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 This thread should have everyone thinking how the chuff did Albear get 99% accurate how could anyone in the world do that!!?? I will not post the whole quote but would like to respond somewhat to your post. I for one did not discuss on this forum you ability to grade an eye. I also consider myself to know a wee bit about the eyes and like you I respect Jack a great deal and would under no consideration speak ill of the man. The eyes you judged as I stated right after they were posted were not to my liking. There was only one of them and I believe it was the fourth one that showed me any breeding ability. Its my thoughts that you do not need to look at the eye to see if its a sprinter or distance bird, not only will the parents tell you this but the overall bird will do the same. Eyesign (in my opinion anyway) should only be used for breeders, to many people nowadays seems to think its a giant shortcut and they then take some idiots evaluation of their birds and end up killing many that should have stayed in the lofts. Please understand I am not being critical of you in any way but I do not believe you or anyone else can acurately grade eyes from a photo, it a guessing game with a picture no matter what the quality, its impossible to see the the pupil contract which to my way of thinking is very important. It seems you have studyed with some of the best and I wish more would do that. Anyway I do not wish to start an argument as these are just my thoughts about eyesign and not meant to be disrespectful to you or anyone else in anyway. Good day. Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 Ed, thanks for your comments, I take no offence from them and respect your opinion. I can but asssure you the grading was 100% genuine, could have been pure luck though!? I do not respect those that are decietful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdman55678 Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 Ed, thanks for your comments, I take no offence from them and respect your opinion. I can but asssure you the grading was 100% genuine, could have been pure luck though!? I do not respect those that are decietful Albear, there is no doubt in my mind that your grading was genuine, I did not mean to imply otherwise. All I was saying and I believe you will agree is that it is very tough to give a genuine assessment from a picture. I am positive that if told you would recieve $1000 for a correct assessment or have to pay $1000 for an incorrect one then you would definately want to have the bird in hand, or so I believe anyway. I also don't think you assessment was pure luck, its plain to see you do have skill. Anyway thanks for the reply. As always. Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Ed, you are of course right I would be more circumspect if it was to cost me money by judging by an eye photo, i can but say it would always depend on the quality of the photo the one submitted by Stuart was not good enough for me to evaluate the breeding capabilities of that bird, so in that instance I would not have wagered however the ones from Ransom I would have had no problem in waging 'cause I could see the whole eye. You see one of the things I noticed with Bill Carney the twice he came to look at my birds was his ability to pick them off the perch by looking at the eye (and just to tie up with Jack on this I do believe that studying the cere will lead you to pick the best birds off the perch by using the cere) however I knew Carney was doing it by the eye and that is something I have been trying to dvelop and where as I can't see the detail in the eye that I need to in the pictures submitted by Ransom I have now learnt how to pick in many instances on appearance, a skill I am trying to develop. Ed I do not disagree that to be solid you need to see the 'naked' eye, I can now in many instances evaluate purely on appearance and generally be pretty spot on. I see you refer to the dilation of the pupil and I accept that if the bird's eye does not dilate it ain't going to be much good, you can more often than not tell that by appearance without having to see the eye in the 'flesh'. Ed Carney is absolutely fantastic, I was honoured and priveliged to have him at my lofts. Many men decry him because he was not the most articulate person and they correlated this to intelligence, such corelation highlights their lack of intelligence and not Bill's and Bill was/is very forthright on his ability and this does not go down well with 'experts' whose nose he is putting out of joint. Many say 'when did he win a National?, he wasn't a successful fancier'..........this is rubbish he was a very very good fancier, Les Parkinson of Elimar pgeon services can confirm this, it was his articles on Carney back in the late 70's that fired my mind to question his ability. I had seen several of the top experts come down to the Tredgar eye sign show and give talks but new just by their judging that they weren't right cause they couldn't pick the best birds. Then Carney came in 81/82 and he picked 1st Welsh national Lerwick out of some 250 birds from all over South Wales as the best eye bird in the show, not only that he gave a commentary on stage of every bird in the show. My mates and I took birds and he was spot on and he'd never seen our birds or met us. I was sold. And I have spent the last 25 years trying to crack the secret to the detrement of everything else, Bill has never helped me but if it was not for him I would never have spent this time chasing this goal, which I have finally achieved!! Finally let me say i understand doubting Thomas', I was one when I went to the Tredegar show, I thought Carney was going to be just like the others......thank goodness he wasn't. He is my pigeon hero and I cherish the fact that he came to my loft twice after he had had a very bad car crash and stopped going around lofts carrying out evaluations. To all those who doubt Carney, don't he is not a con man he is fantastic, the only man in the world who knows the secret of the eye (and of course me too know!!) As to Jack I think he is a great pigeon man and has far more knowledge than I have on pigeons per se, a man of integrity who I have respect for, my comments in my earlier post were not a personal attack on him, but I needed to clarify the position because where as I have similar beliefs on the 'death' of long distance racing, the birds that were being evaluated are a family of birds that will continue to breed future winners at sprint/middle distance and are not currently in decline and I repeat when it comes to the eye my ability and knowledge is only surpassed by Bill Carney. I know that sounds immensly arrogant and I'm sorry if it appears that way but it is true! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Hello Albear, I think I must set the record straight, I referred to myself as a Pigeon Iridologist, long before I heard of you or Dorothy Ward, and there is documented proof of this, so your statement that as a result of you sending me that book I now refer to myself by that title is only wishful thinking on your part. It is not fact and if you are still a gentleman you will withdraw that statement. Albear I do not know how good you are, or how others regard you as the eye sign expert second only to Bill Carney. For he like myself and some others earned his reputation by deeds not words. It were better in my opinion that you do not talk about having the secret to the eye sign, for in my opinion there is no secret, just plain experience and facts. As soon as the so called experts talk about their secrets, I know they are not experts but people only desperately trying to get gain some recognition. I withdrew from the thread because you have changed and have adopted the attitude that only you together with Bill knows everything and because of this attitude you attack every doubting Thomas as if they were a threat to you. Because of that same attitude you seem to have adopted as you already well know I have withdrawn my support on several lists. This is why I withdrew on the thread of this list, so that no holier than thou messages from me will ever be a threat to you in the future. Such comments are not the words of a well balanced and controlled debater, but of someone ready to brow beat anyone who dares to give a different view. Continue to tell Pigeon Basics how good you are to the detriment of others, continue to criticise everyone who keeps your thread going, and you will find they will all let you run out of steam in your frantic efforts to convince them how good and better you are than anyone else other than Bill Carney. I do not care what your opinion is of yourself and clearly state I have never based my eye sign experience on Dorothy Hall although I have noted some relationship between eye sign and her writings. Albear I will not contribute on this site anymore while they have an expert as perfect as you, maybe the world will recognise you thrashing around for recognition. I myself would like to see some recorded feats of yours throughout the world, for different areas need to be looked at in a different light, and if you do not know these variable differences you will fail. These are not secrets, but common knowledge to those who have been put to the test in various parts of the world. I was requested to join Pigeon Basics because there was no authority on the list with eye sign experience, it seems that those who requested my presence were wrong, they had the second best eye sign expert in the world?????? Eye sign can only be used as a tool when one understands the genetic drift as portrayed in the eye of a pigeon, this was the secret,and thanks to biologists, scientists, geneticists, it is no secret anymore. This is what iridology taught me long before I read the D Hall book. I am sadly disappointed with your new found attitude, temperament or efforts to prove who or what you are, and do not wish to involve myself any further, I will not compete to prove where I stand on this in the eyes of the world, in comparison to yourself, I Don't Need To!!!!! Sadly this will be my last comment on anything eye sign related while this kind of forceful attitude remains. Regards Jack Barkel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Jack, if you say you were an 'iridoligist' prior to getting the book, I have no problem with that. As to knowing about the book yes of course you knew about it but as you told me you had never been able to get hold of it. And you will remember I sent you a copy paid for by myself & p&p, out of good will and nothing else. But as a gentleman I am happy to withdraw I would never accuse you of false statements As to the secret yes there is absolutely one and from your posts on the ransom eyes I know that you do not know it, because you can not comprehend it, it does not mean there is not one, there is. In terms of being an expert I do not advertise and visit lofts or make videos and books and earn a healthy living from it. I am not commercial in anyway, you are,it is not in your interest to accept that there are things about the eye you do not know. As to your assertion the eye is only part of the whole scenario, yes I can comprehend your reasons for saying that but anyone who has seen me judge a pigeon will tell you I examine nothing but the eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ben Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Hi Alan,Why beat yourself up?why give a toss what other fanciers think,half `em on here can`t spell PAU,let alone fly it,and as for Mr Barkel,with a bit of pressing on this forum a while back,he actually stated he leart a lot from none other than S W E Bishop...i bet your already pissing yourself laughing. You and your family have a good Christmas.Alan....From the heart... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Barkel Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Hello Ben, Your remarks about me were uncalled for and not befitting a person who can claim any respect to say the least. I visited SWE Bishop 52 years ago at the age of 18 years of age. Where would you have sought advice to start at that time in history? I have however progressed since then in eye evaluation and intelligence.Gaining recognition world wide if you care to check further than this forum. I have nothing against Alan, in fact we corresponded regularly at one time. I would suggest that remarks like yours are what is giving this list a very bad name at the moment. I came on this list by invitation to try and impart my knowledge on pigeons to others. Not to be blagarded by people who cannot control their behaviorable pattern. Please try and moderate your behaviour, others like myself may not regard your comments as either wise or funny at all. Jack Barkel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdman55678 Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Hi Alan,Why beat yourself up?why give a toss what other fanciers think,half `em on here can`t spell PAU,let alone fly it,and as for Mr Barkel,with a bit of pressing on this forum a while back,he actually stated he leart a lot from none other than S W E Bishop...i bet your already pissing yourself laughing. You and your family have a good Christmas.Alan....From the heart... Ben, I agree with Jack your email was totally uncalled for, once you have given as much to the sport as Jack has then you will be intitled to speak from the same level as he. Good Day. Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHRIS BALSON Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 IF ONLY IT WERE SO EASY WE WOULD ALL HAVE ONLY LOFTS WITH CHAMPIONS IN THEM AND ALL THE EYE SIGN MEN WOULD BE THE TOP FLYERS WIN ALL THE NATIONALS,CLASSICS, BBC'S AND OPEN RACES THERE WOULD BE NOTHING FOR THOSE WHO KNEW NOTHING ABOUT EYE SIGN, WELL AS IT IS THE EXPERT EYE SIGN MEN ARE NOT THE CHAMPIONS OR KINGS OF THE BIG RACES, LET THEM STUDY THE EYES THATS THEIR CHOICE AND THEY ARE WELCOME TO THEIR OPINIONS, BUT I WILL TELL YOU THIS AND ITS 100% A TRUE BASED FACT NOT A GUESSING GAME OR AN ASSUMPTION, THERE IS NO MAN ALIVE NOR IS THERE ONE THAT HAS PASSED AWAY THAT CAN TELL YOU WHAT A PIGEON WILL WIN OR HOW MANY WINNERS IT WILL BREED JUST BY ITS EYE OR BY HANDLING ALONE, NO WAY ON THIS EARTH AND IF YOUR ONE OF THE GUYS WHO BELIEVE THAT THE EYE EXPERTS ARE ABLE TO DO SO MY ADVICE TO YOU IS WAKE UP AND WAKE UP QUICKLY BEFORE YOU FALL FURTHER DOWN THE LIST FOLLOWING FALSE CLAIMS, THE BEST FANCIERS ARE ALWAYS ON THE TOP OR NEAR THE TOP OF ANY RESULT YOU CAN SEE THIS BY THE RESULTS PUBLISHED WEEKLY, LET THE BASKET BE YOUR JUDGE WASTE NO TIME ON FALSE CLAIMS, HOW MANY OF TODAYS EYE SIGN EXPERTS ARE NATIONAL WINNERS IN THE LAST 5 YRS MAY MAKE IT EASIER, PURE BULL AND MORE BULL WAKEY WAKEY CHRIS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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