Roland

Wasn't CHAMPION TOEY a Busscheart in the early 80's ... must look at the site.

Populat in Austria and likes. Are a few here. Tammy's disc surely must work a treat.

Very true Blackjack, but the Glass has no reference what or who it cuts. They soon shy away. Rats are attracted by hegdehogs of course which they will kill and eat. Ratty snarls and the hedgehog will roll up into it's ball for protection. But Ratty snarls more and gnaws away at the pines till a round hole down to the skin. It then bits through and turns hedgy over, and kills it. All the time poor Hedgy sqills like a good un - which is very upsetting to hear.

his is also interesting I feel http://orientalroller.tripod.com/ Hope you like

I thought this, taken from the Alberta Clasic' may be of an interest to some. Comments: Birmingham Roller Guardians by Paul Sisk Written for Circus Lofts' website: http://circuslofts.com When I was getting back into rollers I did a lot of research. Having been wiped out by hawks twice in the last fifteen years. I read up on Catalonian Tumblers and Flying Oriental Rollers and after talking to some people and reading a lot of articles I decided to go with the Flying Oriental Rollers because they were originally bred to avoid desert falcons and had a more varied performance than a Catalonian. I have since also learned that performing Catalonians are very rare in the U.S. I picked up a few birds but was unable to come across any that I really liked. An article I read had said that Dale Husband's family of birds were possibly the only true performing Oriental Rollers left in the United States so the quest started to obtain this family. Whether it was fate, destiny, or pure dumb luck I just happened to find the National Performing Roller Association and seen an advertisement by Alan Bliven of Circus Lofts that his friend Dennis Radi had a whole group for sale. I immediately called Dennis and secured the birds. I got six pairs of breeders and an eleven bird kit already trained. Meanwhile I had also picked up a twenty bird kit of Pensom Birmingham Rollers that a breeder was getting out because of hawks. After getting the birds used to the kit box they were put to the air. I flew them for months with no predator problems at all. I was in pigeon heaven. I then acquired a kit of Galati Rollers and started flying them and then one day it happened. I guess I was in a major migration route. I had two kits up that day, one kit of Birmingham's and one kit of Galatis. They flew quite well together and some of the Galatis were just coming into the roll. They made a pass around and over the timber and four birds were missing. They made another pass and the kit came out busted up and going in every direction. Right then I knew I was having a major air raid. I called in the birds but did not get them all in until dark. My four best Galatis and one very promising young almond Birmingham were missing. Flying on an every other day schedule, no birds were flown the next day. The next day I looked around carefully and saw no sign of any hawks so I put them up again. Again they made a pass over the timber and the kit was all broken up and going everywhere. Neither time I never saw a hawk but when they landed I was missing three birds, one Birmingham and two Galatis. I then went into lock down until deciding how to carry on. I had yet to test the Flying Oriental Rollers against hawks but decided now was the time. I took them out of the stationary kit box and put them in the portable. I put a kit of young Birminghams in the other side of the portable. I took them to the farm and proceeded to release the Flying Oriental Rollers with two hawks visible in the distance. The kit went up and the hawks immediately came in for a visit. The time was now to find out the truth first hand. It was a couple of sharp shins and they made a pass at the kit but the Flying Oriental Rollers darted and dived almost to the ground and evaded the hawks. The hawks made another pass with the same outcome. I was quite pleased. They had performed just as advertised. I started flying the Flying Oriental Rollers every day and had a couple of half hearted attempts until the hawks finally just sit and watched. This pair was evidently migrating because after a week or so of going hungry they moved on. I finally flew the Birmingham kit one day and boom, out of nowhere the predator came in and took one of my whites. The next day I put up the Flying Oriental Rollers first and out came the hawk. It was a large Cooper hen and she was quick. She was hot on the tail of a yearling cinnamon hen. They darted and dived through the trees and I lost site of them both. Neither came back that day. But it is also written that if a hawk does catch one of your mature Flying Oriental Rollers you didn’t need it anyway. The next day the little hen was in the kit box only short half her tail feathers. Now I fly two kits at a time. I always release the Flying Oriental Rollers first to check for hawks and after they trap in I release the second kit of Birmingham’s or Galatis. I have twenty one Flying Oriental Rollers in the kit box so that if I want to fly three or four kits that day I will only release half at a time. The local hawks will not even attempt to catch the birds now, they just sit off in the distance and watch after so many frustrating unsuccessful attempts at catching the Flying Oriental Rollers. Hawks are intelligent birds and they learn where a meal is will be a good place to come back and look again. They also learn not to waste vast amounts of energy on fruitless chases. I think I have found the perfect solution for my predator problems. I will now and forever put up the Flying Oriental Rollers first to train my hawks that they cant catch my pigeons. I also believe there is a plus to having the hawks chase my Flying Oriental Rollers. I feel that since this is what they were bred for that possibly this will enhance performance. I guess time will tell, as I will breed from the air. One word of caution for the first timer with Flying Oriental Rollers. Even though the mature birds are or should be hawk proof the young birds are venerable. It is the diving, spinning and spirals that the birds use to evade hawks and until the young develop these traits they can be caught as easily as a Birmingham. Even though I have not lost a bird of any breed since I started this method, when I get an occasional attack it is really quite amusing watching them make their tactical evasion techniques. I was considering getting out of Rollers but now I think I will happily fly them using my Birmingham Roller Guardians. Paul Sisk Notes from Circus Lofts: Not only do these bird perform as Paul testified but they will keep you entertained as well with their rolling, spinning, diving etc. This is a true performing roller breed. If you attempt to try this method yourself, you need to understand that there are two breeds of Oriental Rollers in the U.S. One is is show type simply named "Oriental Roller" and the other is the genuine "Flying Oriental Roller." You will be best served using the Flying Oriental Roller.

Though they are not being re - introduced to Germany. There was a great program on this subject just a few months ago, and it seems that the RSPB has the ones that arrive here transferre out if possible ...

Thought this might be of an interest. It is off the Alberta Classic Pigeon forum. http://www.albertaclassic.net/hawks/hawks.php

I'm not even in a field with a high horse, let alone on one. First of, I wanted Rocky to see the bigger picture, to see the effects it could well have down the line. Quite simply Rocking said that they went by the rules... Well that means that they must have stuck to the procedure! If they did they did This means that he was contacted verbally, then asked to attend a meeting where it would be dealt with. Then possibly written too, registered letter that was signed and acknowledge, or the two (Sec & and say the President) DID hand deliver to him personally, if Rocking wasn’t there, then they would HAVE had to come back – if not, then they didn't follow the procedure and are bang out o order, full stop! Then Rocking can't be reinstated as he was never actually is Banned. If on the other hand, IF they did stick to the procedure then Rocking must have known all along! Personally I hope and am persuaded that he was genuinely shocked and upset, so they couldn't have stuck to procedure… Then Rocking IS wrong to say they stuck to the lawful procedure. Can't be both ways! So that is why I say fight them and get the disfellowship - for that is what it is - sorted, SQUASHED and get on with his birds. Also if the club went through the procedure, (there is a time date set in most clubs when the dues have to be paid) then the club are bang out of order, especially if they let a defaulter fly, as they now claim he was! Also, why we are at it, I don't see any cause whatsoever for Rocking, or anyone else, having a go at me for pointing above out. I never said or implied that Rocking was a fibber... only that if he says they were in orders then HE wasn't and visa – versa, and as such, one or the other isn't telling the truth. So yes hat wants sorting, but for those that had a go at me, you are, and that includes Rocking, you are bang out of order. Taking it realistically, a step further, it means that the CLUB have not only stole his money, but called him an L**rer and worst still, a defaulter! And some have the gall to have a go at me, and not the club! ... mind boggles. But it is 100% certain that in this case ONE side is definitely wrong and selling pork pies. What I. or others think, or want to believe, even feel is irrelevant. But Rocking has to sort them... or he may be suspended for some time. Now where am I out of order! See once I get the keyboard in front of me and I'm off lol.

I have learnt a little more. They cant gnaw through Glass, nor ( no pun intended lol) climb it. If placed, around and under the loft it makes it sucure. I glass sheets place between two sheets of Ply wood, hardboard, chipboard or any wood etc. when building a loft, or reline the sides and floorwith good insulation and gnaw proof glass. But anti freeze is exceptionally effective.

Very rare indeed that a Rat will kill a pigeon. Has been know to knibble the feathers, but... Personally Iw ouldn't involve the council as the less we have to do with them the better in this, and many other regards. A pipe with a bit of peanut butter laced with anti freeze will sort them They love peanut butter and the sweet taste of anti freeze. In a pipe nothing else will be able to get at it. Also they can't resist going into pipes, they seldom if ever go past one. Even with a terier up it back side lol. One must remember that rats and mice team into the house in winter. Every home has one or the other. But they never mix. The above will also get rid of mice.I bait my traps regulary with Mars Bar. I wash the traps regularly too. Some time weeks, months go by with nary a on... then 7 or so in 2/3 days. Means I am well ontop of them.Yes the ole spring trap never fails. Even if only caught by the tail. Hope this helps.

Sorry steve it seems that facts float over your head ... no one has to re - register rings do they! Mind I believe you may well be the blind one leading the blind. Hence History repeating it's slf - Admitted things are a bitter tighter... but with the like of you on a Bsketting bench History would undoubtedly be here to stay. Sorry for your ignorance on thing you know not, nor can understnd, let alone appreciate... struth Roly wept!

When a ruling, that cannot ever be revoked - or within 30 years - becomes obsolete, is put into place that says. 'Every bird clocked by an ET has a penalty of 20 seconds added FOR each bird, and not JUST the first one' and those that just want them for their personal likes and quims (or so they’d have you believe) agree and say 'Yes that is a fair and honest rule' then progress will begin to happen. And remember that the more ‘Trap Shy’ manual birds become the better for them in reality! Before any one disagrees, YES! in REAL term there is at least that on an average. I'd love for this bias commentator that that is far fetched to be timed. Also the simple fact is then added that if they want it, and it is seen to be fairer and they aren't only want it for constant quicker and better trapping, why sure they would agree. Ok they would now... just to get it in, but would soon holler aloud that they were being penalised, and 'IF other wants it they can buy it' crap scenario. Ring WILL / would soon go up ad that is a fact. Once everyone that could afford one has one... why they'd be able to add 20p here and there with no sweat! And as they were interest in what is then BEST for the birds, why they won't have a leg to stand on. But of course the first part will never happen. Why, because they would overwhelmingly be afraid that a Good Manual. Of couse the clock don’t make a bird a winner… but can surely help!

Seems that 'Dead Pigeons' will be winning races again then!

Lice good points... cleans and keeps the quilts in fine fettle, many leave - especially in Belguim - for this purpose. Bad points, well, the handlers moan when basketting, most believe that you aren't looking after your pgeons properly ... some, like doo man says may keep the birds unsetled at night, but have yet to see, outside of the 'Fanciers' what harm they are doing, infact mostly good. We go along with the crowd and just believe lol.

Of course the 'Parents' at the moment are the ones that allow their kids to - or not - the birds... two things are the 'LOFT' taing up room etc. and worried that they will end up cleaning out etc. Know two fliers though that took over from their kids when other things take their interest naturally. Yet that may that they may return later when married etc. and settled down. But if costs are needless, and it is having to compete with the morgage, and kids clothes etc. hen the wife will bann them!

Was a school at Walgrave that the children raced. The birds were use to the noise of the play ground, and the parent etc. use to come and watch the birds home etc. But when that head moved on the new head closed it al down, but for 2 seasons it was well attended etc. Two new members gained, but there was great scope.

So as the procedure allows appeals, I'd apeal ... and personally I do believe that Mick is telling the truth, and wish he sucess and to be able to fly his birds ... So what I'm saying simply is. No need to let them get away with it, and if this is allowed to be done to him... then that means he would be accepting that they are right and he is wrong ... then that could well have reprocussions further down the field .. So let's hope he does sort it, for he can't afford to let it pass .. others - not me as that is irrelevant, but other clubs / members etc. will just say Well he must have been guilty or they could have done it - or - he would have appealed. That is it in a nut shell. end of subject as far as I am concerned because I've said any and everything there is to say on the subject.

Not bothering to indulge any further in this matter. Well after this one. Quite simply1. Why bother - if peeved off - why then just lay over and get whipped like a mangy dog! So if he doesn't take the case up he admits that he IS a defaulter! 2. Next, thing is, that later after he's has left he IS a defaulter, and other clubs may well have to get shot of him! He said they had acted right and by the rules, and by the right procedure. The that in it's self means they HAD TOLD him. At least twice he owed his Dues and they were PAID. They MUST have then sent him 2 LETTERS - possibility a registered letter, or hand delivered by the sec in accompany of the President etc. etc. for them to have acted rightly and fulfilled the procedure. Then that means that the CLUB allowed a defaulter to fly his birds KNOWING that he is a defaulter! AND on and on and so forth. So instead of have a dig... before lambasting me, just step back and think! If he ent guilty he would appeal. The club needs sorting. he won't be flying with any CLUB if he is a defaulter THAT is against RPRA rules.... I'd be blowed if I'd allow that to be the case if I wasn't guilty! Mick says they acted all above board etc. ell then he must be a defaulter. Sorry but that is a simple realisation that most will come to. And I don’t know Mick etc. and certainly have no bones about this one way or the other... except to say that I wish him well, and that it is sorted so he can fly again… RPRA will possibly suspend him till all dues paid – for by applying to their wishes, he will have admitted that he is a defaulter and was fairly treated, hence a suspension will be the order of the day. Other clubs won’t be happy accepting birds from a defaulter and land themselves in trouble … at best of times it is hard enough for any one to stand up and be counted. So basically what I’m say is that if you allow it… then it will be contrived – rightly or wrongly – that you are a defaulter and shouldn’t be flying. That is simple… never mind who it is, the rules are there to be adhered to by one and all… and that is why there is an appeal mechanism is place … to see that any bias, or unjust ruling etc.wil not be the order of the day, or any club can treat any MEMBER willy nilly and get away with it!.

Blood packing is used in most animal sports... but needs careful preperation. Take the blood out ondau, put it in a fridge ... aloow to come back to room tempreture and inject back in .... simple. In the mean time the birds / animal has replaced the blood taken... hence more blood, more red cells etc. There are products like oxgny Zell, Red Cell etc, that supposedly increase the red cells and provides more oxygen ... or use a Oxygen tank and put

http://www.cranswickpetproducts.co.uk/stockists.html there just click on 'Your Local Stockists and bingo your dad's brother is bob.

Most places have a depot that caters... bit heavy but great feed.

How can they have gone through the right channels if you didn't know till the day after and 9 months later... seems to me you just want a sorrowful pat on the back, and not really interested in sorting out your njustice. That's your privledge... just sorry I and ohers bothered to give you any suport... please just go and lie down in peace and give up, and give over. Been me I'd been screaming from the roof tops and every one and any one that I thought could give advice, help in regards this injustice would be seeked for any and every bit of help. Still your progrative. There again, I feel that if they went through the proper proceedures, that means that you were kepted inform, afloat and had every chance to pay for dues, which you obviously didn't then, so yo deserve to be kicked out! ... and to even be allowed to race! Golly in that case the whole club should be hauled over the coals for allowing you to fly, let alone not reporting you for being a defaulter! End of sbject as far as I am concerned.

Yes! and probably love some Tipplers / Tumblers / Rollers etc.

The whole basis of the Law and Justice in this country is Innocent until proved guilty. No Quango / or back street court / Justice. What they have done flies in the very face on everything the LAW / Justice stands for in this country. Provided they haven't followed proceedjures.

My understanding is that probiotics (like Yoghurt, Yakult) prepared for humans or other mammals don't colonise the intestines of pigeons very well. On that basis it seems best to buy a probiotic prepared from birds for use on birds. In the UK, Gem, Vydex and others seem to have avian-source products, but I can't say more than that about them. Also, Flight Path is another one that could be considered. Also how long is a Live alive!