So I just dont get it what has been written above. If there are birds untrained my trained pigeons will get confused? I am sure at every liberation there are some birds which should not be there but are. They do not leave the race point but there is always a winner. I have trained my ybs every way you can imagine. Short tosses loads and loads of them upto x3 times a day. First toss from 25 miles and even 35 miles as their first toss today, lost some. I have entered Ybs in every race going before the YB National which is 300 miles or more. Then sent some never had a race in their lives and got them. I would hate to send them to their first race without any training at all, if only x5 5 miles tosses. I did this with 5 later breds YBs and had them all home by the end of the night from mid day liberation. Good pigeons are hard to loose. OMO MJB