timbarra

roland i only give minerals on dry days to ensure they remain dry, but remove them at night mate. spencer

Part one It is with great pleasure that I have been given the opportunity to pen some of my studies in The British Homing world with regards to the so called theory of eyesign. A subject which I have been involved in since the late 80’s, I have judged eyesign shows and done the so called loft visits, which I will admit gave me the chance and opportunity to study so many top class pigeons. As most fanciers will know there have been various articles, video’s and books on the subject of eyesign, for which the sport must be grateful as it set us on the road to try to understand just a little more about our feathered athletes, but most still term eyesign as theory and I am extremely uncomfortable with this word, as it means you as fanciers base your judgement on nothing more than an possibility. So is it any surprise that most of the pigeon fanciers around the world refuse to believe in a possibility (theory), that really has so many question marks surrounding it and which is based on half fact and a fanciers preference and results of he’s own birds and others to then justify a selection process, which he can then claim to be knowledgeable because there is a common denominator for 75% of the winners bred, Well what about the other 25% I hear you ask, well that is exactly my point. I doubt that Indiana Jones would be able to make sense of some of the mystery surrounding eyesign with what has been written so why should you? Eyesign is a genetically link trait this is 100% fact this cannot be denied. Eyesign is a relatively easy subject to understand and all can be explained if you stick to facts and a common sense philosophy, Therefore I will keep it as simple and as clear as possible when I give my explanations because it’s not a hard thing to learn or know, and eyesign will probably still remain a mystery to those people who do not care to entertain the factual concept of it, and by those who are afraid to admit that maybe for all these years they were wrong in their theories. The eyesign debate has been made into a catacomb of mystery because the so called enthusiasts make eyesign so confusing, by trying and make it sound so technical that fanciers can’t be bothered to try and understand it, unless someone puts pen to paper and tells it how it really is and actually opens fanciers eyes (no pun intended) then it will remain a subject of controversy for decades to come. So this is what I will try and do using facts as proof and common sense as a guide. At this point you can either chose to read on and open your mind to satisfy your knowledge and curiosity, or just think you know everything you need to know and not read any further. So how many…. let’s call them eyesign enthusiasts have said this pigeon or that pigeon will race well or breed winners and it has not, there are to many other contributory factors to also take into account when racing like nutritional needs and feather quality, also the health of a pigeon must be good and optimal condition is a must, also healthy lungs, liver, kidney’s, heart, muscle tissue and so on. Remembering good loft management is also essential. How many pigeons with fantastic eyesign have got lost? Baring those that fall foul to accidents and being under conditioned to do the job that is. How many eyesign enthusiasts have said that one eye is better than another just because it is a different colour? So I ask you is a red Ferrari faster than a yellow one of the same model? The answer to that is no, and in relation to our pigeons eyes the fact remains that one colour should be no superior than any other colour, as eye colour is a hereditary factor not a measuring factor. As for eye colour statements such as certain eyes are dominant and others recessive are very much true, but those who cannot determine which is recessive and which are dominant correctly is surprising. I hope to make it clear to fanciers by using facts and common sense as a guide that eyesign exists and is not just a theory that has been created over a period of time just so some fanciers can try and determine a pigeons potential by looking in the eye. Eyesign should not even be attempted to be used for this purpose. I believe eyesign to be a true fact of life, as a pigeon is a combination of inherited genetic material which is predetermined by the genetics of the individual’s parents, and the eye is a small but valuable part of this. This would then exclude eyesign being a theory as it would then be based on genetic fact. The eye is just one part of any living person, bird, mammal, and reptile and is unique to that individual. So you could say it’s like a genetic fingerprint of identity. So do our pigeons have a genetic fingerprint within the eye? I hear you ask. My answer to you the fancier would be yes, and there in five words genetic fingerprint within the eye proves that eyesign is fact and not a theory. The conclusion is then that eyesign is a genetic fingerprint of an individual pigeon, and once this is recognised the following questions appear, how can it be used and what can it be used for? What can this bring to you the fancier and to the world of pigeon racing? Well once you have accepted that eyesign is a fingerprint of identity and is a genetically inherited part of the pigeon, you can use eyesign to guarantee hereditary genetic confirmation of a certain bred individual and nothing more, it’s that simple, and then you will begin to understand eyesign. In short it can be used to confirm that a certain pigeon is of certain parentage, also weather a pigeon is from a highly inbred colony of birds and has a pure bloodline, by pure I mean inbred or line bred for a number of generations. Regarding the colour of pigeon’s eyes all the basic genetic information you need to know at this time is that colours come in two groups, dominant (yellow) and recessive (white). This is a genetic fact. Dominant (Yellow), which is a main banner for eyes referred to as old gold, yellow, green, red, orange and orange based colours. Recessive (White), which is a main banner for eyes referred to as violet, purple, wine, blue, grey and pearl eyes. But you will need never to refer to them other than dominant (yellow) and recessive (white). When mating these colours you must know that white eyed pigeons when paired together will only breed white eyed pigeons. And yellow eyed pigeons will only bred white eyed pigeons if both birds carry the recessive gene for white. (To be continued) Email: spencer@timbarra.co.uk Web Page: www.timbarra.co.uk

its salmonella due to mice urinem baytril at 5ml at 10% solution for 5 days and clean everything.

remember this you get exactly what you pay for. agree with gangster , get birds from top fancier.

Hello all, if I had to determine which of the two eyes illistrated was the eye of an inbred bird I would settle with eye number 2, as its circle of correlation or circle around the eye has less depth and there is smooth iris tissue within the iris. Please could you let me know the result of my choice. thank you Taylors loft for your pictures. regards spencer IB I agree totally with your last statement, Pigeon-man, the fact that your 2 best breeders were strays and selected on eyesign is nothing to prove your fact for selection through eyesign, as you must have chossen all your breeders on eyesign, and to say 2 strays turned out your best breeders says alot for your eyesign selection with regards to the rest of your breeders !! your selection process therefore has fault possibly.

I am willing to determine parentage on any pictures posted on here to help with any understanding, look I not bothered either way , I am not trying to convince anyone , just help understand the basics of eye study. has anyone got a picture of a very inbred eye to post and a cross breed pigeon and I will tell which is which!! thanks spencer

ROLAND your missing my point, there are not good eyes and bad eyes, just good and bad pigeons. eyesign as I know it can only confirm parentage of one set individual. EYESIGN CAN NOT DETERMINE A GOOD OR BAD PIGEON, YOU SEEM TO NOT BE UNDERSTANDING THIS MAT AND WHEN THIS IS ACCEPTED OR NOT DEPENDS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO , THEN EYESIGN WILL BECOME MORE TO YOU. You can not tell a good pigeon by looking in the eye.!!! You can tell however if a pigeon is bred from both pigeons claimed to be its parents !!! I have been proving this to some doubters who when they are corrected and my selection is correct are astounded that this can be done. I can not see why these so called eyesign experts can not see what I do , especially as they harp on to know about genetics, I would not kill pigeons or pair them or select them in anyway on eyesign or I would have a loft full of pretty eyes and thats all. I try to answer all questions on this subject but I agree with you , good pigeon does mean good eye and vice versa. cheers spencer

WRM, I for one am taking my course studies into becoming a qualified Irologist, but things for myself are going slowly due to the fact that i have a young family and they take alot of time, plus I hold down full time employment, so time is short, but i will be gaining my degree in this subject. I can only speak for myself and not others I am affraid. regards spencer

IB, What i am saying is , the performance or ability of a pigeon or any individual cannot be read in the eye. eyesign men say it can , I say no it cant this is a theory, a theory is one mans idea to throw into everybody elses head that there is a quick route to the top . NO there is not as you well know sir. What I believe eyesign or eye reading can be used for is confirming parents of a pigeon. thats it, this is based on gentics which can be read within the whole eye structure. As I think an example is, the late Jed Jackson a fancier who won the National flying club and is respected the world throughout. He was a very inteligent man but he was blind, if any expert looked into hes eyes they would see that damage or deteriation of the eye was evident. but this never ever stopped him from being inteligent and gaining stature in he's lifetime of being one of the sports all time great fanciers. As many blind people are amazingly inteligent I therefore think eyesign to gauge how inteligent one is , is farcical. But eye reading , trying to use genetic material within the eye make up is possibly what can be achieved ?? regards spencer

IB, I understand your scepticism on the subject, I do not claim to know it all and I am not a qualified genetisist. I have done a basic research on the subject and my posting link to another site was trying to show some genetic link can be made !! I have gathered my information over many years, although this does not make me a qualified expert on the subject, I believe I am possibly just opening a door to using eye study to bigger things. I only mean to help anyone who is interested in carryibg on with the subject and taking somewhere it should have gone many decades before now. I believe many many eyesign men including Jack Barkel, Bill Carney, Brian May, S W E Bishop, etc... have flown the flag so to speak on eyesign and they have not wavered under scrutiny. alas they have not taken any further steps in this subject, just stopped at what they think is correct at the time. I have determined parentage in individuals using the eye.... coincedence, luck, I dont think it is as the eye is a genetic finger print for any individual, look at security retinal eye scans? its in practice now and shall be here for a long time. All I am saying is the eye is a genetic finger print for an individual, bird, animal or human. As the eye is a genetic part of any individual it goes without saying then it is gentically inherited. If genetically inherited can this inherited genetic material be visual and at that point can it be learned from? If you can learn a certain part of genetic reading from the eye, what can be read ? IB in what I found is the eye=genetic finger print=genetic information=genetic information is hereditary. which eqauls an opotunity to learn a gentic reading from the eye, which I have begun to do and is still although over 10 years in study still in its infancy. i think it will be used in information gaining over the next 40 years in any individual ... including human. I offer this explanation as a possibly start for eyesign men to pull in the same direction and learn, but eyesign men should never claim to know it all or that its their way or no way. we can all be wrong but maybe we can begin to understand things never before known to us pigeon men. Are you willing to maybe try and understand and give it a chance , just a chance ! I am not asking you or any other to use it to select your pigeons just mearly confirm a pigeon is from 2 parents stated on pedigree, therefore confirming you get what you may pay for at some point !! kindest regards spencer

Have to agree with IB i'm affraid. listen to his advice its not wrong. spencer

Hi Roland, nice to hear from you again, with reference to your comment, it is valid to a point, eyesign as a selection tool is theory yes !! this should not be done using eyesign your quite right. Eyesign or markings or the making up of the eye is a genetic trait, this is a fact nothing more. parentage can be confirmed using eye study for this purpose alone. I totally agree with you roland ... eyesign for selection purposes is a theory !! which is one mans claim to fame of an idea, which he may use to mind wash others into thinking he knows more about good pigeons than the next man. Maybe eye study or visual eye genetics should be more of a title, not eyesign ? hope your well friend spencer

the best methods of linebreeding and is evident in alot of top continental lofts is, niece to uncle,(niece from a brother to the uncle) nephew to aunt and cousins from 2 brothers, also full brother and sister, but this is only if the 2 are exceptional in every department and quality ( not just 2 pigeons that are related) study top european players pedigrees and familys of passed and present, you will see patterns emerging. spencer

Hello I.B, no please do not think you may have offended me, your comments are most welcome, I let my breeding skills and racing skills determine good pigeons from mediocre ones, I do not use eyesign as a selection tool . never do. I believe that it can be used as a confirmation of pedigree, I have found some links for you just to touch on and consider also please give some feed back, eyesign should have moved on by now to a new level which I use myself and shown others when interested, I am not commercially minded in this respect. Please take a look , keep an open mind and decide for your self what is factual and which is one mans idea (theory). kind regards spencer The Eye Color Chart can be used to determine: 1. The probable eye color of the child when the eye colors of the mother and the father are known, or 2. The probable eye color of the biological father when the eye colors of the mother and the child are known. Background: Eye color is known to have a polygenic inheritance pattern, possibly governed by 6 or more genes. There are generally 8 different described eye colors. Basically, dark is dominant at each of the 6 genes. The more dominant alleles that you have the darker your eyes are. The different eye colors and number of dominant alleles suggested in this theory are seen below. IDENTIGENE Eye Color Inheritance Chart: (Number of dominant alleles shown below each eye color) 0 1 2 3 3-4 4 5 6 Visit these sites below to find out more that there is a link between genetic inheritance and the eye. http://www.atypon-link.com/AAP/doi/abs/10.1375/twin.8.3.198 the chart may not down load.

Hello, Thank you for your inteligent response and it is pleasant to converse with someone who deals with facts and not theory. Yes you are quite correct to state that DNA sequencing is required to determine parentage to 99.9% certainty. I am also sure that the eye subject has also been explored and will speak to the qualified people concerned and give you an answer to this. Yes you are quite right in stating it requires more than an eyeglass!! but this method can be used , as I have personally done this and still I have an open mind , so your comment will be explored and answer will be given, please find myself open to critisium and constructive comments , I am not yet an old dog so therefore not beyond having an open mind. thank you sincerly spencer

I have studied the pigeon eye for many a number of years nearly 20 in total, I started with the basic knowledge through wonderful books as, Brian Vickers-eyesign evaluation and this taught me the basics and was the start of understanding eyes for the first time. The next book I found very informative was Racing and breeding by Victor Vansalen , which really is a must for any fancier or player in pigeons. Victors book touched on genetics in an easy to understand format, this is invaluable to any eye study theorist. I learnt that eyesign being genetically link could take us into a new realm of understanding pigeons, but what could we do or learn from looking into the eyes of pigeons ? I was a believer in eyesign as a selection tool and after a further study of genetics (basics) I found this to be a half truth as to many times has it been found to not be 100% correct, and 95% correct is not good enough, due to the theory then having a flaw . So eyesign as a selection tool was totally ignored, so what was its value to the sport? confirmation of parentage ! as eyesign is genetically link and is a genetic fingerprint to any individual, I then set out to find what could or how could we benefit. Eyesign can bring to us the oppotunity to confirm parentage in individuals without having to rely on pedigrees . as we all know some pedigrees can be incorrect and cocks may tread other hens if in a communial loft. first of all we must set our base as to what eye colours are and their identity. YELLOW = DOMINANT WHITE = RECESSIVE BULL = IS PIGMENT LACKED BUT CARRIES WHAT EVER GENE WHITE OR YELLOW FROM PARENTS. GENTIC TRAITS WITHIN THE EYE REAPPEAR IN THIER PROGENY DUE TO INHERITED GENETICS. THESE MARKS CAN BE SEEN IDENTIFIED AND CONFIRMED BY EXAMINATION OF PARENTS IN RELATION TO THE INDIVIDUAL PIGEON BEING VALUED. THATS IT !!! Simple as that , there is no secret sign , no greens violets , composits or any other means needed. why would it be so hard to learn eyesign, who makes it hard , us the people who deal in this so called theory, well its not hard , its as easy as that, we try to look and find so much into something to make the experts look so very knowledgable, why? its not hard its simple, if we kept it simple the folowing and use of eyesign would be legion not the exceptional few. Remember genetics and eyesign go together. eyesign as a measuring tool is not an option here, eyesign enthusiasts use eyesign to get to the top , but the only way this can be achieved is , good pigeons , hard work and patience. spencer

Also can you explain why alot of top fanciers have entire lofts of white eyes at stock and not 50-50 as you say, this I find strange? please could you explain this to me, as I pair white to white and only have white eyes in my breeding loft that have all breed winners including their children and g/children. thanks again spencer.

hi jack , what is a composite eye or a clear eye? can you please explain the difference . thanks spencer

RESPERATORY INFECTION, IT CAN ONLY BE CURED BY ANTIBIOTIC, TYLAN FROM A VET IS WHAT YOU NEED , FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS THEN GIVE 10 DAYS PROBIOTIC AND VITAMINS, REPEAT IF NEEDED. SPENCER

WHITE IS RECESSIVE !! NOT DOMINANT, IT IS A GENE CAUSED BY LACK OF COLOUR PIGMENT AND YOU WILL GET MEALY. BLUE, BLUE PIEDS AND MEALY PIEDS. THATS IT MATE ITS THAT SIMPLE. GENETICS IS A WONDERFUL THING BUT SURELY YOU SHOULD BE CONCERNTRATING ON HEREDITARY FACTORS WITH REPECT TO WINNING GENES NOT COLOUR. REGARDS SPENCER

JSTOON, your a policman IF i understand right. and agreeing with someone to dispose or kill a cat is .. insitement to cause harm or cruelty to animals. which is what you are suppose to be against is it not?? and your suppose to be protecting us and upholding the law !!! A cat can be given to some child as a christmas present and the distress you would cause this child by killing and disposing of their cat Uknowingly to them, what would you do if some one shot your pigeons for landing on their roof... its their roof they got a right to protect it and shitting on their washing?? well ?? if you or anyone class cats as vermin as someone has stated , then look again because the last time I looked mate ... pigeons were classed as vermin RATS WITH WINGS!!! and I dont care if the queen keeps pigeons , when was the last time you saw her in her loft or with a scrapper.. she has an obligation to keep them due to a previous monarch being given some as a gift. so IF you want to remain a police man act like one and stop talking out your a r s e.

9 times out of 10 a cat will kill a pigeon but wont eat it they are predators and designed to do a certain thing, hunt !! I think giving advice to kill cats is so wrong so why give it, JSTOON you have your view but killing cats should not be an option , should it ? there are laws and without them anarchy rules !! I am sure my view is shared by people whos dogs catch a cat in the garden .. the owner of the cat does not come round and shot the *expletive removed* dog does he ? why because dogs chase cats ! millions of years of evolution made it so. same with cats, also other species . . man on the other hand seems to want to kill anything or anyone that does not want to comply with mans way . I have my view and thats all it is my view. as everybody does.

hello Jack, just a question. on the picture of 5 pairs of eyes, are the top 2 on the right, what you call violet eyes .. I would say these 2 are sisters? or brother and sister . is this correct ?

I HAVE HAD CATS TAKE PIGEONS , BUT I NEVER KILLED A CAT !! I WONT LOWER MYSELF AND AS FOR MR CUMBERNAULD, I AGREE WITH THE GENTLEMAN ENTIRELY. NOW THIS FELLA HAS MY REPECT. SOME PEOPLE ON THIS SITE ARE NICE BUT BY LARGE MOST ARE COMPLETE WASTERS AND LOSERS. ITS PEOPLE LIKE YOU GET ON HERE THAT MAKE ME WANNA PACK IT IN , NOT CATS OR HAWKS BUT PEOPLE WITH STUPID ATTITUDES AND IDEAS. GOD HOW DO SOME OF YOU GET ALONG IN LIFE ???

YES CONTROLLED BY THE OWNER , BUT THE LAW STATES THEY HAVE A ROVING COMMISSION , WHICH DOES NOT HELP I MUST SAY. YES OWNERS SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE . BUT THAT CAT WHICH SOMEONE HAS JUST DROWED COULD WELL BELONG TO A 6 YEAR OLD CHILD AND BE THIER PET. WHAT HEARTACHE DO SOME FANCIERS THINK THEY WOULD THEN BE PUTTING THIS YOUNG CHILD THROUGH ? AND THERE IS MY POINT THEY DONT THINK !! SPENCER