timbarra

tAMMY THERE IS A FIRST PLACE MENTIONED IN MESSAGE, THE GENTLEMAN IN PORTUGAL ASKED ME TO SEND A PAIR OF PIGEONS TO BREED HIM WINNERS AND THEY HAVE DONE JUST THAT, HE ONLY BOUGHT 2 PIGEONS AND RESULTS AS SEEN FROM FIRST YOUNG RACED !!!!!! THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONGRATULATORY REMARKS GENTLEMEN. REGARDS SPENCER

TIMBARRA MEULEMANS WIN BIG IN PORTUGAL !! PIGEONS SENT:FROM 1260 MY PIGEON WON THE 4TH PLACE 240 Kms. FROM 1260 MY PIGEON WON THE 17TH PLACE 240 kms. FROM 1260 MY PIGEON WON THE 19TH PLACE 240 kMS. FROM 1260 MY PIGEON WON THE 39TH PLACE 360 KMS. THE NAME OF THE FEMALE IS "white" and is 4 Months old PIGEON SENT: FROM 1260 MY PIGEON WON THE 1ST PLACE 360 KMS. THE NAME OF THE FEMALE IS "CRISTIANA” AND IS 4 MONTHS OLD my meulemans were claimed to be degenerative by a so called eyesign expert , well I hope they carry on with this kind of degeneration ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

look guys I was not about to judge anyone. I just thought if you have a system that works why look for other means such as eyesign and wing theory, whatever the reason , its your perogative and i wish you all well, if you choose to ignore me thats fine, I am in no way intending to discourage anyone. slug monkey, very impressive performances , I congratulate you, my last season before I moved house was 6 races 3x1st, 1x3rd,1x6th,1x7th so i scored in each race, only entering 2 at each race from a team of 5 hens !! then I have been at my present address a year and at the moment have yet to join the local club, but I have young family which takes my time!! I to hold club records, I also do not wish to check your answers as that is not me , some do but I accept your word sir. thats good enough. merlin and ted , its nice to know people are interested in eyesign , all the best to your endeavours. SM my thread has also not gone to scoot as you put it, I care not what people think of me as nobody on here except 2-3 people have actually met me and they make their own decisions . greetings and best regards spencer

Could you please take into account , your last competitive season if not the last few years. if you last raced in 2001 say, then the results for that year will do. regards spencer

please , accept my apologies for interupting, may I ask what merlin and slugmonkey and Jack have won in the last 3-4 years ? just a question as I would find that theory should be backed by proof of results, please dont quote others winning with your birds just what you have won, even if its 1 race or 10 races. I just interested. thanks and no insult intended spencer

so why claim the eyes are from fantails and tipplers crossed ? bored I guess!!

Paulo, I think your opinion is a valid one friend. spencer

what have these pigeons done or do you just cross fancy pigeons and racers ?

taylors lofts, nice eyes..

stuart , think you hit nail full square here mate. not one pigeon man worth his salt could doubt your methods of selection. cheers spencer

can anyone explain how comes the rest of the world population can see eyes as a genetic finger print, and the ordinary pigeon fancier cant???? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D think about it!!!!!!!!

Billy depends what you term good eye and bad eye, what is a bad eye? would you care to explain. combine winners and fed winners I agree have good eyes , but is that because they come from a family of pigeons that have excelled at his catorgory, therefore being genetic, it goes to say that they would have good eyes !!! best wishes spencer,

second part to follow when requested.

Part one It is with great pleasure that I have been given the opportunity to pen some of my studies in The British Homing world with regards to the so called theory of eyesign. A subject which I have been involved in since the late 80’s, I have judged eyesign shows and done the so called loft visits, which I will admit gave me the chance and opportunity to study so many top class pigeons. As most fanciers will know there have been various articles, video’s and books on the subject of eyesign, for which the sport must be grateful as it set us on the road to try to understand just a little more about our feathered athletes, but most still term eyesign as theory and I am extremely uncomfortable with this word, as it means you as fanciers base your judgement on nothing more than an possibility. So is it any surprise that most of the pigeon fanciers around the world refuse to believe in a possibility (theory), that really has so many question marks surrounding it and which is based on half fact and a fanciers preference and results of he’s own birds and others to then justify a selection process, which he can then claim to be knowledgeable because there is a common denominator for 75% of the winners bred, Well what about the other 25% I hear you ask, well that is exactly my point. I doubt that Indiana Jones would be able to make sense of some of the mystery surrounding eyesign with what has been written so why should you? Eyesign is a genetically link trait this is 100% fact this cannot be denied. Eyesign is a relatively easy subject to understand and all can be explained if you stick to facts and a common sense philosophy, Therefore I will keep it as simple and as clear as possible when I give my explanations because it’s not a hard thing to learn or know, and eyesign will probably still remain a mystery to those people who do not care to entertain the factual concept of it, and by those who are afraid to admit that maybe for all these years they were wrong in their theories. The eyesign debate has been made into a catacomb of mystery because the so called enthusiasts make eyesign so confusing, by trying and make it sound so technical that fanciers can’t be bothered to try and understand it, unless someone puts pen to paper and tells it how it really is and actually opens fanciers eyes (no pun intended) then it will remain a subject of controversy for decades to come. So this is what I will try and do using facts as proof and common sense as a guide. At this point you can either chose to read on and open your mind to satisfy your knowledge and curiosity, or just think you know everything you need to know and not read any further. So how many…. let’s call them eyesign enthusiasts have said this pigeon or that pigeon will race well or breed winners and it has not, there are to many other contributory factors to also take into account when racing like nutritional needs and feather quality, also the health of a pigeon must be good and optimal condition is a must, also healthy lungs, liver, kidney’s, heart, muscle tissue and so on. Remembering good loft management is also essential. How many pigeons with fantastic eyesign have got lost? Baring those that fall foul to accidents and being under conditioned to do the job that is. How many eyesign enthusiasts have said that one eye is better than another just because it is a different colour? So I ask you is a red Ferrari faster than a yellow one of the same model? The answer to that is no, and in relation to our pigeons eyes the fact remains that one colour should be no superior than any other colour, as eye colour is a hereditary factor not a measuring factor. As for eye colour statements such as certain eyes are dominant and others recessive are very much true, but those who cannot determine which is recessive and which are dominant correctly is surprising. I hope to make it clear to fanciers by using facts and common sense as a guide that eyesign exists and is not just a theory that has been created over a period of time just so some fanciers can try and determine a pigeons potential by looking in the eye. Eyesign should not even be attempted to be used for this purpose. I believe eyesign to be a true fact of life, as a pigeon is a combination of inherited genetic material which is predetermined by the genetics of the individual’s parents, and the eye is a small but valuable part of this. This would then exclude eyesign being a theory as it would then be based on genetic fact. The eye is just one part of any living person, bird, mammal, and reptile and is unique to that individual. So you could say it’s like a genetic fingerprint of identity. So do our pigeons have a genetic fingerprint within the eye? I hear you ask. My answer to you the fancier would be yes, and there in five words genetic fingerprint within the eye proves that eyesign is fact and not a theory. The conclusion is then that eyesign is a genetic fingerprint of an individual pigeon, and once this is recognised the following questions appear, how can it be used and what can it be used for? What can this bring to you the fancier and to the world of pigeon racing? Well once you have accepted that eyesign is a fingerprint of identity and is a genetically inherited part of the pigeon, you can use eyesign to guarantee hereditary genetic confirmation of a certain bred individual and nothing more, it’s that simple, and then you will begin to understand eyesign. In short it can be used to confirm that a certain pigeon is of certain parentage, also weather a pigeon is from a highly inbred colony of birds and has a pure bloodline, by pure I mean inbred or line bred for a number of generations. Regarding the colour of pigeon’s eyes all the basic genetic information you need to know at this time is that colours come in two groups, dominant (yellow) and recessive (white). This is a genetic fact. Dominant (Yellow), which is a main banner for eyes referred to as old gold, yellow, green, red, orange and orange based colours. Recessive (White), which is a main banner for eyes referred to as violet, purple, wine, blue, grey and pearl eyes. But you will need never to refer to them other than dominant (yellow) and recessive (white). When mating these colours you must know that white eyed pigeons when paired together will only breed white eyed pigeons. And yellow eyed pigeons will only bred white eyed pigeons if both birds carry the recessive gene for white. (To be continued) Email: spencer@timbarra.co.uk Web Page: http://www.timbarra.co.uk

Hi Slugmonkey, I think you have summed up every little aspect of what I think myself , i can only agree with you on what you have said, I handle pigeons of certain familys that win and breed to type as the original founders intended. Eyesign should not be used as a selection tool, but you will get different opinions, eyesign can be used to varify parentage. as this is genetically linked, I shall post my first article on here so you and DAVID L can read it and if further parts be required and your genuinely interested , I would help you anyway that may be of benefit to you. I am after no financial gain like other eyesign men and believe what i have learnt for myself and from other should be made available to all. regards spencer

whatever motivation technique you use for any bird, remember that most birds never fall for the same trick 2 weeks in succesion !! you must constantly think of new ways each week to motivate. 10 day eggs then 4-5 day youngsters then maybe once again sitting 7 days on the next cycle. think about things and stick to it, dont chop and change. As I only raced hens I know of some very good ways to motivate hens, In my last season before moving to my current address, which I have been at for 1 year, I entered 6 races and gained 3x1st, 1x3rd, 1x6th, 1x7th, and only entered 2 pigeons a week from a team of 5 !! also never lost a pigeon. winning all pools twice!! These results were against widow cocks from 71 miles to 200 miles. !! you dont need alot of pigeons and just need to motivate correctly. spencer

Ted and Merlin, I shall not post on this thread , Jack please continue with your methods of teaching whatever you decide, I do not and have not insulted you personally and wish therefore to not converse with anyone who finds this way of comunication acceptable in this day and age. thank you spencer

Hi STuart, I agree with you totally. thats what I am saying .. eyesign should not be used as a selection tool, but your examples of what contributes to a good pigeon does, bloodline is important. all I am saying is eyesign as I know it, will and can only confirm parentage of an individual. cheers spencer

well said Mark regards spencer

give calcium supplement in drinking water twice a week and pigeon shall be fine. grit does not give enough calcium to replace what pigeons need to produce eggs, this is a fact. spencer

Dear people I expected this response from you, I am not nit picking as you state, I have not been rude or aggresive just asking questions !! Also Jack you always leave a get out clause in your explanations and if you are questioned about things, you use this get out clause whenever approriate. Why do you not answer questions.... I state your affraid of being wrong as you believe your way is the only way. Everytime I ask a question , you return a post which contains abusive and personal insults, which I think speaks a thousand words , which people should then read between the lines and decide for themselves. My thread shall remain as it is as I do not intend to give you or anyone who has insulted me an insight into what I have learned from certain people. I think the way you conduct yourself Jack is entirely down to you and as long as your happy with this, then carry on. regards spencer PS. please no more get out clauses to cover yourself, its what eyesign men have done for decades and the sport is tired of it. stand by your convictions and answer simple questions from ordinary people who are interested.

Hello Jack, does your last quote to me not sound contradictory ? the Y chromosone dictates the sex but is not the sex gene, ?? Maybe what you say is the X chromosone from the father carries the sex determination and therefore this X gene is the sex gene? if this is so would not every pigeon bred from the sire be a hen , due to the cock handing down a X chromosone to every young bred? Also as in your wing theory, could I please ask you ... I have 2 cock birds, GABRIEL 11X1ST PRIZE - 4X1ST FEDERATION. and BEER 55 23X1ST- 4X 1ST FEDERATION, Both have a step in the wing, would you then have selected these out on what you refer to as your opinion or what you like to see, which is only your preferance? I do have good birds with and without a step in the wing , so to me I give no relivance to the wing, but my preferance is to have a step between primary and secondary flights. Could we go further on the genetic side of things with your article because I do enjoy this subject and find what you have written interesting to pass some time reading. Also I have not known any top continental players to mate within a direction of sire to daughter , generation after generation as you surgest. Also you state that we should pair yellow eye to white eye, as in opposite colours, then after linebreeding state we should pair the same colour eye together? a contradiction. Also you say a pearl is a pink eye but constantly refer to it as white, I am not picking holes here , but your writtings could be misunderstood by many and therefore add to the confusion of what your trying to explain !! thanks again spencer

Hello Jack, You state the daughter does not inherit any sex gene from the mother , but she does inherit the Y chromosone which would dictate to a degre more or less, that this Y chromosone possibly dectates a female ? Maybe I have this wire crossed and if wrong I stand corrected. I think this article is more of a bigger picture of eyesign and eyesign makes up a small part of the whole picture. I would consider genetics as a major role in any living thing, eyesign , wing, pedigree, and type are smaller parts of the whole. I think this section of your research and findings is great and I am enjoying this section very much, ( not patronising you) I would like to thank you for touching on this and giving very much detail in the post. I refered to genetics in our past massages as this is the most important sector of any living thing. Jack I am enjoying this, please continue. regards spencer

Hello Jack, I agree with you in most of your statement, I know pigeons have 16 pairs of chromosones, the cock has 32 active chromosones and the hen 31 active chromosones , as the hen has a vacant Y chromosone which she passes on to her daughter, this Y chromosone has no genetic information. and can only be passed to her daughters who therefore then carry the vacant Y chromosone, I believe this is what your saying in another way and I agree. Could I ask , and thank you for explaining the genetic drift concept as I did not ( I openly admit) understand it fully. With regards to the genetic drift, saying that genetic material could be inherited from a family member or ancestor from certain previous generations, would I be correct in saying that the parents inherited this genetic information from them to pass on in the first place. which is a fact I know. I think we agree on this, I am shocked but smiling pleasantly , as this may be common ground for us!! Also would you not think that to control the genetics within your own gene pool, and I am saying in my own loft, would this not be best done by inbreeding and line breeding, as this closes the gene variation, as crossing pigeons only widens it and gives more variation. thanks Jack , I am not looking for conflict here just clarity to how some fanciers work, think, and employ their methods. regards spencer

I think people miss the point with gut flora, human gut flora is different to avian gut flora. use an avian gut flora product like magic , its cheap and does the job, spencer