Diamond dave Posted December 30, 2011 Report Posted December 30, 2011 Can anyone let me know the basic principle of Line Breeding and at what point you might need to put a cross into it......... D.D.
Wiley Posted December 30, 2011 Report Posted December 30, 2011 Have a look at YouTube and search lavender lofts he explains both line breeding and inbreeding in two different videos
billt Posted December 30, 2011 Report Posted December 30, 2011 Can anyone let me know the basic principle of Line Breeding and at what point you might need to put a cross into it......... D.D. The basis of line breeding is to breed closely related birds together, not sire to daughter, dam to son or sibling to sibling, This is termed in breeding, it's ok to a point but need to keep close eye on results, As far as I'm concerned you can carry on line breeding if you're getting the results
K J Young Posted December 30, 2011 Report Posted December 30, 2011 Just wondering , why not sire to daughterThe basis of line breeding is to breed closely related birds together, not sire to daughter, dam to son or sibling to sibling, This is termed in breeding, it's ok to a point but need to keep close eye on results, As far as I'm concerned you can carry on line breeding if you're getting the results
billt Posted December 30, 2011 Report Posted December 30, 2011 Just wondering , why not sire to daughter Yes mate, I don't have a problem with that, I was just pointing out that this is termed inbreeding as opposed to linebreeding
Diamond dave Posted December 30, 2011 Author Report Posted December 30, 2011 Wiley - thanks for the link to Lavender Lofts but to be honest I didn't understand a word of it!!!?Probably just me but it didn't tell me anything........
andy Burgess Posted December 30, 2011 Report Posted December 30, 2011 Wiley - thanks for the link to Lavender Lofts but to be honest I didn't understand a word of it!!!?Probably just me but it didn't tell me anything........from what i understood Dave , an example, Grand father flew well or bred winners paired to a Grand daughter who flew well or bred winners ,would produce "Line bred" offspring , and so on ,,,,, .
Diamond dave Posted December 30, 2011 Author Report Posted December 30, 2011 So, what are the benefits of line breeding as opposed to inbreeding? D.D.
billt Posted December 30, 2011 Report Posted December 30, 2011 So, what are the benefits of line breeding as opposed to inbreeding? D.D. In reality they're much the same thing, when breeding sire to daughter you end up with 75% sire's genes and so on, I think it's the only way to breed a team of winning pigeons, bringing in an outcross could spoil many years of breeding, but a very interesting topic
K J Young Posted December 30, 2011 Report Posted December 30, 2011 Yes mate, I don't have a problem with that, I was just pointing out that this is termed inbreeding as opposed to linebreeding I wasn't meaning it was wrong , up till last year I just let ma racers pair up there selfs and ma stock pairings had been the same for 3 years , so I decided to try it with ma no1 stock cock and paired him to his daughter and bingo , so I have picked 3 pairs this year to try and form my own sort of family , fingers crossed , still am no sure if it will work , only time will tell .
billt Posted December 30, 2011 Report Posted December 30, 2011 I wasn't meaning it was wrong , up till last year I just let ma racers pair up there selfs and ma stock pairings had been the same for 3 years , so I decided to try it with ma no1 stock cock and paired him to his daughter and bingo , so I have picked 3 pairs this year to try and form my own sort of family , fingers crossed , still am no sure if it will work , only time will tell . Yes that's good, If your No.1 cock was producing the goods, paired back to his daughter the youngsters will carry 75% of his genes
K J Young Posted December 30, 2011 Report Posted December 30, 2011 Yes that's good, If your No.1 cock was producing the goods, paired back to his daughter the youngsters will carry 75% of his genesSo how would you pair the offspring
billt Posted December 30, 2011 Report Posted December 30, 2011 So how would you pair the offspring I would pair them back to what he was producing with his previous mate
K J Young Posted December 30, 2011 Report Posted December 30, 2011 I would pair them back to what he was producing with his previous mateThanks for the advice , cheers
billt Posted December 30, 2011 Report Posted December 30, 2011 Thanks for the advice , cheersYou're welcome, hope you have a lot of success
Diamond dave Posted December 31, 2011 Author Report Posted December 31, 2011 So, if I understand correctly, with Inbreeding both babies get 75% of the parent birds Genes - I assume that it would be the same for mother to son pairings but what about brother to sister - who gets who's genes?Can you tell me what genes are retained by line breeding and by who and what happens in a straight cross.Is there a chart anywhere showing the potential of each pairing and who gets who's genes?Grateful for your help..... D.D.
dal2 Posted December 31, 2011 Report Posted December 31, 2011 So how would you pair the offspring If you have a few off the inbred pair then perhaps now would be the time tae try a cross cos you can always bring the inbred back together if not successful. Never race inbreds always stock!
K J Young Posted December 31, 2011 Report Posted December 31, 2011 If you have a few off the inbred pair then perhaps now would be the time tae try a cross cos you can always bring the inbred back together if not successful. Never race inbreds always stock!thats me lost now,
Guest IB Posted January 1, 2012 Report Posted January 1, 2012 So, if I understand correctly, with Inbreeding both babies get 75% of the parent birds Genes - I assume that it would be the same for mother to son pairings but what about brother to sister - who gets who's genes?Can you tell me what genes are retained by line breeding and by who and what happens in a straight cross.Is there a chart anywhere showing the potential of each pairing and who gets who's genes?Grateful for your help..... D.D. Don't want to confuse you more, or disagree with what you've been told, but start with the fact that every young bird inherits 50% of its genes from its sire, and 50% of its genes from its dam - just as its parents did from their sire and dam - and its parents before that.. So the parent's 100% gene pool consists of bits of its parents, its grand parents, its great grandparents, its greatgreatgrandparents, etc. etc Of that 100% it can pass on only 50% to its youngster. That 50% consists of a random selection of 50% of perhaps 10,000 genes. How many different combinations can you get from 10,000? That ensures that two youngsters in the nest from the same parents will generally have a different genetic makeup. Line breeding, inbreeding and crossing are different methods of breeding a family. Line breeding usually means breeding back to one common ancestor, maybes a national winning cock, when you pair him to different hens, each of which gives a different line down off that cock. So the children off Hen A, are paired with children off Hen B. etc. Inbreeding is where a common ancestor appears more than once on the pedigree. For example the cock in the line breeding example, paired to his granddaughter off the Hen A x Hen B mating. He appears on both sides of the pedigree and is known as a double grandsire; the children from this mating will have a pedigree peppered with this cock, he is father, grandfather and greatgrandfather to them, and that is when I would consider crossing these youngsters with other, unrelated inbred pigeons.. A cross is (usually) 2 totally unrelated inbred pigeons paired together. This cross 'invigorates' the breeding, while continued inbreeding is said to 'depress' it.
Kyleakin Lofts Posted January 1, 2012 Report Posted January 1, 2012 I remember reading that close breeding takes 4 generations before it becomes inbreeding. Line breeding is family pairings within a certain line, but not too close as to become inbreeding.Inbreeding gives results far quicker than line breeding and both allow you to predict the results you will have. The results may not always be what you want however, so, especially with inbreeding, you have to be extremely careful and cull accordingly.In the hands of a skillful and knowledgeable stockman both inbreeding and line breeding have their place and are able to be used with great success. The skilled stockman knows when to introduce a cross and when breeding on a male line, that cross will always be a hen, which will immediately be bred back out of the family. The introduction of her genes having performed their use. In the hands of an unskilled person, a family can be completely ruined.Crossing is better termed outcrossing and with this form of breeding, no family exists and whilst the results can be very effective they are less able to be predicted.What do we breed for? To produce birds thaat are able to race well at our preferred distance. What characteristics do these birds require? Winning birds all require to have the same characteristics. Outcrossing with birds of quality is able therefore to allow you to produce birds of winning quality.All breeding systems work effectively in the correct hands, but they all suffer from the 95% rule.
Diamond dave Posted January 2, 2012 Author Report Posted January 2, 2012 Thank you all for your replies - they are most helpful.My understanding now is that to keep my birds pure, I should line breed but to bring out the best of that family I should inbreed around my best pigeon....?The one thing I don't understand is what genetic outcome could I expect from a sibling pairing?
andy Burgess Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 Thank you all for your replies - they are most helpful.My understanding now is that to keep my birds pure, I should line breed but to bring out the best of that family I should inbreed around my best pigeon....?The one thing I don't understand is what genetic outcome could I expect from a sibling pairing?its a case of try it and see . many a mistake made in the past when this was done, and a few winners produced , no guarantees but .. worth a go.
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