A Reason For Yb Losses?

[Guest IB]

Was thinking on the YB losses Scottish Feds experience racing from North East England, and the term my own Fed Management used for that area at the time ‘a black hole’ They thought it was caused by something above ground like the amount of radio & TV transmitters in that area affecting the birds’ bearings. I’d been in touch with an American professor a few years before that, about ultrasound / the sounds pigeons can hear, and something he said then came back to memory: in US certain areas were known to be difficult for pigeons because they contained anomalies, like a lot of iron in the districts’ rocks, which affected birds homing ability. Consett is the most recent location discussed on the forum and I know from history there was once a large steel industry there and I wondered if there were iron deposits there that gave rise to that industry, and perhaps caused such an anomaly.

 

Just had a quick look on web, but it is obvious that the whole North East of England / Southern Scotland contains magnetic anomalies, see 3 & 4 below, and according to research these have an affect on pigeons homing ability, see 1 & 2 below. As I said just a quick look, and only at the plain English bits.

 

Is this why we have such bad racing from this area with YBs?

 

1.

The bigger picture – pigeon Navigation

 

The subject is part of a greater concept; Research on (pigeon) navigation, which is being studied for over 50 years now at the Zoological Institute of the J.W. Goethe University of Frankfurt. The foreknown professor Wolfgang Wiltschko is presently the head of this Department. On my question to tell some more on the current vision of pigeon navigation, an extensive answer followed. Pigeons have a number of cues to then determine the direction of their home loft. The present view is that they use several senses to determine their way home, but that doesn’t mean the whole mystery is solved. At least 2 or 3 senses and up to 8 factors are under consideration. Avian navigation is described as a two-step process: in the first step, the bird determines the compass course leading to the goal. Then, in the second step, it uses a compass to locate this course. The compass is used to find out where home lies, followed by transformation of the compass course into an actual direction of flying. The compass-senses used are the sun compass and the magnetic compass, and among the senses of the navigational map is also magnetic field intensity, in fact, pigeons seem to be very sensitive concerning magnetic field intensity. The navigational map is linked to the sensitivity of birds to olfactory cues, visual landmarks, infrasound, gravity and air pressure. Migratory birds also use moon and stars when they travel by night. Pigeons (and other migratory birds) are born with a so called magnetic compass which is able to determine the direction (in senses of pole and equator) and the field gradients of the earth geomagnetic field. Small pieces of magnetite have been found at nerve ends in the head of pigeons, which can be affected by the geomagnetic field.

 

2.

Do magnetic anomalies affect pigeon Navigation?

 

Positive evidence comes mainly from studies within magnetic anomalies. Several authors (e.g. Wagner, 1976; Frei and Wagner, 1976; Dennis et al., 2007) reported a tendency of pigeons to fly along local magnetic gradients; recently, flight along isolines were also observed (Dennis et al., 2007). Walcott released pigeons in strong anomalies in the New England region of the USA, and reported that the vector lengths calculated from the vanishing bearings were negatively correlated with the teepness of the gradient of total intensity 1 km in the home direction, with very steep gradients leading to isorientation (Walcott, 1978). Kiepenheuer also observed disorientation of pigeons within an anomaly in southern Germany (Kiepenheuer,1982). These findings suggest an effect of the local magnetic situation on the pigeons’ orientation behavior. However, a study comparing the behavior of pigeons from different lofts released at the same site within a magnetic anomaly revealed that not all pigeons respond in the same way; some appear to be unaffected by the anomaly (Walcott, 1986; Walcott, 1992).

 

http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/212/18/2983.pdf

 

3

Magnetic anomalies exist in North-East England

A vertical field magnetic survey of Durham and South Northumberland supplements the gravity survey described in the previous paper. The field survey and its reduction are described and some of the problems of interpretation are mentioned.

A negative magnetic anomaly over the Alston Block is interpreted as another manifestation of a concealed granite under Weardale. Similar anomalies occur over exposed mineralized granites elsewhere, and arise from granite with low polarization existing in country rocks with higher polarization. The magnetic minima are displaced to the south-east of the corresponding gravity minima, and it is thought that this is caused by permanent polarization directed westwards in the country rocks. A violent positive anomaly lies immediately to the north at Blanchland and is tentatively interpreted as a marginal feature of the assumed granite.

A magnetic anomaly of Caledonian strike in Northumberland probably marks the southern limit of low-polarization basement rocks. This may well represent the south-eastern limit of the sub-Carboniferous outcrop of the Southern Uplands Upper Ordovician and Silurian rocks.

http://jgslegacy.lyellcollection.org/cgi/content/abstract/113/1-4/119

 

 

4.

Magnetic anomalies exist in northern England and southern Scotland

Single-station transfer functions linking the time variations of the vertical and horizontal components of the magnetic field at stations in northern England and southern Scotland have been compiled into a uniform data set. From hypothetical event analysis we show here that there are two distinct anomalies in the Borders region. One runs south-west to north-east, immediately to the south-east of the Southern Uplands Fault; the second follows the Northumberland Basin, and seems to exist because the conductive sedimentary rocks filling the basin create a link between the Irish and North Seas. If the lapetus suture is marked by a conductivity anomaly, as has been suggested1,2, these results place it beneath the Southern Uplands, unless it is masked by the surface conductor in the Northumberland Basin.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v303/n5917/abs/303516a0.html

[dal2]

IB. I thought that last week we discussed on here that YB losses were worse now than ever?. Surely if you are pointin at geological fault lines causing magnetic anomilies then they surely would have existed since the retraction of the ice age!. I am sure that magnetics and the distortion of fields within must affect something but are we really sure thats what the pigeon definately uses? I read with great interest on here of posts concerning Telephone masts and Television signals interfering with oor doos 'radar' due to modern inventions like digital television. The waveforms and carriers for such signals have existed for many years with the bandwidth being extended to cope with extra demand but still the wave form exists.

Black holes due to magnetism in the areas you pinpoint must surely affect the lofts situated within?

Cheers Steven

 

PS Its a strange old game

[Guest IB]

Steven, the common themes seem to be any Federation liberating YBs within this area to fly North will suffer unexplained substantial losses - every year.

 

No one really knows how pigeons find their way home, but most folks agree that the bird must use a range of natural skills that it is born with. If it meets changing circumstances on the way home the bird is also thought to switch between those skills. YBs appear not to be able (or willing) to switch as effortlessly as OBs, and if they do make use of magnetic fields it may be their inexperience makes them rely too much on them.

 

My limited understanding of these fields is that they normally run North - South, but these anomalies in NE England are said to cause 'a SE distortion'. Now in geophysics I don't know if SE field direction is the same as wind direction, in which case the fields would be running toward the Irish Sea instead of North into Scotland; or if SE is same as map direction, instead of running North it's running almost opposite direction, toward South East.

 

I believe SHU needs to commission research on these Annual losses, but I do think that this is one aspect that that research should cover, how the local geological conditions at racepoints might affect birds' orientation.

[dal2]

Steven, the common themes seem to be any Federation liberating YBs within this area to fly North will suffer unexplained substantial losses - every year.

 

No one really knows how pigeons find their way home, but most folks agree that the bird must use a range of natural skills that it is born with. If it meets changing circumstances on the way home the bird is also thought to switch between those skills. YBs appear not to be able (or willing) to switch as effortlessly as OBs, and if they do make use of magnetic fields it may be their inexperience makes them rely too much on them.

 

My limited understanding of these fields is that they normally run North - South, but these anomalies in NE England are said to cause 'a SE distortion'. Now in geophysics I don't know if SE field direction is the same as wind direction, in which case the fields would be running toward the Irish Sea instead of North into Scotland; or if SE is same as map direction, instead of running North it's running almost opposite direction, toward South East.

 

I believe SHU needs to commission research on these Annual losses, but I do think that this is one aspect that that research should cover, how the local geological conditions at racepoints might affect birds' orientation.

 

Defo agree that the magnetic pull or distortion caused by differing rock groups will be sensed by the pigeons and that some affect to the homing instinct will occur but I think the SHU should start with the spotter plane from a large liberation first so that we can push on with the fight against the clear and present danger that is BOP.

[gulkie]

surely all the reasons that you describe on this link would effect

all the birds and not just some?

[greenlands]

surely all the reasons that you describe on this link would effect

all the birds and not just some?

I would also have thought the same.

One thing that I would like to add to the discussion is.

The West Cumbrian birds fly over Selafield,an atomic energy plant,I would have thought that if anything would disorientate birds this form of energy would.Even though these types of plant are monitored I'm sure that they must have some sort of effect on the surrounding area.

Then again some get good returns others not so good.

just a thought.

[WulDon]

obvious reason staring you in the face lads, stop making it complicated... controllers not doing there homework, when you got libs going north and south in same areas liberating at same times, huge recipe for disaster, our feds had heavy losses at witton castle & ripon with early libs of 7.00am, nothing working back coz they are too far south... yesterday we were at wakefield with a later lib of 11.00am and most lofts have 100% returns, proof in pudding, but nothing being done! will happen again next year, then the next until we have no fanciers left???

[dal2]

obvious reason staring you in the face lads, stop making it complicated... controllers not doing there homework, when you got libs going north and south in same areas liberating at same times, huge recipe for disaster, our feds had heavy losses at witton castle & ripon with early libs of 7.00am, nothing working back coz they are too far south... yesterday we were at wakefield with a later lib of 11.00am and most lofts have 100% returns, proof in pudding, but nothing being done! will happen again next year, then the next until we have no fanciers left???

 

 

Theres probs a hundred different reasons but I still think that the birds of prey must be a huge factor. Racin here in the south we gan doon the west and as far as I know its just us , Midland and of course the cumbrian boys that are on this route?

[dal2]

I would also have thought the same.

One thing that I would like to add to the discussion is.

The West Cumbrian birds fly over Selafield,an atomic energy plant,I would have thought that if anything would disorientate birds this form of energy would.Even though these types of plant are monitored I'm sure that they must have some sort of effect on the surrounding area.

Then again some get good returns others not so good.

just a thought.

 

 

Wer absolutely knackered then Lindsay cos here in Ecclefechan we got Chapelcross tae fly over tae.

[Guest IB]

Defo agree that the magnetic pull or distortion caused by differing rock groups will be sensed by the pigeons and that some affect to the homing instinct will occur but I think the SHU should start with the spotter plane from a large liberation first so that we can push on with the fight against the clear and present danger that is BOP.

 

Yes I think the spotter plane is a must. Can't disagree with your comments on peregrines and their density on the territory you fly on the West route and the other comment on possible clashing on East route between North & South-roaders. But we must still remain open-minded as to causes. If we decide at the beginning what are we looking for and from that the recording equipment the plane will carry, for example cameras only, say a large part of the convoy suddenly veers off-course for no visible reason, how will the cause be known? How do you interpret a result like that and who would do the analyses for us?

[clockman]

obvious reason staring you in the face lads, stop making it complicated... controllers not doing there homework, when you got libs going north and south in same areas liberating at same times, huge recipe for disaster, our feds had heavy losses at witton castle & ripon with early libs of 7.00am, nothing working back coz they are too far south... yesterday we were at wakefield with a later lib of 11.00am and most lofts have 100% returns, proof in pudding, but nothing being done! will happen again next year, then the next until we have no fanciers left???

your right willie best y/bird race this year,plus they got a chance to get a drink,the doos i mean,

[WulDon]

your right willie best y/bird race this year,plus they got a chance to get a drink,the doos i mean,

 

 

our best race this year!

[hotrod]

obvious reason staring you in the face lads, stop making it complicated... controllers not doing there homework, when you got libs going north and south in same areas liberating at same times, huge recipe for disaster, our feds had heavy losses at witton castle & ripon with early libs of 7.00am, nothing working back coz they are too far south... yesterday we were at wakefield with a later lib of 11.00am and most lofts have 100% returns, proof in pudding, but nothing being done! will happen again next year, then the next until we have no fanciers left???

 

 

ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON and of course theres the bop taking out the tired ones trying to home after flying 100,s of miles the other way .staurday for north road and either friday or sunday for south road feds this would sort it out im sure

[Guest stevie-b]

the majority of feds libbed later yesterday due to bad weather i think its bops is the biggest problem iive had 6 youngsters this year come back hawked

[WulDon]

totally agree BOP a huge problem now, i stood and watched in sheer disgust this year when Mr.Percy took one of my youngsters out the air when excersing around the loft!

 

but, when a hawk or peregrine strike a convoy of racers a very small percentage actually realise what has happened so in all honesty i reckon predators only account for a small percentage of our losses on saturdays!

 

our later lib yesterday ensured all young birds had plenty of time to get to the drinkers, liberating at 7am at this time of year is guaranteeing most young birds are not drinking especially in transporters like ours with no form of artificial lighting... i exercise my young birds as early as i can in the mornings and lately it has not been possible to let them out until about 6.45am, so how can young birds expect to be fully hydrated upon liberation!

 

dehydration causes confusion, disorientation, and heavy losses!

 

jmo lads but we all know that this is the way it is!

[Guest stevie-b]

they dont know so much when its hawks but peregrines are a different ball game they can turn hundreds of birds and they have youngsters leaving the nest at this time of years and are grabbing birds and dropping them to teach themselves to kill the controllers job is totally thankless i for one would not do it or want the responsibilty for that hanging over our heads there needs to be changes i agree especially us libberating wi angus fed when its a howling west wind its asking for trouble i watched birds being sick on our transporter 3 weeks ago totall disgusted as somebody put them away like that and other birds in crate eating it YBS spreads like wildfire its a major problem

[hotrod]

they dont know so much when its hawks but peregrines are a different ball game they can turn hundreds of birds and they have youngsters leaving the nest at this time of years and are grabbing birds and dropping them to teach themselves to kill the controllers job is totally thankless i for one would not do it or want the responsibilty for that hanging over our heads there needs to be changes i agree especially us libberating wi angus fed when its a howling west wind its asking for trouble i watched birds being sick on our transporter 3 weeks ago totall disgusted as somebody put them away like that and other birds in crate eating it YBS spreads like wildfire its a major problem

 

stevie just because a bird is sick in the transporter doesnt mean its got ybs ,lots of birds will be sick during transporting to the race point or between pick ups at clubs .travelsickness its called

[Guest youngzimmy]

CAN YOU GET READING SICKNESS WHEN SOME PEOPLE ARE TALKING A LOT OF CRAP

[WulDon]

CAN YOU GET READING SICKNESS WHEN SOME PEOPLE ARE TALKING A LOT OF CRAP

 

 

go and read the 'beano'or something them m8, this is an open forum where fanciers can voice there opinions on our sport, if you dont like what you read subscribe to 'womens weekly' or something!

[frank-123]

one thing pigeons eyesight must be ten times better than our now if they see a peregrine strike i still reckon they would turn

and for no one who has witnessed a peregrine strike belieive me when i say a batch can dive into a tree at full speed and wont come back out for hours

 

this year think on the races

 

you get a couple of birds then nothing for an hour or hours

then bang you get a few bird within minutes of each other with hardly anything taken out there body's

then others are flown out to get home

birds home with feathers missing or holes in there bodys

so peregrine hitting above and sparrowhawks below its a hard old life for pigeons

[WulDon]

the only peregrine bother i have witnessed was at my own loft as mentioned earlier, but percy was only interested in the odd young bird not flying with the pack, and it eventually did single one out and strike away with it... not once did it bother the pack nor did the pack seem to bother either, apart from gaining some height.

 

agree it probabaly would scatter a team of birds training, wots the average team these days 50-70 young birds, but couldnt seen it having that effect on a convoy of 1500 upwards?

 

has anyone witnesssed a strike on a convoy? if so what happened?

[Guest IB]

Same sort of question as just posted by Wuldon: Has anyone witnessed 2 or more convoys clashing and if so, what happened?

[Novice]

A very strange thing is that some Scottish feds had decent racing yesterday liberating late.

The feds racing into West Scotland ie Ayrshire Ballochmyle and West Strathclyde from a similar late liberation from Ripon at 12:15 had a horrendous race.

Ayrshire North road liberated at 11:00 and had a terrible race.

Is there a logical explanation?

[JADE]

A very strange thing is that some Scottish feds had decent racing yesterday liberating late.

The feds racing into West Scotland ie Ayrshire Ballochmyle and West Strathclyde from a similar late liberation from Ripon at 12:15 had a horrendous race.

Ayrshire North road liberated at 11:00 and had a terrible race.

Is there a logical explanation?

 

NO

[Whats it called Cumbernauld]

Bop's very bad.Woever got to go with Clashing for the main reason for losses.In Glasgow fed sent 18 and got 18 for three weeks in a row however once turned south and into north of England we have major losses.

 

I am however reluctant to blame race controles we must give them more power to do as they see fit (different times and days) if that is whats required in order to get better returns then so be it.

 

Must be united whatever we do (To late for a wishy washy responce