Roland

Over the back garden the idiot ALWAYS spends a fortune on fireworks. Birth days, Xmas and Nov 5th. He is about 7 foot away from my loft. Starts normally about 10 - 11 O'clock till about 2 in morning. Started last night and I expect it will go on to Tuesday. Used to get peeved and worry regards the doo's. Never did any harm in that respect though to be honest.

When one considers how many bacteria./ viruses / fungi could hide in a 1/10 mm crack and that all chemical disinfectants don't work in the presence of organic matter, one comes to the conclusion that a flame is perhaps the best disinfectant. One just needs to watch that one doesn't burn down the loft lol. Then again natural immunity from a sterile loft? Oxymoron, Corpoghraphy whatever. It never will happen. A complete impossibility and waste of money. The natural immunity is a must! However sometimes a helping hand may be beneficial. To build immunity birds have to be exposed to the pathogens first. One can scrape a loft daily and never get rid of all the nasties. That is good for one can over sterilize the loft so as not not to build immunity. The discovery of antibiotics more than 70 years ago initiated a period of drug innovation and implementation in human and animal health and agriculture. These discoveries were tempered in all cases by the emergence of resistant microbes1, 2. This history has been interpreted to mean that antibiotic resistance in pathogenic bacteria is a modern phenomenon; this view is reinforced by the fact that collections of microbes that predate the antibiotic era are highly susceptible to antibiotics3. Here we report targeted metagenomic analyses of rigorously authenticated ancient DNA from 30,000-year-old Beringian permafrost sediments and the identification of a highly diverse collection of genes encoding resistance to β-lactam, tetracycline and glycopeptide antibiotics. (Oxtetracycline was the only one once for Salmonella, may still be?) Structure and function studies on the complete vancomycin resistance element VanA confirmed its similarity to modern variants. These results show conclusively that antibiotic resistance is a natural phenomenon that predates the modern selective pressure of clinical antibiotic use." The microb always develops itself to resist antibiots to stays live. Has too obviously. A week after grilling hamburgers in his backyard in November 2011, business consultant Kenneth Koehler became violently ill. He suffered stomach pains, diarrhea and nausea - and was rushed to the hospital emergency room. Days later, his doctors told him that his burger was contaminated with Salmonella Typhimurium, a strain commonly found in ground beef. But Koehler's salmonella was more dangerous than he realized. Records provided to Reuters by Koehler showed that the salmonella strain in the ground beef was resistant to nine types of antibiotics. Three of the antibiotics that didn't work were cephalosporins, including ceftriaxone, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention records. Neither Koehler, 56, nor his doctors know for certain whether ceftiofur had been administered to any of the cows whose meat was contaminated. But they knew the drugs that his salmonella strain were resisting. That's because he was among the last of 19 people from seven states sickened in the outbreak, according to Koehler and the CDC records. Based on the CDC's testing of the salmonella strain, Koehler said, his doctors already determined ceftriaxone wouldn't work. Instead, they prescribed ciprofloxacin, a powerful antibiotic in a different drug category. In humans, about 3 percent of all salmonella samples tested in 2012 by the CDC were resistant to ceftriaxone. 'They went directly to cipro,' Koehler said of his doctors. 'To put it bluntly, this salmonella really kicked my butt.' Investigators for the Maine branch of the CDC tested the leftover beef in Koehler's freezer. The tests showed the source of his salmonella was ground beef bought at a supermarket. Koehler was fortunate. He was treated and released the same day. Eight other people with ceftriaxone-resistant salmonella were hospitalized in the same outbreak, according to the CDC records. One thing I have found by those that sell hamburgers is that the customer is often asked 'How do you want your hamburger done?' They don't seem to understand that there is really only one SAFE way to cook hamburgers - and that is THOROUGHLY. At home, proper cooking of hamburgers or tenderized steak means that there should not be any pink in the centre of the meat if it is cooked thoroughly. Cutting boards, utensils need to be disinfected afterward, etc.. It's all common sense, not rocket science. Re: Antibiotic resistance in bacteria, for many years I've wondered if one approach could be to retire specific antibiotics from use as soon as possible when bacterial resistance begins to develop, and store these antibiotics (and/or the moulds that produced them originally) in bio-secure facilities. For years if necessary. Then, as the newer generations of antibiotics start to fail because of bacterial resistance, test these stored antibiotics to determine if they might be as effective as they were originally. Just a thought. For fanciers I'd suggest a few things: As much as possible, avoid the use of antibiotics, and other treatments in pigeons. Instead try to develop strong natural resistance whenever possible. When treatment is actually proved to be needed, use the full recommended dose for the full recommended time. Avoid the so-called preventive treatments that too many fanciers use or recommend just before the breeding and racing seasons. Why preventively treat a condition that may not even exist in your birds? This approach just knocks out the billions of protective bacteria in the digestive system. The gut needs them! Now take Amoxicillin. What is really the right prescribe dosage? It's a question for which there is not an easy answer. It depends what you want to kill with it for starters. (If you know!) Then how resistant these bacteria are to the amoxicillin. Once you know this (Well what percentage of Vets, let alone fanciers know that?) you will need to know how much water the birds drink at this time of year in your loft. That's why many fanciers give medication over their feed nowadays. The following is therefore based on many assumptions: Let's assume that your birds are not feeding youngsters and let us assume that each bird drinks 50 ml water per day. (80 birds drink 1 gallon in 1 day) (Obviously different quota for different birds due to health, energy or stress, breeding and the individuality etc, of the bird. So how can there be a rule of the thumb! Further lets assume that the bacteria you want to kill are susceptible when exposed to 20 mg amoxicillin per bird per day. (1600 mg added to 1 gallon) - (Again the variations and possibilities are endless) After water is added to the bottle of amoxicillin how many ml would this bottle have now? (There are various formulations of this antibiotic) Gosh and some treat blind or ask a mate, or post on a site for help lol.

Any one, or club put proposals forward regards any help / way forward in regards our horrid - and getting worse - pigeon losses?

Is but a shame William but it has dried up I guess.

Another reality that doesn't equate in any way to helping a bird by treatments etc. Good Feathering The importance of good feathering as a reflection of the quality of a pigeon can never be overemphasised. For every fancier the quality of the feather is a very good and immediate indication as to the quality of the pigeon. A good quality feather is the foundation stone for breeding the champion pigeon and a pigeon with poor feathers should never be considered for stock because good feathering is a reflection of both good breeding and good health. The healthy feather is silky, flexible, strong and waterproof. These features are all important for efficient flight. The high oil content of the healthy feather gives it the silky feel. The silkier the feather the greater the lift due to the streamlining effect required for efficient flight. The dry feather we get with many illnesses means that there is less streamlining (over the body and wing) and more drag with a subsequent loss of lift and less efficient flight. More energy is required causing the bird to tire more quickly. The dry feather being less flexible means that the twisting motion of the end flights that gives forward thrust is lessened, which results in a slower bird. The dry feather is brittle and lacks the strength of the silky feather, wearing out by the time the long races, when flying efficiency is needed most. Dry feathers lack the waterproofing qualities of the oil laden silky feather and flying therefore becomes more difficult in wet weather. The feathers of the racing pigeon in top form are tight and silky. The feathers covering the body further improve the aerodynamics. These contour feathers of the body and the cover over the wing and tail feathers of the bird in top form overlap each other very tightly to create a very smooth surface. We describe such a bird as having "tight" feather. During flight this very tight feather allows the moving air to flow smoothly and quickly over the body and wing surfaces in what we call "streamlines". "Streamlining" gives "lift" to the flying pigeon and is one of the reasons why it can fly for sustained periods without tiring. For whatever reason (health or breeding), poor quality feathers fail to form the tight smooth surface required for "streamlining" and efficient flight. When the surface is not perfectly smooth the air does not flow smoothly across the surface and creates air eddies and bubbles of turbulence. Turbulence has the effect of slowing the airflow over the wing and body surfaces that increases the "drag" or "resistance" and reduces the "lift". Therefore the bird with poor feathers flies slowly and requires more effort to stay aloft. The end result is a bird that tires sooner. A good feather is essential for racing performance because it is the basis of "lift". Now can some one enlighten me how any one can get that from treating with …? O.K. a drop of bleach in the drinker etc. Indeed a poorly and even a sick bird can be 'Doctored' and given much to make it nigh win in the show pen … lasts only as long as the substance inside it though … So do it again, and again etc. I doubt it makes a winning bird though in a race. Had a club mate - On the other hand - that was sent a hen bird from a very good, and knowledgeable fancier who had a good read at the time every week in the BHW. Well to say he was disappointed is an understatement. He could help it he said. I had to phone him and tell it how disappointed he was etc. He told him 'Fly! Fly, it would have a job to reach the top shelve'! Reply was 'It's not suppose to be a flyer, BUT a good breeding hen'! then went on to explain that the blood / genes inbred to the best, and were absolutely superb for BREEDING only. So as I often say, Once inbred, then outcross for the vigour and racing. O.K. a very small percentage breed winners, BUT then it is in reality only a very small percentage that do!

Antibiotics Antibiotics are poisons that work by building up to a certain concentration in the blood and once they reach the correct concentration, they become toxic to the bacteria (and other things) that they are intended to treat. They do not address the problem until they reach the required toxic level of concentration in the blood stream and this takes time. That is why the doctor always insists that patients take the full prescription at the time prescribed. The correct concentration of the drug in the blood has to be reached and then maintained to eliminate the disease causing bacteria. Antibiotics such as tylan, doxicycline and most of the other antibiotics used by pigeon fanciers are designed to reach the target level of concentration in the blood only after several doses and after two or three days of scheduled use. Giving them one day, say Sunday, after returning from a race is useless. The treatment adds nothing of value because one dose is inadequate to reach blood concentrations anywhere near what would be lethal to any disease-causing organism. The only benefit of abusing antibiotics in this way is purely psychological on the part of the fancier. It makes the fancier feel good, not the bird. What it does is build the resistance of the disease causing organisms by chronic under dosing and encourages the government food and drug watchdogs to push for bans on the sale of these antibiotics without medical supervision. Abusing antibiotics is more serious than most of the other silly things that we pigeon fanciers constantly do to make us feel like we are increasing our chances of winning. A misconotion. This is because this type of abuse can actually pose a threat to human health LET ALONE pigeons etc.. The good effective drugs get banned or become less effective as a result and we only have ourselves to blame. As a thumb rule, regular strength tetracycline antibiotics like Terramycin are used for pigeons at 4 level teaspoons per 4 litres of water for 7-14 days, and Terramycin concentrate powder is used at 2 teaspoons per 4 litres for the same treatment period - so it's important to read the label to know the strength of product you've bought. As Hal says, the use of a small amount of citric acid (from lemons) - or apple cider vinegar - added to these solutions aids immensely in the absorption of this class of antibiotic across the intestinal wall and into blood vessels for distribution throughout the body. In chickens, erythromycin (commercial name: Gallimycin) is very useful in dealing with Mycoplasma species that are part of a respiratory problem. It is much less useful in pigeons since their crop bacteria destroy it readily (they destroy chloramphenicol too) so it is hard to get a good treatment level of either of these drugs into the bloodstream. Injection of chloramphenicol by needle and syringe gets around this problem. Gord. Oxfendazole is a member of the benz-i-mi-da-zole family which is a large chemical family used to treat worm and fluke infections. However, there is widespread development of resistance and their use is decreasing. They have broad activity against roundworms and a wide safety margin. There are several: mebendazole, flubendazole, fenbendazole, oxfendazole, oxibendazole, albendazole, etc.. The most effective of the group are those with the longest life in the body - such as oxfendazole, fenbendazole, albendazole, because they are not rapidly metabolized to inactive products. Effective concentrations are maintained for an extended period in the plasma and gut. Mebendazole, flubendazole, and fenbendazole are effective against worms in the digestive and respiratory tracts of birds. Fenbendazole (commercial name: Panacur) is about 80-100% effective against roundworms but should be avoided because it can easily cause feather abnormalities in overdose. Other wormers: Ivermectin (Ivomec, Eqvalen): Broad spectrum wormer, a member of the avermectin family. Effective against roundworms, hairworms and stomach wall worms. Dose: 500 -1000 mg per bird. Can be dosed in the drinking water, but the efficacy of this method is debatable. The surest way is to treat the pigeons individually. 1-2 drops by mouth of Ivomec is the correct dose. The higher dosage is needed to treat roundworms and, for some reason, even this is occasionally ineffective. New generation avermectins such as Abamectin may be more effective. Abamectin is a relatively new product and is applied as drops to the skin; it is highly effective against hairworms and roundworms as well as external parasites such as lice and mites. It is currently available in Europe. Moxidectin: A member of the Milbemycin family, Moxidectin is a highly effective product that provides prolonged protection against re-infestation, effective against hairworms, roundworms and external parasites. It seems to be a relatively safe product that is used in the water and can be given during the breeding, moulting and racing seasons. Levamisole (Tramisol, Levasol, Ripercol): Good against roundworms (70-90% effective), but usually fails when used to treat threadworms or stomach wall worms. Dose: 1 to 1.5 grams per gallon for 1-2 days. NOTE: This dosage often causes some pigeons to vomit. This drug is an immune stimulant even at lower dosages. Piperazine: Effective against roundworms only, and only 60-80% effective here. Dose: 15 mg per bird (300 mg per gallon) for 2 days. It is best to avoid using piperazine. Praziquantel (Droncit): Excellent against tapeworms and flukes. Dose: 6 mg per pigeon once (1/4 of a cat-size Droncit tablet). Pyrantel Pamoate: Excellent against roundworms - 80 to 100% effective. Dose: 1-2 mg per pigeon – 75 mg per gallon for 1-2 days. Repeat in 3 weeks. Hope this helps a bit.

Marvellously cheap too.The most common cause of death among small children at the turn of the twentieth century used to be dehydration caused by diarrhea. Professor Ernst Moro, a paediatrician, found that he could lower the death rate dramatically about 1908 by feeding the children a simple carrot soup and this recipe became the standard regimen until the development of antibiotics at about 1940. By far the major cause of diarrhea is an infection by micro-organisms that multiply in the intestines and excrete various toxins. This scenario causes an increase in intestinal motility and massive excretion of semi-digested food and fluids. Dr. Moro had no idea why this simple soup was so beneficial. It took modern science to uncover the secret: Various pathogenic micro-organisms attach to receptors on the intestinal wall. The preparation of the carrot soup splits the sugars present in the carrots into very small oligosaccharides which in turn are very similar to the intestinal receptors. The pathogens attach to these oligo-saccharides and are safely excreted before they can cause any problems. Although no longer used against diarrhoea in children this soup finds application against diarrhoea in various livestock and chicken. It may be beneficial to prevent "young bird sickness" and even treat it in its very early stages. It may also be used again against infections by antibiotic resistant micro-organisms. Recipe for 40 pigeons: 1 kg diced carrots 2.5 l water 3 tsp. salt Let the above simmer for 1.5 hrs. (this time is important) and divide the liquid into 3 equal portions. Use one portion in the drinker (mixed with the appropriate amount of water) for 3 consecutive days. Should the birds already be sick it may be best to feed just some rolled oats for a few days instead of grain that may be too hard to digest. I used to ALWAYS have some fresh onions in the loft. In 1919 when the flu killed 40 million people there was this Doctor that visited the many farmers to see if he could help them combat the flu... Many of the farmers and their families had contracted it and many died. The doctor came upon this one farmer and to his surprise, everyone was very healthy. When the doctor asked what the farmer was doing that was different the wife replied that she had placed an unpeeled onion in a dish in the rooms of the home, (probably only two rooms back then). The doctor couldn't believe it and asked if he could have one of the onions and place it under the microscope. She gave him one and when he did this, he did find the flu virus in the onion. It obviously absorbed the bacteria, therefore, keeping the family healthy. Now, I heard this story from my hairdresser. She said that several years ago, many of her employees were coming down with the flu, and so were many of her customers. The next year she placed several bowls with onions around in her shop. To her surprise, none of her staff got sick. It must work. Try it and see what happens. We did it last year and we never got the flu. Now there is a P. S. to this for I sent it to a friend in Oregon who regularly contributes material to me on health issues. She replied with this most interesting experience about onions: Thanks for the reminder. I don't know about the farmer's story... but, I do know that I contacted pneumonia, and, needless to say, I was very ill. I came across an article that said to cut both ends off an onion put it into an empty jar, and place the jar next to the sick patient at night. It said the onion would be black in the morning from the germs...sure enough it happened just like that...the onion was a mess and I began to feel better. Another thing I read in the article was that onions and garlic placed around the room saved many from the black plague years ago. They have powerful antibacterial, antiseptic properties. This is the other note. Lots of times when we have stomach problems we don't know what to blame. Maybe it's the onions that are to blame. Onions absorb bacteria is the reason they are so good at preventing us from getting colds and flu and is the very reason we shouldn't eat an onion that has been sitting for a time after it has been cut open. LEFT OVER ONIONS ARE POISONOUS! I had the wonderful privilege of touring Mullins Food Products, Makers of mayonnaise. Questions about food poisoning came up, and I wanted to share what I learned from a chemist. Ed, who was our tour guide, is a food chemistry whiz. During the tour, someone asked if we really needed to worry about mayonnaise. People are always worried that mayonnaise will spoil. Ed's answer will surprise you. Ed said that all commercially-made mayo is completely safe. "It doesn't even have to be refrigerated. No harm in refrigerating it, but it's not really necessary." He explained that the pH in mayonnaise is set at a point that bacteria could not survive in that environment. He then talked about the summer picnic, with the bowl of potato salad sitting on the table, and how everyone blames the mayonnaise when someone gets sick. Ed says that, when food poisoning is reported, the first thing the officials look for is when the 'victim' last ate ONIONS and where those onions came from (in the potato salad?). Ed says it's not the mayonnaise (as long as it's not home made mayo) that spoils in the outdoors. It's probably the ONIONS, and if not the onions, it's the POTATOES. He explained onions are a huge magnet for bacteria, especially uncooked onions. You should never plan to keep a portion of a sliced onion.. He says it's not even safe if you put it in a zip-lock bag and put it in your refrigerator. It's already contaminated enough just by being cut open and out for a bit, that it can be a danger to you (and doubly watch out for those onions you put in your hot dogs at the baseball park!). Ed says if you take the leftover onion and cook it like crazy you'll probably be okay, but if you slice that leftover onion and put on your sandwich, you're asking for trouble. Both the onions and the moist potato in a potato salad, will attract and grow bacteria faster than any commercial mayonnaise will even begin to break down. Also, dogs should never eat onions. Their stomachs cannot metabolize onions. Please remember it is dangerous to cut an onion and try to use it to cook the next day, it becomes highly poisonous for even a single night and creates toxic bacteria which may cause adverse stomach infections because of excess bile secretions and even food poisoning

Another: Here is the link to the track of today's exercise of my youngsters. It's a rainy, windy and cold day. Twice they flew to Namao Ridge and then returned. I have never trained them that way. The funny thing is that that's where I used to live in the late 70's and early eighties. https://skyleader.com.tw/share/20180901hsM8PY. Not mine. Then These units, although weighing about 4 grams, are fastened to the band and do bother the bird enough to be a hindrance. There are some birds in the advertisement of Skyleader that show the track of a pigeon that won a race but those couple of races were marked with a good tailwind. Even in those races were a few other birds with a GPS unit that deviated quite remarkably from a straight line home and that was my experience during training tosses also. There seams to be something that bothers the bird wearing it when the going gets tough. I toss my birds now and rarely see a bird on the loft when I get home. Should there be one I know that something is not right with it as the others were home and continued flying. So I wanted to find out where they go after a toss. On that day I couldn't toss and decided to slip on one of these GPS units and that is what produced the track linked to above. I used the Sky Tracker GPS units heavily in my early young bird training this spring and summer. I got some fascinating data, but I concluded the same thing. The units cause the birds trouble. As a result, I discontinued their use. Once the races are over, I plan on doing some more work with the trackers. They are proving everything we thought we knew about homing and navigation needs a re-think. Mike Hi Jeff I have studied at least 100 tracks over three years from all over the world, so I am starting to see some reliable patterns. My own training this year from 30 miles and in and Rick Fyfe's training from 80 to 100 miles north of Lake Ontario and a local loft that raced the same two tracked birds for the entire OB program have proved very enlightening. Some to the trends I am noticing are that the same bird never seems to fly the same route twice. Birds rarely deviate too far off the line to home but when they are late it is because they have landed. They 100% do not follow rivers, roads or anything else for any extended time. They do not seem to leave the release site together (individual birds are following their own line right from release i.e. no big flocks heading in the general direction of home). They do not have a constant cruising speed, changing from 600 m/m to 1800 and even 1900 m/m all the way down. They do not speed up as they near home. Their lines do not get straighter as they get near home. Sometimes they seem to have no problem crossing large water bodies and sometimes they seem to avoid flying over water bodies (the same birds flying the same course on different days). The birds that score near the top of the results are the ones that flew the straightest, not the fastest. Those are trends I have noticed so far. Mike

Agreed. Now I feel that we have 2 or 3 different era's that have had their own hassles with different ailments etc. So I'll kick off if I may and state a couple of facts. Many won't agree very likely, some will, BUT all need to have a thought. Not only what to do, or not, nor also how, but why! Cancer was more than a illogical rusty nail in the drinker … though many swore it gave their birds the extra all important iron. So firstly it was often solved, or believable with a match and hence the Sulphur! Logical and time was when a match was put in their mouths and twirled and got a lot of canker wrapped around. Now most birds in them days still flew the program for a few years, no sweat. However, there are 32 or so different strains now. Fact. It is also very prevalent of over coming a treatment if used more than 2 - 3 times tops. So though the birds don't show much signs they may well have what is a deep rooted canker, so very, very hard to shift. Indeed very many other illnesses are blamed, but not canker! We will and do hear regularly 'Weer I use ************* EVERY YEAR even TWO OR THREE TIMES! Works well for me, that's for sure....' YOU ARE VERY LIKELY, or there is a great possibility you are FEEDING IT! Enhancing it's strength! Was a good fancier on here who sadly has gone, but his son(s) are still on here. They know what I am about to say. First I heard about this was John Bellerby, or Frank Tasker first, then John Bellerby who had problems with a bird that had gone off colour big time. He told frask Tasker, who also... anoter couple of National winner also told me the Same. Then a Vet writing for the rags was a friend of the dad of those two told him the same. Namely Ron ..... Only way to cure it is a full strength of Baytril and a full strength 'Ron's canker cure is the same!. Mix and given fresh for 5 days. John was 1st or 2nd National 3 weeks later with that bird! Fact So that's the how... many won't agree etc. Now the 'Why has canker, which is a yeast, like the Ladies 'Thrush' get so strong. Comercialism then Comercialism spread and strengthened it. No I don't for a moment believe a match will solve it. Nystain maybe. Nystatin mixed with Baytrill most likely. Often smile when I hear see the wonders of Brewers Yeast and wonder

First pint on me Novo10.

Never said he wasn't, nor implied as such! (I just suggested more than what he gives me credit for … Oh I know I shouldn't, I should take the jibe and shut up. Then they will spout 'He soon shut up eh lol... No way, never have, nor hopefully ever will!). So I just took the view of the overplayed adage when one doesn't like a post, are something said, but are struggling to put another side to the equation. ( Maybe they are worried that they are wrong? or I am right lol)Then stupid and classless saying then of 'Just WHAT have you done. As if it is a put me down etc. Next, it is probably 'put up Or Shut up' eh! A. WHAT! B. haven't you got anything to offer. Care or is one offering. Maybe Novo10 is a class act. I never said he wasn't. Just 'Tongue in cheek reply. Then another one in reply to Jakie. Self-praise is no praise, and I know a swallow doesn't make a summer... But I've had many swallows and set many 'Firsts in many regards. Not only in this sport either. But I am content. No wish, nor ever wanted a pat on the back. I know what I've achieved etc. Mind didn't think they would sob in their drink lol. A complete idiot as a top dog of Tesco's enlightened me once said 'We spend £Millions on Market research … But anybody, even an idiot can walk into the store and say 'Why don't you do such and such, or so and so'? And we ashamedly say 'Why didn't I think of that! Also in sports, tell me how many champions make good trainers IN all sports. Angelo Dundee never put a glove on like so many others... Now to end this, the jibe of putting off others etc. as I was accused of... and I apologise too, is that they are doing precisely what I'm being accused of doing! Just think of how many may have been, or are reading this. And saying 'If that is how they treat one (Like Roly is lol) do they think I am going to post! I should cocoa.

some sense. http://www.pigeontracker.com/

LOL Jakie so you implying how little Novo10 knows then! :emoticon-0136-giggle: I presume you know him then!

True greenlands … a lot by treating willy - nilly. Conned by selling concern's. Plus too close breeding hammered their' constitutions and healthy. Breeding from culls from over bred incests also hammers their' natural traits … like Homing ability. J.M.O.

Often believe that - and it is true, that the birds constitution has been shot to pieces. Birds are / and certainly haven't improved a jot over the last 40 years. Just declined.

Personally I say Yes that they do. The least disturbance and any stresses hinders it I believe. Separating causes some distress.

A darn sight more than you Novo10. As for a 'Know it all' there isn't one in the whole of this game. However I speak from my, and other peoples experiences and happening. From very many actual know a lot! Basically 'Truth'. So yes, to much I do hold the badge, (beginners lol) as been there seen it and done it with many others. Plus with a good helping of common sense. Made the mistakes, seen other's too. But a wise man Novo10 learns from others mistakes … A fool by his own …. Hence common sense etc. Been around pigeons and folks for m65 years... And yes many see in a minute what others won't, don't see in a life time. As for being shot down Buff, I'm very much against that, always have been and spouted as such many times … But if some one wants to take a part of a post and miss represent it, make it out to be what it is, so be it! But if pointing such trollop at me, Don't! I far from that.

''' are looking for reasons to jab / ORAL' is what I asked! Big Pete. I inferred that it sound like you was looking REASONS to treat your birds and what for. Simple. Implying If you don't know What then you obviously don't need to be looking! Further to save money on dishing out for unnecessary treatments. Now if one asked what does one tend to treat in the close season and why, then some would maybe say. Point taken Joe_b … Mind you are also wrong implying I Know it all I DO lol. Seriously though Joe_b If I've offended you I am sorry and apologise whole heartedly. I also stand corrected Big Pete and Joe_b

Best secret... Keep away from treatments as far as possible!

Nearest to that would be from Ireland St. Malo I'd assertain. But winning location would still be decided by 'Wind'.

Well Joe seems that you are looking for reasons to jab / ORAL oral needless costs into the poor birds regardless. Certainly, if you ask that question it would appear you have no idea what and why!. Besides if you have to ask as such it is most likely that they don't need a treatment to interfere with a balanced system of theirs.

Good post Tony.

Won't name names of course, nor where about or 'Whom'. Plus I'm not avocating it, or endorsing it! Any way It came to my attention - not my area either, in fact a 100 miles away. - A certain fellow came to show, he was capable of clearing a certain area of Raptures etc. Was a couple of draw backs though. One - Obviously- no one else except the go between would know whom he was. Makes perfect sense in reality, and B. When! Again obvious why. It was explain that the guy was constantly on the move etc. Again with good reason.Cost would be £400. So the 30 members had to cough up £400. £15 EACH. First off all was in favour! Within a week moans arose. Will he do it? Can it be done? What if we never see an improvement? Does he have references?! Well where does he actually live! Could you believe it! and much more. Was just 2, and a maybe that would chance the £15! Less than most bags of feed. It was decided that they would wait! That someone else, or something different would come along FREE! Now there they are wishing, and arguing, whether they should have chanced the £15! Now most would / will say 'Great! I'd give the £15 no doubt about it! etc. I say look in the mirror, the same would happen in most cases. Yes apparently a few have benefitted, took the chance of losing £15 ... Indeed othet clubs in the area would also automatically have benifitted ... That was another argument that THEY too should pay so much too... I'd wager even at a fiver it would be turned down! A fellow on here, no names obviously, smailes when reading these topics! He doesn't race pigeons, but has Roller or such. Percys favourite apparently. Why does he and co smile? I/ we don't have a problem of Percy and never have. Because he says, they are sorted as soon as they come. Nothing said, never a brag, but a peaceful goings on in the main! Like I say only ever heard of two Peregrines here about. Goshawks a couple peeing some off and the S/H. sO WE ARE LUCKY OR BLESSED. I still say if many years back, before the problem got to large, Bilco was right. But had as much chance then as now of one looking after their own interest. But then that's another topic.

philg50 simple answer is Nothing. All say and moan about Losses for example... None hardly will even entertain a program change - rather moan I guess. Then the soothsayer spouts 'It won't work' or anything a long as it doesn't mean a change, a hick cup to what they have always done... and will carry on doing so regardless. Fact is Y/b losses get worse every year. We can / could help that! B.O.P. problem harder for sure. But surely a couple of things can be changed and tried. Rotation of Lib sites, especially where the Percy queues up to have fun showing it's young how to slaughter our so called beloved pigeons. Later breeding and start of racing... still would get 24 races plus nationals! What more do the so called bird lover want?! Most are after a needless march or frightened a club mate will get one. Truth is in reality that doesn't happen, it's all in the mind. Put old birds on the 'Dark System... or light! Training days not really needed, but there are gaps where Percy isn't so active. Train in the rain for instance if you must train. It would make a better and hardier pigeon and breed more genuine pigeons that's for sure. No! Let's stay as we are and wait for some one else to do something THAT DOESN'T entail US doing anything. I should co -co..

Nothing to LOSE, every thing to gain. One step is needed to be taken for a trip of a thousand miles.... If we really love our Birds!