walterbmasson Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 What does the majority of fanciers think about fairness regarding the hours of darkness for a start in 1976 the hours of darkness was 6 hours am 4:45am to 10:45pm in that year there were three fantastic S.N.F.C winners into one club in Fraserburgh invitation Fc 1st open 622mls nearly 6,000 birds 11th open 663mls 7,000+ birds and 54th open 724mls Nantes all 1st sect winners the 11th open bird was timed at 11pm in pitch dark i came away from Wilson nobles and you would have said it was impossible to get a bird. But Wilson timed at 11pm. The following year there was another bird clocked in after the hours of darkness at johns haven to Eddie Mann so what happend the following year. I am sure it was in 1978 some fanciers had this fantastic brain wave to reduce the hours of darkness to 5 1/2 just incase there was any more fantastic performances in the dark there was one in 1976 one in 1977. these same fanciers that got together to reduce the hours of darkness that is 32 years ago i would like them to name how many more have made it home in pitch dark ! now i would like to know the difference of 4:30 in the morning in France by 4:30 in the north of Scotland Fraserburgh the birds have to rise at 4:30 but they cannot be liberated at 4:30 i don’t expect them to be liberated at 4:30 but birds in the national don’t have all to fly 480mls s all the way up the birds are getting more tired which is commonsense and the birds that has to go to the bitter 600 to 700mls away up in Fraserburgh ,Elgin, Banff and Buckie etc there not being allowed to complete there destination because the birds are not let up early enough why not have a north section fancier as one of the race controllers, i used to land herring in the late 1970 early 1980 in France ST.Malo and i can assure any fanciers 5am to 5:30 there is no excuse to keep these birds in the baskets any longer all members pay there fees and should be treated the same give all the birds the benefit of the doubt, and a gesture which should be adhered to in the gold cup. If the birds can’t get up as early as possible make it a mid day liberation so all birds has the same chance to win the race come on lads let commonsense prevail to all in the sport of racing pidgeons . Walter B Masson
Guest Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 The difference between 10-45 pm and 4-30am is less than a minute and birds timed before 12 midnight are given 10-45 and after are given 4-30 but there is still only a min between
robbiedoo. Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 i think what walter means is if the birds are liberated 5am we up north have a chance of getting a day bird as well as the guys in the borders where as if the lib time was 9am we would have no chance of 1 on the day.a midday lib would also more or less the same as 5am lib its putting everybody on even keel making it a fair national good point
Guest Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 yes i agree with that but its not allways possible for the early lib if you remember the times the lib was 1pm that seemed to even it out as well with no day birds all the convoy all had to sit down and get up in the morning very hard to get it completly fair for all and also keep the wellfare of the birds as first concern
Guest Gareth Rankin Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 What does the majority of fanciers think about fairness regarding the hours of darkness for a start in 1976 the hours of darkness was 6 hours am 4:45am to 10:45pm in that year there were three fantastic S.N.F.C winners into one club in Fraserburgh invitation Fc 1st open 622mls nearly 6,000 birds 11th open 663mls 7,000+ birds and 54th open 724mls Nantes all 1st sect winners the 11th open bird was timed at 11pm in pitch dark i came away from Wilson nobles and you would have said it was impossible to get a bird. But Wilson timed at 11pm. The following year there was another bird clocked in after the hours of darkness at johns haven to Eddie Mann so what happend the following year. I am sure it was in 1978 some fanciers had this fantastic brain wave to reduce the hours of darkness to 5 1/2 just incase there was any more fantastic performances in the dark there was one in 1976 one in 1977. these same fanciers that got together to reduce the hours of darkness that is 32 years ago i would like them to name how many more have made it home in pitch dark ! now i would like to know the difference of 4:30 in the morning in France by 4:30 in the north of Scotland Fraserburgh the birds have to rise at 4:30 but they cannot be liberated at 4:30 i don’t expect them to be liberated at 4:30 but birds in the national don’t have all to fly 480mls s all the way up the birds are getting more tired which is commonsense and the birds that has to go to the bitter 600 to 700mls away up in Fraserburgh ,Elgin, Banff and Buckie etc there not being allowed to complete there destination because the birds are not let up early enough why not have a north section fancier as one of the race controllers, i used to land herring in the late 1970 early 1980 in France ST.Malo and i can assure any fanciers 5am to 5:30 there is no excuse to keep these birds in the baskets any longer all members pay there fees and should be treated the same give all the birds the benefit of the doubt, and a gesture which should be adhered to in the gold cup. If the birds can’t get up as early as possible make it a mid day liberation so all birds has the same chance to win the race come on lads let commonsense prevail to all in the sport of racing pidgeons . Walter B Masson I'm quite sure the actual year that the hours of darkness was changed was around the 1990 mark it was proposed by the Late Andrew Deans of Bothwell and i am quite sure that it may have been my father that seconded him. The reason why Andrew wanted it changed was because at that time there pigeons flying past the close of the race and up to 23.00 and beyond. I dont know what is like up there in Aberdeen in the morning but i am quite sure that pigeons are more than capable of flying early as that is were the sun rises first. I remember Andrew quoting that it was only a matter of time before a fancier would lose out winning his section because he would time at 22.44 race closing at 22.45 and the fancier flying 100 yards further than him would time at at 04.40 with race opening at 04.45, now i believe that if the hours had not been changed the fancier timing the pigeon in the shift would loose out to the fancier timing on the second day, is that fair???. I do appreciate that there is a chance that someone will now not win a national because of the change in hours but there is more of a chance that the wrong pigeon would have won his section by not changing the hours. Agree to an extent about the midday liberations especially at the kings cup and Tours. Gareth
sammy Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 that it was only a matter of time before a fancier would lose out winning his section because he would time at 22.44 race closing at 22.45 and the fancier flying 100 yards further than him would time at at 04.40 with race opening at 04.45,did this not happen to the late jackie bunch getting beat into second spot in the section by anderson and brown of kirkintilloch who timed early morning cant remember the exact times involved but quite sure something to this effect happened
Guest Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 but what we need to remember the over fly still counts so the bird in the morning must have flowan further and if that bird was going to jackie,s loft might well have made it on the day as well sammy so it would have to be very close to make any difference as the race is closed at 10-45 and opened at 4-30 it is still less than a minute we all know we have lost club races with the trap thats what makes our sport so great
Chris Little Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 I can remember on a national night being on the phone to a Fife fancier, it was darkness yet it was still light at his end ??)
Guest Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 the northern lights spoke to a dundee fancier many years ago who reported 1 of my birds when i went to get it he told me they get lots of central scotland birds up there and his thinking was that they fly to-wards the light up north when its darker in south/central
Guest Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 the northern lights spoke to a dundee fancier many years ago who reported 1 of my birds when i went to get it he told me they get lots of central scotland birds up there and his thinking was that they fly to-wards the light up north when its darker in south/central he must of been drunk, ;D we'v still got gas lamps up here in the streets .
Guest Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 yes he said that about your end of dundee clocky lol
Guest Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 yes he said that about your end of dundee clocky lol all your birds are on darkness. ;D
walterbmasson Posted January 10, 2009 Author Report Posted January 10, 2009 Your maybe right Gareth about 1990 but i am certain it was after the Eddie Mann bird which to me should have been given the bird more credit for coming so late at night! also Frank i know it’s not possible to please everybody all i am getting at is if the conditions are right with the sun on the baskets don’t hold back and keep the longest flying birds out when you at least see if they can do it on the night ! Robbie Doo that is exactly what i am getting at but it’s not happening and its time there was a change for the better for our birds after the first drop 480mls another race to go nearly 200mls. WalterBMasson
Guest Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 Your maybe right Gareth about 1990 but i am certain it was after the Eddie Mann bird which to me should have been given the bird more credit for coming so late at night! also Frank i know it’s not possible to please everybody all i am getting at is if the conditions are right with the sun on the baskets don’t hold back and keep the longest flying birds out when you at least see if they can do it on the night ! Robbie Doo that is exactly what i am getting at but it’s not happening and its time there was a change for the better for our birds after the first drop 480mls another race to go nearly 200mls. WalterBMasson i think you have a point i can remember lots of times thinking why they were waiting but having been a race controller for a short time at fed level its a job that gets allot of stick doesnt matter what way the go they cant get it right for getting it wrong
blackswan Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 blackswan says give me a bird home on the day every time good flying lads.
walterbmasson Posted January 10, 2009 Author Report Posted January 10, 2009 frankdooman i can assure you being a race controller now you have a lot of help with all the computers with all the different weather forcasts and if you get a chance get them into the skys early at distance racing so they have the skys to them selves to get on there way for a good start rember the old saying the early bird has a chance of getting home----------------]
midnight_son Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 Hours of darkness can be tinkered with here and there but there will always be an element of luck involved. Some nights its beautiful and clear and the birds can fly on into the hours of darkness. Other nights it's dull and cold or drizzling and the birds are down half an hour before the race officially closes - there is no way of making it 100% fair to everyone on any given day. One thing that really worries me greatly is this talk of having midday liberations as the norm. To me that is not what distance racing is about, the birds should be up as early as possible to allow a full days flying and pigeons home on the day or at dawn the 2nd day. The greatest thing in pigeon racing is timing a pigeon that has flown 14,15,16, 17 hours on the wing and has made it on the day. If we stop valuing those kind of performances then long distance racing is dead. It should be imperative to bring the stamina of the distance birds into play. If we start encouraging 2 part races where they fly 8-10 hours on day 1 and then finish off another 3-5 hours in the 2nd day then it strips away the advantage of the proper distance birds and I don't agree with that. Any number of birds are capable of flying 10 hours then getting up on day 2 and doing another few to get home but only the best of distance birds (and thats what these 500 mile plus races are held for) can do all that flying in one shift. Midday liberations also add a lot more variables to the result, the weather conditions can change overnight, the hours of darkness become even more of a farce because when it gets to 11pm the birds are still fresh and will fly on into the night if conditions are suitable. At least if they have been flying since 6am they will be dropping by 11pm through sheer tiredness so the hours of darkness can be estimated a bit more accurately. What if the birds are liberated at 1pm and your bird flys 10 hours and covers 400 miles on the first day. Your opponent's bird only does 320 miles on the first day but on the 2nd morning his bird wakes up in beautiful weather and is up and away at first light. Meanwhile your bird that was well in front and would have beaten the other bird comfortably in a one day race wakes up in mucky weather the 2nd morning and can't move on. The result between those 2 pigeons could be completely altered due to a pot luck variable that doesn't exist if you have a 1 day race. Midday/afternoon liberations should only be used as an absolute last resort when we are faced with no chance of a liberation in the following few days and we need to get them up. If they can't be liberated early then they should wait until the next day and go early as possible and only if the next couple of days are a write off should we consider a lunchtime liberation.
andy Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 I'm quite sure the actual year that the hours of darkness was changed was around the 1990 mark it was proposed by the Late Andrew Deans of Bothwell and i am quite sure that it may have been my father that seconded him. The reason why Andrew wanted it changed was because at that time there pigeons flying past the close of the race and up to 23.00 and beyond. I dont know what is like up there in Aberdeen in the morning but i am quite sure that pigeons are more than capable of flying early as that is were the sun rises first. I remember Andrew quoting that it was only a matter of time before a fancier would lose out winning his section because he would time at 22.44 race closing at 22.45 and the fancier flying 100 yards further than him would time at at 04.40 with race opening at 04.45, now i believe that if the hours had not been changed the fancier timing the pigeon in the shift would loose out to the fancier timing on the second day, is that fair???. I do appreciate that there is a chance that someone will now not win a national because of the change in hours but there is more of a chance that the wrong pigeon would have won his section by not changing the hours. Agree to an extent about the midday liberations especially at the kings cup and Tours. Gareth Gareth I can't agree with the mid-day libs from the Kings Cup, although I do agree that the 600+ mile race could be a later than EAP lib due to the fact that the birds more often than not are not expected on the day, unless its a blow home or there's a cheat, like a couple of years ago, but 530-560miles should be day races.
andy Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 What does the majority of fanciers think about fairness regarding the hours of darkness for a start in 1976 the hours of darkness was 6 hours am 4:45am to 10:45pm in that year there were three fantastic S.N.F.C winners into one club in Fraserburgh invitation Fc 1st open 622mls nearly 6,000 birds 11th open 663mls 7,000+ birds and 54th open 724mls Nantes all 1st sect winners the 11th open bird was timed at 11pm in pitch dark i came away from Wilson nobles and you would have said it was impossible to get a bird. But Wilson timed at 11pm. The following year there was another bird clocked in after the hours of darkness at johns haven to Eddie Mann so what happend the following year. I am sure it was in 1978 some fanciers had this fantastic brain wave to reduce the hours of darkness to 5 1/2 just incase there was any more fantastic performances in the dark there was one in 1976 one in 1977. these same fanciers that got together to reduce the hours of darkness that is 32 years ago i would like them to name how many more have made it home in pitch dark ! now i would like to know the difference of 4:30 in the morning in France by 4:30 in the north of Scotland Fraserburgh the birds have to rise at 4:30 but they cannot be liberated at 4:30 i don’t expect them to be liberated at 4:30 but birds in the national don’t have all to fly 480mls s all the way up the birds are getting more tired which is commonsense and the birds that has to go to the bitter 600 to 700mls away up in Fraserburgh ,Elgin, Banff and Buckie etc there not being allowed to complete there destination because the birds are not let up early enough why not have a north section fancier as one of the race controllers, i used to land herring in the late 1970 early 1980 in France ST.Malo and i can assure any fanciers 5am to 5:30 there is no excuse to keep these birds in the baskets any longer all members pay there fees and should be treated the same give all the birds the benefit of the doubt, and a gesture which should be adhered to in the gold cup. If the birds can’t get up as early as possible make it a mid day liberation so all birds has the same chance to win the race come on lads let commonsense prevail to all in the sport of racing pidgeons . Walter B Masson Walter, You must be on another planet up there. Do you honestly think last years fantastic Kings Cup Winner bedded down at 2245 hours and got up next day to win the race?
andy Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 ur bang on andy , Your right Jock, its no often I'm wrong LOL
walterbmasson Posted January 10, 2009 Author Report Posted January 10, 2009 frankdooman if its only one minute between 10.45pm 4.45am and 4.30am 11pmwhy change to me its 30min yes frank your right about the northern lights but once you pass aberdeen the birds are flying into complete darkness and with 40 miles to fly iam very sure a lot of birds meet there waterloo at this stage of race come up any time and witness for your self even before 10,30pm there are no birds in the sky if the shoe was on the other foot something would have been done about it The reason i put this post being a NATIONAL for the whole of SCOTLAND NO BOADY will ever get it right but surly being sportmen let the race start as fairley as possible and get all of the convoy a chance of winning the greatest prise in pigeons THE GOLD CUP SOLET THE BIRDS UP AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE IF THE CONDITIONS ARE RIGHT AS PER RULE YOURS IN THE SPORT
Guest Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 andy i agree with you regarding the midday libs what i was trying to say was there have been a couple of situations when the birds have been in the basket for over 4 days and the forecast is bad for the chanell for early libs for the next 4 days then a midday lib even at an early stage should be considered rather than wait 6/7 days and still have to take a chance as for the hrs of darkness it doesnt matter when the race stops and starts its still within the same minute and yes i believe some birds fly well into the night and are also up and flying long before 4-30 am so that should help the further flying members yes i know all the reports available to the race controllers but we dont shoot the weather men we do our race rollers when things go wrong i have allready agreed with you walter that in my oppinion they sometime think too hard before libs but most air on the safe side
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