thunderboult Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Am I the only one (shrug) no , i've got a couple, 5 in fact . sometimes people can't afford to buy birds when they're in their prime, so when you get them older it is a bit of a risk but they're normally cheaper and it's the blood your after. 1 cock i bought at blackpool this year 11yr old but he handled great looked a cracker and has bred some top birds for his previous owner, he would have been out of my price range in his prime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotrod Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 budgie i agree with you ,im national minded so if i breed 100 youngsters and get 2 good ones ,i mean 2 to score at national level then im doing not bad not brilliant most will never get any to score .I think there is good birds in loft then theres top birds its these birds im looking for.AS for older stock needle in haystack springs to mind give me youngsters out of top birds anytime/or old at clearance sales Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael J Burden Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 I agree with a lot already stated on here. Although some fanciers could not fly a kite, yet buy some very good pigeons every year. These can quickly loose flavour of the month and are up for sale very quickly. Some cannot help themselves and buy and buy and buy and then have far too many stock birds so these come up for sale. Some are just crap flyers and even worse at management and do not breed many off those pairs and in sometimes 1 or 2. They loose these and sell the parents believeing they are rubbish. In reality it is the fancier to blame on many occasions for poor results in racing or breeding. Breeding 2 ybs off a pair once a year generally proves very little. I can see what Budgie is saying too. "Proven stock pair, of such and such breed, bred winners" Like Budgie has stated if these were so good why sell them. Unless you have so many winners being bred by other pairs. I think he is trying to heighlight is the words used in the advertising hype, more so this hype than the birds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gareth Rankin Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 We all judge what we call good pigeons by different means, e.g i would call a good/excellent pigeon one when it has scored at least once or more from long distance which result is only for the a 10% ratio. Now my govering body issues approx 135,000 rings each year and yet there is only at most only 500 pigeons that make the result from long distance races each year in Scotland which equates to less than 0.5%. To make up the percentages to that of Budgie's 2% of good pigeons i will always give the respect to the club/federation pigeons that win races week after week against good birdage but in my judgement I cannot call a pigeon a good/excellent pigeon if it is taking a prize between 2nd and 12th etc flying from 100 miles against for example 200 birds as they are a damm lot easier to find than a pigeon that can secure the passage of racing from 500 + miles.. So given the way I judge what is a good pigeon i would have to agree with Budgie with his percentages on sub-standard/rubbish/sh-te that lofts have. Cheers Gareth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john@formula 1 lofts Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 I have to agree with Budgie in a lot of ways to many people buy a team of birds in bred out of them for 2 or 3 seasons find the best ones then sell the bads ones off to re coup there money. i think this wrong and you are only conning the buyers and giving the origianl breeder a bad name. which is why we do not sell birds that have been bred from as if they are any good i want to keep them and if they are not good enough for me they are not good enough for anyone else either. Having said that i am going to sell one 05 bred race cock at doncaster in a couple of weeks that i have bred 3 y/b's from this year. i do not normaly bred from race birds but he paired with a very good race hen that i wanted to bred from. so i raced 2 from this pair one of which won my section for me. the other one was lost. and the 3rd one was a latebred after racing had finished which i gifted to a very good friend of mine. the reason i am selling him was i moved in april this year and through the birds did well inland the extra night in the basket and the longer distances this cock was going back to the old house first. i did think of putting him to stock but i already have more cocks then hens so have decided to let him go. but just like i have here i will make it plain why he is being sold and this is the only bird we are selling we have bred from. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy_bulger Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 many a fine tune played on an old fiddle in the right hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest slugmonkey Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 I have bred a LOT of old pigeons and can tell you this a bird that is 12+ years old and still filling eggs is a good bird PERIOD these birds will ALWAYS have vitality in the last 6 years I have gotten eggs from 4 birds that were 15 years old or older ( 2 that were 17 years old ) I currently have a cock that is 14 that has thrown 4 race winners and the children are producing as well I had a cock 2 years ago that was 17 I got 2 eggs off of him 1 of which is probably going to be a new foundation hen she brd my 2nd best yb this year I moved her in with my best race cock and expect great things from this pair We bought the " Athlete " from Ganus he hadnt been getting any off of him he sells the babys for 1500 each we agreed if I bred any I would pay him 1500 well we bred 9 off of him and several are top producing birds for us as well as others We got a son of Leo Van Rynes bird " Kaiser " that is owned by Laurie McConnell this bird produced 4 eggs this strain is producing some of our top flyers in the Spring Hill club in Florida it might also be that we paired him to a daughter of " Pinnacle " that won both of the only races she flew we split the babys I have a hen and a cock from this mating Keith Lord gave us his top Grondelier stock cock ( 17 ) this bred with a bird I bought at our club auction that I paid 25 bucks for she was bred from our old Red Fox Jannssens I got 2 eggs one bird got killed I raced the other she was a very mediocre bird but had a great eye she paired so I let her hatch a pair as I stated earlier one of these was my #2 bird this year I have a 14 year old Vandeville bird that we got from Bybee and Sons this bird was bred from our old Vandeville stock that we got from Ben Fichter ( Owned and raced " True Grit " ) this cock has produced 4 race winners as well as the 200 mile speed record ( club ) I LOVE OLD PIGEONS, most guys will not keep a bird that is very old unless it is a spectacular bird so it would stand to reason that these birds usally always throw good birds if for no other reason that a 14+ year old bird will ALWAYS be capable of reaching top form and maintaining it !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogin Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 I have bred a LOT of old pigeons and can tell you this a bird that is 12+ years old and still filling eggs is a good bird PERIOD these birds will ALWAYS have vitality in the last 6 years I have gotten eggs from 4 birds that were 15 years old or older ( 2 that were 17 years old ) I currently have a cock that is 14 that has thrown 4 race winners and the children are producing as well I had a cock 2 years ago that was 17 I got 2 eggs off of him 1 of which is probably going to be a new foundation hen she brd my 2nd best yb this year I moved her in with my best race cock and expect great things from this pair We bought the " Athlete " from Ganus he hadnt been getting any off of him he sells the babys for 1500 each we agreed if I bred any I would pay him 1500 well we bred 9 off of him and several are top producing birds for us as well as others We got a son of Leo Van Rynes bird " Kaiser " that is owned by Laurie McConnell this bird produced 4 eggs this strain is producing some of our top flyers in the Spring Hill club in Florida it might also be that we paired him to a daughter of " Pinnacle " that won both of the only races she flew we split the babys I have a hen and a cock from this mating Keith Lord gave us his top Grondelier stock cock ( 17 ) this bred with a bird I bought at our club auction that I paid 25 bucks for she was bred from our old Red Fox Jannssens I got 2 eggs one bird got killed I raced the other she was a very mediocre bird but had a great eye she paired so I let her hatch a pair as I stated earlier one of these was my #2 bird this year I have a 14 year old Vandeville bird that we got from Bybee and Sons this bird was bred from our old Vandeville stock that we got from Ben Fichter ( Owned and raced " True Grit " ) this cock has produced 4 race winners as well as the 200 mile speed record ( club ) I LOVE OLD PIGEONS, most guys will not keep a bird that is very old unless it is a spectacular bird so it would stand to reason that these birds usally always throw good birds if for no other reason that a 14+ year old bird will ALWAYS be capable of reaching top form and maintaining it !!! your birds must have a very good constatution 10/10 well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Great book published in Belgium in 2005 about the 'National' winners, their' shapes, wieght and sizes etc. etc. distances flew, methods etc. The only not surprising thing is that there is certainly no set mode, all different etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogin Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 i ment to say sluggy i had an old m8 [sAM OWEN] he had birds that were 21&22 years old ,and he an ace at the distance. but saddly he's gone now. :'( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest slugmonkey Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Nogin I belive it there were studys done on fruit flys where they were bred at the end of their life cycles ( 24 hours ) and they found in 3 generations they could double their life expectancy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirky Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Further more I don't pretend to be able to pick that one pigeon from 160, If you know a man that can I'd like to meet him. well i have the uncanny nack of picking them out wish i did not as i never get the birds at sales as the bids go way above my pocket and come away with nothing, once at a clearance sale owner had died and only details on pens was prize cards , i saw a cracking black pied hen and told a mate to go for it, he got it on the opening bid, at the end of sale he got three times what he paid for it, it turned out several of the prize winners were bred out of the hen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just ask me Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 u cant most of the best birds i own no one would have picked them out as young ones pll do like to balance in a pigeon and all the rest tat goes with it but the two most important places where no one can see is in there head and there hart give me a bad looking one with the two of these anyday really the only test is the basket they always look a stunner when u put a few firsts in front of them but for me give me brains and hart over all the eye theories wing theroies balance and the rest i put this post up on another thread few days back think it might help thread too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotrod Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 i think some of you are picking up budgie wrong he,s not saying old birds are rubbish what he IS saying is there are birds being sold just now 7,8,9,10, years old for whatever reason .SO be carefull .IF a friend gives you an old stock bird a loan of is not the same as selling these birds to strangers .There is just to many for sale just now ,all probably well bred , outstanding pedigrees ,as i said before a needle in a haystack? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pompey Mick Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 I wouldn't hesitate in buying an old stock bird as long as it's a Cock. My opinion is that it must have been a decent bird to be kept for that long. I purchased a 10yr Cock Bird many years ago and he filled his eggs till he was 17, breeding decent birds until I lost him off the roof when I moved. (He was reported 6mths later 60mls away) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairman Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Old stock hens are simular to old wives, they are'nt worth a tap when it comes to breeding.It has been clinically proven that the quality of sperm in old cock birds is the same quality as when the bird was a yearling. Unfortunately this is not the case with hen birds the quality of the yolk suffers and also damage to the ovaries with many eggs brittle our unshelled are seldom laid by old hens. What some fanciers try is putting a young hen back to an old cock, the only problem I see with this is that you would have to put the eggs under a foster pair to rear the youngsters from such a pairing due to the cock birds milk not being of the top quality, a condition claimed by many called "silver throat". Many roads lead to rome as they say, and what does for one fancier may hinder another which is what makes this pigeon game so fascinating, the main theme is to enjoy what your doing and only be interested in whats going on inside your own lofts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budgie Posted November 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 Ill end this post as i begun .Take note of all the comments and dont buy pigeons that have left nothing or bred one in ten years and always bear in mind the 98% SH-TE rule and if they were any good thae widnae be selling. ;) Take care and watch your money and all the best in 2009. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverdale Lofts Posted November 25, 2008 Report Share Posted November 25, 2008 how many flyer have a 10year old bird in there loft at this moment. 14 years old in my stock loft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budgie Posted November 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 14 years old in my stock loft Looks a cracker and in superb health.Has he won or left anything for the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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