Paratyphoid

[Guest frank dooman]

holms i spoke to rod adams 3/4 weeks ago and he is friends with wim peters to the point where they have made dvds on the subject and he told me is is not for vac against it infact hes dead against it only what he told me

[holmsidelofts]

 

http://www.belgicadeweerd.nl/news/paratyphoid.html. If you read that you will see nothing has changed in 30 years and he thinks that vaccination in case of paratyphoid is a professional mistake.  I watched his video and on it he tells dave allen he would not and has not used a vaccine for para as it does not stop them from getting it and vaccination sometimes causes out-breaks,

 

one of course they would say that, no one would use parastop there product if they said anything different. there nowhere on the british vet assoc site that says it still stands. that was a paper written 20 years ago and just because its still on the site doesnt mean its relevant.

 

If you say it still stand show everyone where it says that.

 

[holmsidelofts]

 

one of course they would say that, no one would use parastop there product if they said anything different. there nowhere on the british vet assoc site that says it still stands. that was a paper written 20 years ago and just because its still on the site doesnt mean its relevant.

 

If you say it still stand show everyone where it says that.

 

Also belgicadeweerd will say that as they dont want a drop in sales of there product, you even said yourselves about people making money from vaccines, deweerd make a fortune out of parastop, which in fact is doing more damage to the sport than a proper vaccination program. people are using it regularly, you have to ask yourself why is that its because salmonella is a real risk but they are using antibiotics which thats what parastop is and is causing all these issues that we see out there with birds with poor immune systems and diseases that are resistant to the drugs we have.

i guarantee you within the next 5 years salmonella will be rife and you may even see compulsory vaccinations. It will take over from PMV as the disease you dont want to catch.

Believe you me i caught PMV back in the 80's when it first came out, and its devastating, others have come on here and said the same when they have had salmonella.

Its up to the individual and as i said before the experts are the people who deal with it day in day out thay are the pigeon vets of the world.

 

You have to make up your own mind.

Plus you said about the info i supplied is not fact.

go to the following address where you will find answers to most pigeon health problems written by the expert vets around the world, there plenty on there about salmonella.

http://www.pipa.be/en/newsandarticles/ask_the_vet

 

jas

[holmsidelofts]

 

one of course they would say that, no one would use parastop there product if they said anything different. there nowhere on the british vet assoc site that says it still stands. that was a paper written 20 years ago and just because its still on the site doesnt mean its relevant.

 

If you say it still stand show everyone where it says that.

 

Also belgicadeweerd will say that as they dont want a drop in sales of there product, you even said yourselves about people making money from vaccines, deweerd make a fortune out of parastop, which in fact is doing more damage to the sport than a proper vaccination program. people are using it regularly, you have to ask yourself why is that its because salmonella is a real risk but they are using antibiotics which thats what parastop is and is causing all these issues that we see out there with birds with poor immune systems and diseases that are resistant to the drugs we have.

in guarantee you within the next 5 years salmonella will be rife and you may even see compulsory vaccinations. It will take over from PMV as the disease you dont want to catch.

Believe you me i caught PMV back in the 80's when it first came out, and its devastating, others have come on here and said the same when they have had salmonella.

Its up to the individual and as i said before the experts are the people who deal with it day in day out thay are the pigeon vets of the world.

 

You have to make up your own mind.

Plus you said about the info i supplied is not fact.

go to the following address where you will find answers to most pigeon health problems written by the expert vets around the world, there plenty on there abou salmonella.

http://www.pipa.be/en/newsandarticles/ask_the_vet

 

jas

 

[Guest IB]

 

That information was written and published in 1991 (The Veterinary Record, Vol 128, Issue 7, 152-153

Copyright © 1991 by British Veterinary Association) how can you possibly say that is relevant now. Thats 20 years old.

 

Sorry mate. but it says it on the top of the page of the link you have provided. A hell of a lot changes in 20 years. Lets get back to information thats relevant in modern pigeon racing.

 

Most research studies usually invite follow-up studies, and this one was the same, with same results & conclusion. 100% of vaccinated pigeons went down with salmonella

 

Avian Pathology (2000) 29, 465– 471

 

The effect of vaccination on the course of an experimental Salmonella typhimurium infection in racing pigeons

 

Monita Vereecken*, Peter De Herdt, Richard Ducatelle &

Freddy Haesebrouck

 

Laboratory of Avian Diseases, Department of Pathology, Bacteriology and Avian Diseases, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, University of Gent, Salisburylaan 133, 9820 Merelbeke, Belgium

 

Two killed adjuvanted vaccines were evaluated for their efficacy against salmonellosis in pigeons. Both vaccines contained whole-cell formaldehyde-inactivated Salmonella typhimurium var. Copenhagen bacteria. Two groups of 10 pigeons were inoculated twice with a 3-week interval with one of the vaccines. Ten weeks after the second vaccination, all vaccinated pigeons as well as 10 non-vaccinated birds were challenged by crop inoculation of 109 colony-forming units of a Salmonella serotype Typhimurium var. Copenhagen strain. Ten pigeons that were not vaccinated or challenged served as negative controls. As determined by clinical examination, plasma chemistry and necropsy, neither vaccine induced protection against challenge. The only significant effects observed were a reduction in the level of faecal shedding and a less severe polydipsia in the pigeons treated with one of the two vaccines. Results of this study indicate that vaccination against salmonellosis in pigeons with killed vaccines may not be very useful. However, the ability of certain vaccines to reduce shedding may contribute to the control of salmonellosis in infected pigeon lofts.

 

 

I've attached the full paper. The researchers clearly state it as a follow-up work to the earlier one with same conclusion.

 

 

Maybe you would now like to take your own advice and show us what papers you have supporting your view?

[Guest IB]

 

Sorry ib you are wrong. vaccine  cannot cause the disease. even with live vaccines the bacteria are weakened to a state where that isnt possible. Again refer to the article by wim peters in the bhw it explains that. to answer your last question no you wouldnt expect to find any as the the birds are not shedding the bacteria from the vaccine in the first place. i would suggest you start reading articles written by the experts and get the correct info before coming on to a forum giving information that has no fact.

 

I read a lot of stuff and where the general trend is the same on any topic I usually commit it to memory in this case that memory is deffo ‘live vaccines shed’.

 

I have done a quick web search using keywords ‘live vaccine shedding’ and have turned up papers which cover bacteria and virus, and which applies to humans, horses, mice, calves and dogs. From that I take it that shedding is a well known phenomenon to those that know what they are talking about, and applies across the board, irrespective if virus, bacteria or type of animal.

 

Humans

 

Very long and detailed. Worth a read.

 

 

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2008/02/24/secondary-transmission-%EF%BB%BFthe-short-and-sweet-about-live-virus-vaccine-shedding/

 

 

Horses

 

The faecal shedding was first detected 12 to 15 days following the intrarectal vaccine administration and lasted for one to three days after initial detection.

 

http://vets-net.com/Default.aspx?page=pages/news/NewsItem.aspx&query=QMitemEQ251

 

 

Mice

 

Serotype Typhimurium aroA (TetC) derivatives harboring additional mutations in either shdA or misL or combinations of these mutations exhibited a marked decrease in shedding of the vaccine strain in the feces of orally vaccinated mice.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1865686/

 

Calves

 

The shedding of rotavirus in the faeces of gnotobiotic calves orally inoculated with a commercial modified live bovine rotavirus bovine coronavirus vaccine was monitored

 

http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=19962201463

 

Dogs

 

In the dogs of group A, vaccinal virus was not detected in faecal samples by virus isolation (VI) and by PCR assay, while in the dogs of group B, the virus was revealed for six median days challenge (dpc 3) and by PCR assay for 23 median days starting from dpc 1.

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TD6-4BG3TDW-B&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=7a67196ddbbdab8a7260ec5b43559f21

 

 

 

 

i would suggest you start reading articles written by the experts and get the correct info before coming on to a forum giving information that has no fact.

 

Perhaps you should take your own advice. Once again you have demonstrated your poor grasp of all the issues. Get some homework in.

[pigeonscout]

 

Also belgicadeweerd will say that as they dont want a drop in sales of there product, you even said yourselves about people making money from vaccines, deweerd make a fortune out of parastop, which in fact is doing more damage to the sport than a proper vaccination program. people are using it regularly, you have to ask yourself why is that its because salmonella is a real risk but they are using antibiotics which thats what parastop is and is causing all these issues that we see out there with birds with poor immune systems and diseases that are resistant to the drugs we have.

i guarantee you within the next 5 years salmonella will be rife and you may even see compulsory vaccinations. It will take over from PMV as the disease you dont want to catch.

Believe you me i caught PMV back in the 80's when it first came out, and its devastating, others have come on here and said the same when they have had salmonella.

Its up to the individual and as i said before the experts are the people who deal with it day in day out thay are the pigeon vets of the world.

 

You have to make up your own mind.

Plus you said about the info i supplied is not fact.

go to the following address where you will find answers to most pigeon health problems written by the expert vets around the world, there plenty on there about salmonella.

http://www.pipa.be/en/newsandarticles/ask_the_vet

 

jas

 

Yes people are using antibiotics because they are the only thing that have been scientifically proven to clear your birds of Paratyphoid.

Most of theses so called expert vets you talk about also tell you to give these same antibiotics you say is doing harm before you give the vaccine.

So are theses vets you are getting your info from right about giving the vaccine that does not stop them from getting Paratyphoid and wrong about the antibiotics that have been proven to work? When I said that there is no vaccine that will stop your birds from getting Paratyphoid you said I was talking crap. I have give you proof that what I said is scientific fact so ask yourself who has been talking the crap?

[johno]

"On the other hand it may happen very seldom or not ever with the measles and mumps vaccine viruses." Quoted from your link IB Humans. This paper refers to instances of secondary infection through live vaccine passed through the vaccinated subject. No reference is made to the vaccinated host being infected by the live vaccine. In the second study you link us to, only three of a sample of eight subjects had live vaccine in their droppings as far as I can make out.

"However, it is possible that differences in the murine and human immune systems result in different temporal requirements for the priming of the immune system." Quoted from your link to the mice study.   From the calves link "It is concluded that faecal shedding of vaccine rotavirus demonstrable by electron microscopic examination is uncommon following oral inoculation of calves with the bovine rotavirus-bovine coronavirus vaccine." From my limited abilities as a layman it is clear that no one rule can be extracted from any of these studiea. It is clear that virus can be but not always is shed after vaccination by a live vaccine. In taking the teacher like stand you take you are only discouraging people from enquiring and ask questions. Once more you have appointed yourselfas the great all knowing oracle. stop trying to bully people. lighten up for your own sake. and for everyone elses. grow up.

[REDCHEQHEN]

Live vaccine is shed in the droppings - of animals, birds and humans

 

The polio vaccine is shed by babies - I as a mother had to have a 'booster' when my son had his first polio vaccine - to protect me. (that was from my doctor !!)

 

The rules in our combine are that birds given a live vaccine cannot mix with birds from other lofts for 21 days (and that is because  the disease can be transmitted to non vaccinated birds)

[Guest Owen]

REDCHEQHEN

nice one. This is the sort of practical information we need.

Thanks for that

[greenlands]

Live vaccine is shed in the droppings - of animals, birds and humans

 

The polio vaccine is shed by babies - I as a mother had to have a 'booster' when my son had his first polio vaccine - to protect me. (that was from my doctor !!)

 

The rules in our combine are that birds given a live vaccine cannot mix with birds from other lofts for 21 days (and that is because  the disease can be transmitted to non vaccinated birds)

 

I think that's a great piece of information and in my own mind I'm sure this caused a problem some three years ago in this area.

Lindsay.

[Guest IB]

"On the other hand it may happen very seldom or not ever with the measles and mumps vaccine viruses." Quoted from your link IB Humans. This paper refers to instances of secondary infection through live vaccine passed through the vaccinated subject. No reference is made to the vaccinated host being infected by the live vaccine. In the second study you link us to, only three of a sample of eight subjects had live vaccine in their droppings as far as I can make out.

"However, it is possible that differences in the murine and human immune systems result in different temporal requirements for the priming of the immune system." Quoted from your link to the mice study.   From the calves link "It is concluded that faecal shedding of vaccine rotavirus demonstrable by electron microscopic examination is uncommon following oral inoculation of calves with the bovine rotavirus-bovine coronavirus vaccine." From my limited abilities as a layman it is clear that no one rule can be extracted from any of these studiea. It is clear that virus can be but not always is shed after vaccination by a live vaccine. In taking the teacher like stand you take you are only discouraging people from enquiring and ask questions. Once more you have appointed yourselfas the great all knowing oracle. stop trying to bully people. lighten up for your own sake. and for everyone elses. grow up.

 

What you have left out is that my reply was to furnish evidence that 'live vaccines shed in birds droppings', because I was told quite bluntly that it can't happen.  Well the attached extracts clearly show that it does happen. Redcheqhen has also posted up after you of her own personal experience with poliovirus. So from my limited experience as a layman, what can be extracted from all of this evidence, is as a general rule, live vaccine does shed in droppings.

[Guest Owen]

IB

you really are a turn off. As Johno has said you are of little help and a big showoff. Instead of encouraging debate and dialogue you are causing people to turn off and avoid being bullied by you.

You have not convinced me that you know what you are talking about. And your negitivity is really wearing after a time. Why not take a more friendly approach and explain to us how you race your birds and how you get them into a condition to win races. Sorry about the blunt approach but you do not seem able to take a hint.

[johno]

"On the other hand it may happen very seldom or not ever with the measles and mumps vaccine viruses." Quoted from your link IB Humans. This taken from a link you provided completely disagrees with your attempt to create a "general rule." The term general rule is not made in any of the studies you uae. Once again you have declared your own expertise. This quote (273) refers to live vaccine shedding. This to me clearly states that live vaccine is not always shed. You are advocating a position based on your own thoughts. Criticising others for taking an unproven position while you do exactly the same. you attempt to hide your own weakness in debate by linking members to long winded techno babble in a conceited attempt to elevate yourself to some self invented position. as another post says try a bit of humility. if memory serves me did someone not take you to task with your absurd antics before on this site? a younger female member perhaps.