Paratyphoid

[pigeonscout]

 

better to be safe than sorry, they may get it in a milder form,( i dont know) but it will stop them dieing thats for sure

 

Five inactivated and one attenuated vaccine produced for the prevention of salmonellosis in pigeons were compared in an experimental challenge model. The birds were vaccinated according to the recommendations of the manufacturers and they were infected by gavage with a Salmonella typhimurium (var copenhagen) pigeon strain. The challenged control animals showed severe weight loss, excessive water intake over a prolonged period, and excreted large numbers of salmonellae. None of the vaccines fully protected the pigeons, and only an inactivated oil adjuvant vaccine was able to reduce the severity of the clinical signs significantly. Mortality was low and tended to increase with the severity of the clinical signs. These results do not justify the preventive use of salmonella vaccination in pigeons. Nevertheless, the oil adjuvant vaccine may help in the effective cleaning of lofts after an outbreak of salmonellosis.

[Guest Owen]

pigeonscout

I can relate to what you are saying, at least in part. My information is that the disease mutates and as a consequence the vaccines can only give a partial success. If we want to have close to 100% protection we would have to have the vaccine created by using the strain of bacteria that is within our flock. However, the currently available vaccines do give us protection and I think we have to settle for the best we can get for now. Our problem is the lack of finance available to the Labs. They will not give pigeons the priority we need until we can offer them more money. The poultry industry is well covered because they can pay.

[Tony C]

I consider myself a serious fancier (oh yes I do ;D) and I've read anything and everything I can get my hands on about this. Twinned with fanciers I know that jab against this I have come to the conclusion it hinders more than it benefits.

[pigeonscout]

pigeonscout

I can relate to what you are saying, at least in part. My information is that the disease mutates and as a consequence the vaccines can only give a partial success. If we want to have close to 100% protection we would have to have the vaccine created by using the strain of bacteria that is within our flock. However, the currently available vaccines do give us protection and I think we have to settle for the best we can get for now. Our problem is the lack of finance available to the Labs. They will not give pigeons the priority we need until we can offer them more money. The poultry industry is well covered because they can pay.

You say, However, the currently available vaccines do give us protection and I think we have to settle for the best we can get for now.

What sort of protection do they give if

every single bird in the test got para after they had recived the vaccines, that is 100% failure.

[holmsidelofts]

You say, However, the currently available vaccines do give us protection and I think we have to settle for the best we can get for now.

What sort of protection do they give if

every single bird in the test got para after they had recived the vaccines, that is 100% failure.

 

Read the article by wim peters in this weeks bhw and you will realise why that is. All dead vaccines have to be done twice not once as stated by most manufacturers.

If a product hadnt past tests it wouldnt be given a license.

 

[holmsidelofts]

 

so is the chevita vac. a once in a life time jag holms.??

 

there is no once in a life time jab, its a once a year jab because its a live vaccine, the columbovac  one has to be done twice as its a dead vaccine.

[Guest peter4pm]

what about side effects of the vaccines????

[Guest]

my 2005 season was destroyed by paratyphus/samonella

had to despose of most of my stock and racers

used parastop and never looked back

will continue to use it every year after the moult and before breeding

the y/bs get a course after they are kitted up, by then they are not picking about the house roofs etc

that way i know /hope that they start the season clear

was an article in the BHW awhile back that they reconed 80% of the lofts in the UK

had it in some form or other

 

dave

 

[holmsidelofts]

my 2005 season was destroyed by paratyphus/samonella

had to despose of most of my stock and racers

used parastop and never looked back

will continue to use it every year after the moult and before breeding

the y/bs get a course after they are kitted up, by then they are not picking about the house roofs etc

that way i know /hope that they start the season clear

was an article in the BHW awhile back that they reconed 80% of the lofts in the UK

had it in some form or other

 

dave

 

 

Sorry to hear that dave.

As you already know this disease devastates lofts very quickly. and you are right about that article to. Also  a test was carried out with droppings that were removed from race panniers after the birds were released for a race and 80% of those droppings tested positive to salmonella.

If people want to take the chance and do nothing thats up to them but as dave can tell you when you get its is soul destroying, and it can wipe you out.

I have £1000's of pounds worth of birds most of which you couldnt breed there like of again so i will listen to the experts like wim peters, colin walker and my 2 pigeon specialist vets that i deal with and will continue to vaccinate as i have done for a few years now.

I will be changing things slightly this year. the plan is to use the columbovac vaccine which is the dead one first, then give the live one a few weeks later. As stated in wim peters article. he is not the only pigeon vet to suggest this but quiet a few others have said the same also.

 

The question is would you not vaccinate your children just because of hear say?

 

 

[Guest IB]

 

 

Sorry to hear that dave.

As you already know this disease devastates lofts very quickly. and you are right about that article to. Also  a test was carried out with droppings that were removed from race panniers after the birds were released for a race and 80% of those droppings tested positive to salmonella.

If people want to take the chance and do nothing thats up to them but as dave can tell you when you get its is soul destroying, and it can wipe you out.

I have £1000's of pounds worth of birds most of which you couldnt breed there like of again so i will listen to the experts like wim peters, colin walker and my 2 pigeon specialist vets that i deal with and will continue to vaccinate as i have done for a few years now.

I will be changing things slightly this year. the plan is to use the columbovac vaccine which is the dead one first, then give the live one a few weeks later. As stated in wim peters article. he is not the only pigeon vet to suggest this but quiet a few others have said the same also.

 

The question is would you not vaccinate your children just because of hear say?

 

 

Your last question first: we held off vaccinating our last child for MMR because of the 'hearsay' evidence of children developing autism after it. Parents were very worried at that time and still the NHS  was not willing to give 3 seperate jabs.

 

A question of my own: If pigeons are vaccinated using a live vaccine, the bacteria replicate. If a live vaccine is given to a bird that has already had circovirus, the bacteria will replicate and perhaps cause disease, or sub-clinical infection. As mainland Europe has circovirus, and live salmonella vaccines, would you not expect to find salmonella in these birds' droppings?

[Guest mick bowler]

I think it has already been pointed out, but are there not more than one type of Salmonella (Paratyphoid)? (When humans vaccinate for flu, it does not stop them getting every type does it?)

 

So how can a bird be vaccinated if the strain of the virus is not known, or even given something like parastop which is not genus specific? ( i believe parastop is also unlicensed due to its makeup).

 

Also if it does protect then why is there not a human vaccination programme, the same as a lot of other illnesses that kill a lot less people than salmonella worldwide?

 

Sorry but sometimes i question the "specialist vets". Lets face it if there was not all these problems, then there would not be a need for them!! So maybe they are exagerated or have been created by the misuse of medicines (the same as the superbugs), and i find it strange that we seem to be treating for more and more every year. Years ago we never treated for half what they do now and having had a five year break from the sport i was amazed to see lads saying they treat for this that and another!

 

I also believe the more you treat the more they need to be treated, thats why i will give a bird one chance but never two, health wise, regardless of what they cost or have done.

 

[holmsidelofts]

 

Your last question first: we held off vaccinating our last child for MMR because of the 'hearsay' evidence of children developing autism after it. Parents were very worried at that time and still the NHS  was not willing to give 3 seperate jabs.

 

A question of my own: If pigeons are vaccinated using a live vaccine, the bacteria replicate. If a live vaccine is given to a bird that has already had circovirus, the bacteria will replicate and perhaps cause disease, or sub-clinical infection. As mainland Europe has circovirus, and live salmonella vaccines, would you not expect to find salmonella in these birds' droppings?

 

Sorry ib you are wrong. vaccine  cannot cause the disease. even with live vaccines the bacteria are weakened to a state where that isnt possible. Again refer to the article by wim peters in the bhw it explains that. to answer your last question no you wouldnt expect to find any as the the birds are not shedding the bacteria from the vaccine in the first place. i would suggest you start reading articles written by the experts and get the correct info before coming on to a forum giving information that has no fact.

 

 

 

[pigeonscout]

 

Sorry ib you are wrong. vaccine  cannot cause the disease. even with live vaccines the bacteria are weakened to a state where that isnt possible. Again refer to the article by wim peters in the bhw it explains that. to answer your last question no you wouldnt expect to find any as the the birds are not shedding the bacteria from the vaccine in the first place. i would suggest you start reading articles written by the experts and get the correct info before coming on to a forum giving information that has no fact.

 

 

Well if a bird is carrying paratyphoid in a carrier state whereby the birds immune system is keeping it under control. When that bird is given a vaccine against paratyphoid the immune system goes to work on the vaccine and the paratyphoid  that was under control is now left to accumulate. That is why some recommend treating 10 days before the  vaccine.

 

 

 

[pigeonscout]

 

Read the article by wim peters in this weeks bhw and you will realise why that is. All dead vaccines have to be done twice not once as stated by most manufacturers.

If a product hadnt past tests it wouldnt be given a license.

 

If you read the findings you will see that he birds were vaccinated according to the recommendations of the manufacturers and the results do not justify the preventive use of salmonella vaccination in pigeons. I did read the article in the bhw by wim peters and he is 100% sure in telling us to vaccinate against paramyxo but not the paratyphoid.

 

Five inactivated and one attenuated vaccine produced for the prevention of salmonellosis in pigeons were compared in an experimental challenge model. The birds were vaccinated according to the recommendations of the manufacturers and they were infected by gavage with a Salmonella typhimurium (var copenhagen) pigeon strain. The challenged control animals showed severe weight loss, excessive water intake over a prolonged period, and excreted large numbers of salmonellae. None of the vaccines fully protected the pigeons, and only an inactivated oil adjuvant vaccine was able to reduce the severity of the clinical signs significantly. Mortality was low and tended to increase with the severity of the clinical signs. These results do not justify the preventive use of salmonella vaccination in pigeons. Nevertheless, the oil adjuvant vaccine may help in the effective cleaning of lofts after an outbreak of salmonellosis.

[holmsidelofts]

Well if a bird is carrying paratyphoid in a carrier state whereby the birds immune system is keeping it under control. When that bird is given a vaccine against paratyphoid the immune system goes to work on the vaccine and the paratyphoid  that was under control is now left to accumulate. That is why some recommend treating 10 days before the  vaccine.

 

 

 

Sorry i cant agree with that the immune system doesnt differentiate between whats the carrier state or whats the vaccine, they are one of the same thing the immune system is designed to attack all foreign antibodies, it wont stop attacking one to attack another.

you are right what you are saying about the 10 day treatment, but that only helps strengthen the action of the vaccine by allowing the vaccine to do its job of stimulating the immune system to produce the antibodies required. thats why some dead vaccines dont work the first time around, there isnt enough stimulus from the vaccine to get the immune system to produce the antibodies required, thats why its recommended to vaccinate twice with any dead vaccine.

Live vaccine is different as it contains live cultures of the disease you are fighting all be it in a very weakened state. that weakened state stimulate the immune system better the first time than the dead vaccine does. thus only requiring you to do it once a year. I totally agree that no vaccine offers 100% protection against diseases, but 90+% is better than 0 % if you dont vaccinate.

 

jas.

 

 

 

[pigeonscout]

 

Sorry i cant agree with that the immune system doesnt differentiate between whats the carrier state or whats the vaccine, they are one of the same thing the immune system is designed to attack all foreign antibodies, it wont stop attacking one to attack another.

you are right what you are saying about the 10 day treatment, but that only helps strengthen the action of the vaccine by allowing the vaccine to do its job of stimulating the immune system to produce the antibodies required. thats why some dead vaccines dont work the first time around, there isnt enough stimulus from the vaccine to get the immune system to produce the antibodies required, thats why its recommended to vaccinate twice with any dead vaccine.

Live vaccine is different as it contains live cultures of the disease you are fighting all be it in a very weakened state. that weakened state stimulate the immune system better the first time than the dead vaccine does. thus only requiring you to do it once a year. I totally agree that no vaccine offers 100% protection against diseases, but 90+% is better than 0 % if you dont vaccinate.

 

jas.

 

 

 

The reason they are given the 10 day treatment is to make sure they do not have paratyphoid .  It has nothing to do with antibiotics helping the immune system otherwise you could give any antibiotics.  You are ask to treat with antibiotics that are effective against paratyphoid so that the birds are clear of it before vaccine is given for the reason given in last post.

I am not a vet but the info I have posted has been  published  by the British Veterinary Association

and they are the findings of Department of Avian Pathology, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, University of Ghent, Belgium.

And if they say the results do not justify the preventive use of salmonella vaccination in pigeons, then who am I to say they are wrong?

you say 90+% is better than 0, So what vaccine stops them getting it? answer none so that is 0%

[holmsidelofts]

 

The reason they are given the 10 day treatment is to make sure they do not have paratyphoid .  It has nothing to do with antibiotics helping the immune system otherwise you could give any antibiotics.  You are ask to treat with antibiotics that are effective against paratyphoid so that the birds are clear of it before vaccine is given for the reason given in last post.

I am not a vet but the info I have posted has been  published  by the British Veterinary Association

and they are the findings of Department of Avian Pathology, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, University of Ghent, Belgium.

And if they say the results do not justify the preventive use of salmonella vaccination in pigeons, then who am I to say they are wrong?

 

I never said that the antibiotics help the immune system, what i did say it takes away any salmonella the bird may have allowing the vaccine to do its job of stimulating the immune system. I to am no vet but have contact with 2 of the top pigeon vets in the uk so again my information comes from the experts. The majority of pigeon vets world wide agree the opposite of what you are saying and they say you must vaccinate so who is right? i have a shelf full of books written by the top vets in our sport and they all say the same.

one things for sure i will do what it takes to prevent my birds getting the disease, As others have said it wipes you out if you get it.

I will continue to follow the advice of the professional vets i deal with, and will continue to read what the scientific world has to say and most of them are for vaccination not against it.  so whos right and whos wrong that you have to make up your own mind on.

 

[pigeonscout]

 

I never said that the antibiotics help the immune system, what i did say it takes away any salmonella the bird may have allowing the vaccine to do its job of stimulating the immune system. I to am no vet but have contact with 2 of the top pigeon vets in the uk so again my information comes from the experts. The majority of pigeon vets world wide agree the opposite of what you are saying and they say you must vaccinate so who is right? i have a shelf full of books written by the top vets in our sport and they all say the same.

one things for sure i will do what it takes to prevent my birds getting the disease, As others have said it wipes you out if you get it.

I will continue to follow the advice of the professional vets i deal with, and will continue to read what the scientific world has to say and most of them are for vaccination not against it.  so whos right and whos wrong that you have to make up your own mind on.

 

If the info I have given is by the British Veterinary Association then where are your vets getting their info?

The facts are that not one vaccine out there will stop your birds getting para.

[holmsidelofts]

 

If the info I have given is by the British Veterinary Association then where are your vets getting their info?

 

Thats the thing its only the british veterinary association that gives that advice ask the same question to any dutch or Belgium vet and they will tell you otherwise. You have to agree that we are still years behind the dutch and Belgium's when it comes to this sport. so why does all the other countries say different, dutch, belgium, australian, south african and the usa vets all are pro vaccinate the british are not. In my opinion and it is my opinion you go with the majority not the minority.

no vaccine regardless of what its for is 100% guaranteed that includes PMV vaccine.

[pigeonscout]

 

Thats the thing its only the british veterinary association that gives that advice ask the same question to any dutch or Belgium vet and they will tell you otherwise. You have to agree that we are still years behind the dutch and Belgium's when it comes to this sport. so why does all the other countries say different, dutch, belgium, australian, south african and the usa vets all are pro vaccinate the british are not. In my opinion and it is my opinion you go with the majority not the minority.

no vaccine regardless of what its for is 100% guaranteed that includes PMV vaccine.

 

The british veterinary association got the info from the Department of Avian Pathology, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, University of Ghent, Belgium. It is your opinion to go with the majority not the minority, well I will go with the facts.

 

http://veterinaryrecord.bvapublications.com/cgi/content/abstract/128/7/152

[holmsidelofts]

 

The british veterinary association got the info from the Department of Avian Pathology, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, University of Ghent, Belgium.

http://veterinaryrecord.bvapublications.com/cgi/content/abstract/128/7/152

 

That information was written and published in 1991 (The Veterinary Record, Vol 128, Issue 7, 152-153

Copyright © 1991 by British Veterinary Association) how can you possibly say that is relevant now. Thats 20 years old.

 

Sorry mate. but it says it on the top of the page of the link you have provided. A hell of a lot changes in 20 years. Lets get back to information thats relevant in modern pigeon racing.

[holmsidelofts]

All i will say to anyone on this subject is get the most relevant up to date ifno before making up your mind on the subject. All the current info available says vaccinate, Also when you have people like geoff kirkland and frank tasker 2 of the best fanciers britain has ever produced swearing by vaccination for salmonella you have to sit up and listen, it doesnt get any better than those to in the fancy. I have in previous threads listed up to date questions answered by some of the top vets in the world on the subject. I do not profess to be an expert, i aint no vet but what i am is a fancier with a fascination for pigeon health and i keep myself as up to date as i can on the subject. I will not up up information or give advice if it has not came from a reputable source.

 

theres no doubt that pigeonscout was only trying to give what he thought was the correct info, but this time it wasnt.

 

jas.

 

[pigeonscout]

 

That information was written and published in 1991 (The Veterinary Record, Vol 128, Issue 7, 152-153

Copyright © 1991 by British Veterinary Association) how can you possibly say that is relevant now. Thats 20 years old.

 

Sorry mate. but it says it on the top of the page of the link you have provided. A hell of a lot changes in 20 years. Lets get back to information thats relevant in modern pigeon racing.

 

http://www.belgicadeweerd.nl/news/paratyphoid.html. If you read that you will see nothing has changed in 30 years and he thinks that vaccination in case of paratyphoid is a professional mistake.  I watched his video and on it he tells dave allen he would not and has not used a vaccine for para as it does not stop them from getting it and vaccination sometimes causes out-breaks,

[pigeonscout]

Just checked the British Veterinary Association and nothing has changed so the info still stands.

[pigeonscout]

All i will say to anyone on this subject is get the most relevant up to date ifno before making up your mind on the subject. All the current info available says vaccinate, Also when you have people like geoff kirkland and frank tasker 2 of the best fanciers britain has ever produced swearing by vaccination for salmonella you have to sit up and listen, it doesnt get any better than those to in the fancy. I have in previous threads listed up to date questions answered by some of the top vets in the world on the subject. I do not profess to be an expert, i aint no vet but what i am is a fancier with a fascination for pigeon health and i keep myself as up to date as i can on the subject. I will not up up information or give advice if it has not came from a reputable source.

 

theres no doubt that pigeonscout was only trying to give what he thought was the correct info, but this time it wasnt.

 

jas.

 

I was not trying to give what I thought was correct info, I was giving scientifically proven facts unlike you who is giving the opinion of those who have an interest in selling the vaccine.

I have shown you scientific facts that the vaccine will not stop your birds from getting paratyphoid. Now can you show me scientific facts that the vaccine does stop them from getting paratyphoid.

Until you do then you have no justification in saying what I, the British Veterinary Association

and the Department of Avian Pathology, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, University of Ghent, Belgium

have said is wrong.