Breeding Blacks

[lordcornwallis]

hi I got a pair of blacks at blackpool , I was checking there young and they have a red in the nest ! had black's for a few years but ive never had a red from them ??

[yeboah]

hi I got a pair of blacks at blackpool , I was checking there young and they have a red in the nest ! had black's for a few years but ive never had a red from them ??

I have a red pied cock that produces pure blacks

He also produces silver mealy /mosaics

When i enquired from my friend who gifted it to me he said its grandfather was black his grandmother a red white flight

The red pied was paired to a blue hen to produce the above mentioned

[Kyleakin Lofts]

I am sure pure Black pigeons will produce only pure Black pigeons.

 

In your case, your pigeons are not pure Black. They are genetically split for Red and the Black is masking this feature. If you are sure that no other pigeon is involved, then this Red YB is recessive to the Black and may be a pure Red, but could also be split and carrying a Red gene.

 

I am not an expert in pigeon genetics, but suspect this is a case of incomplete dominance.

[Adee1888]

I have pure blacks cocks paired to cheq hen and blue hen I get pure black cocks and black pied hens

[eastcoaster]

I paired a blood red to a pure black both from Dave Delea hoping for a black but got a red cheq and a barless mealy ,second nest I got an almost white and a red gay pied ,then 2 red cheqs.

Paired the barless to a cheq and got a barless and a black so have now paired the black hen to her grandfather the blood red just to see what I get

They are all pure Dave Delea pigeons .

Confused ! me too .

[yeboah]

I paired a blood red to a pure black both from Dave Delea hoping for a black but got a red cheq and a barless mealy ,second nest I got an almost white and a red gay pied ,then 2 red cheqs.

Paired the barless to a cheq and got a barless and a black so have now paired the black hen to her grandfather the blood red just to see what I get

They are all pure Dave Delea pigeons .

Confused ! me too .

Your right Colin, barless they due produce

[BIGPETE]

Paired a blood red cock to a jet black hen myself this year. Half expected a black and a red or black and a mealy youngen. Got a pair of opals! Second round in the nest now curious to see what they throw this time round😂

[lordcornwallis]

thanks guys

[Druid Lofts]

If your Black's are recessive blacks they will breed only recessive reds. If you had 2 recessive reds they would only breed recessive blacks. The recessive gene will only appear now and again if the birds have been bred with any other colour.

[gladiator lofts]

what breed of birds are they ? this would make a difference jan arden and thelan birds both have reds and blacks in breeding same as the old krauth birds

[yeboah]

what breed of birds are they ? this would make a difference jan arden and thelan birds both have reds and blacks in breeding same as the old krauth birds

The original Black was a Krauth

The Red an original Kirkpatrick

[REDCHEQHEN]

I find the genetics very confusing. I have a mealie hen and a black cock paired together (Lambrechts) and have not had any the same colour. A black hen, mealie cock, blue bar hen last year, lots of broken eggs - but a lovely deep red cock bird is the only one produced so far this year. I still have all three from last year.

[lordcornwallis]

Two tumblers my friends

[white logan]

I am looking for a black cockbird if anyone has a spare

[eastcoaster]

Your right Colin, barless they due produce

This pair produced a barless mealy and a blood red . What next lol

Was told if I pair 2 barless mealys I will get a black .

[BobW61]

My first 2 pigeons I had back in the early 70s were a Blue Cock and Black Hen these were bred from a (65 rung Blue Cock and 70 rung Black Hen) these were my late uncle Sonny Borrill's no1 pair....from my original pair nestmates I bred a Blue Cock....the split them putting the Black Hen to a Cheq Cock and she regularly threw both Black Cocks and Hens...they were good hard day pigeons flying originally North then switched South clocking out to 400 miles North and 480 South

[eastcoaster]

I have now got a barless blue from a barless mealy X blue pied this genetics stuff confuses me .

[AdamArcher]

A lot of misinformation in this thread. First remember that "ash red" (red cheq etc) and "recessive red" (Carneaux etc) are very different.

 

It is impossible for a pigeon to be "split for" ash red, but they can carry recessive red.

 

If your blacks throw red, it is likely recessive red and they're both carriers of the gene. Less likely, recessive opal mimicking ash red.

[Jonnyboy1]

Black in pigeons comes from a blue series bird with no dominant red in its genes. Black comes from a blue bar or a blue checker/pied etc with an additional dominant 'spread' gene. A dominant gene will express itself in single factor so the original black bird must only have had one 'spread' gene The spread gene expresses the colour of the tail bar over the entire bird in the blue, brown and red series pigeon. The tail bar in a blue series bird is dark blue/black and, with an additional spread gene, that colour washes over all of the bird. The black colour can be charcoal with visible darker bars in the usual places if there are no additional 'darkening' factors in the bird's genetic make up. The underlying pattern of the bird is still there but is not seen - eg. bar, checker, pied. The tail bar in red series bird is ash red, the same colour as the rest of the tail and when this colour is 'spread' we see a mealy coloured bird without the bars which racing pigeon men call 'barless' mealy. Barless is in reality another mutation with a complete absence of the bars and is different from a red spread. Red spread is also called lavender in some types of fancy pigeon. When brown series birds are spread we see a self brown bird. The brown tail bar is spread and expresses an all brown coloured bird. This bird can resemble a recessive red bird. A recessive red bird needs to have the recessive red gene on both sides of it's parentage and in racing pigeons we call recessive red birds 'chocolates'. 2 barless mealies that are both split for blue and both having only one spread factor genetically can produce blacks, blue bars, mealies and barless mealies as for blacks or barless mealies only one parent has to pass on the spread factor.

 

If the original black was a checker or pied bird these colours can also be seen in the next generation as long as neither parent passes on a spread factor.

 

If the original 2 black birds were carrying recessive red a red youngster (or chocolate) could be seen in an occasional nest. To complicate matters still further recessive red birds are epistatic to, (or are able to mask) all other colours and patterns. This means that they can be carrying blue bar or pied and the spread gene but will be visually recessive red or chocolate.

 

The other possibility is that the black hen had been tread by a red cock a short time before being paired to the black cock, say before purchase or that the hen has been 'unfaithful' to the black cock on one occasion. Last option is a spontaneous red mutation in the sperm or egg of either parent although this is considerably less likely.

 

The following 2 sites might help to explain these complex genetics a little.

 

https://sites.google.com/site/colourhomers/mutations/spread-factor

 

http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/Spread.html

 

Copy and paste these into your browser, so not breaching copyright in my opinion.

 

Hope this stimulates some further discussion/debate.

 

 

Regards,

 

Jonnyboy1

[THE FIFER]

interesting post