Roland

Well said... I agree fully. Mind I don't believe ‘disagreement’ is the right scenario, more like different points of view, which is what 'Debating' is all about. Personally I don't for a minute believe that Bruno would hold a grudge or endeavour in the slightest to do me any kind of injustice, or hurt. I know I wouldn't him, indeed I am sure that we will on many occasions be 100% in agreement ... Likewise no doubt we, and others, will undoubtedly also beg to differ. Its like, 'Shake hands, come out spouting, and win, lose or draw may the best points be adhered to'. So I obviously in debate know there has to be an element of 'personalities' different strokes etc. and view points. Sometime both are wrong, or right, but other can always draw their on conclusions, and may get something from us... even if it's only dandruff. But overall it doesn't, as you will no doubt agree do any harm to abide a good old verbal punch up. Even if you can't, let alone wish to side either way. And again some, - not many - won't bother to read, which is of course their preoperative

Bruno what has your last post got to do with my saying that 'If it is for certain 'Ways' then best stick to it... outside of having to agree with me! Likewise Heat treat, Bruising etc. etc. etc. are treated from OUTSIDE of the Skin ... obviously the bruising etc. is Under the skin! Same as Treatment for Arthritis, etc. etc. etc. And yes I did know the skin was / is the largest organ. So wind your neck in and just agree... instead of endorsing as if omething new! End of topic.

It will in that case probably come down the rest of the way.... known most that do / did

Better for New Comers to spend a little extra on Loft / Feed and training and learn the game for a season or two before spending out I believe. Go to a friend of a friend in a diferent area - so you won't be flying their birds against them - and have a few Latebreds. Cost a lot less, or many will present as a present, and they are born and bred in the pink. I don't mean gadging, I mean every other fancier knows a fanier that would rather do you a good turn tan a bad one. And you will pay a lot les off thebest than ,... When you have done what you will do anyway, - for you will regadless of whom tells you what, then put together your' own program. If your not doing fair after 3 seasons, it means an up hill battle, for most start by then to be noticed. You will need a honest friend... Then spend a few quiddies, and remember that often it's the gift from genuine fanciers that are the real McCoys... Some feather merchants are pretty straight too ... many of course likewise aren't neccessarily. And take no notice of the Successful fancier that implies that you should do the same as 'Him'and purchase at great cost implying that everyone can afford it! Most can't and still are after a time sucessful in getting together a winning team. Many brag they pay for a pair what takes most of us to earn in a year's wages.... They may well do, but that in't what makes them sucessful, it's the management they are born with and learnt from.... Coupled with common sense and expierence.

What has that got to do with the price of eggs??? Where and why you plucked that out from is completely irrelevant! The simple statement is ‘Horses for courses’ mucker, and if it is Oral, then sticks to it. If it says 'Through Skin' then sticks to it. The mere fact that that is the recommended way and / or dosage should be obvious.... even to you when you’re not trying to impress, or a Pull at me. Intra... goes direct, and that with pour on for example is NOT what is needed, BUT to build up and like other 'Spot On's' is not to be jabbed straight into the system. Harkers don't sell spot on and say, 'Of course, if you want jab the dog/ Cat / Elephant and it will do a much better Job'. If this was the case the Vet's would jump on the wagon. And Harker is a commercial company, and I took my Quote from a renowned Worldwide Vet, etc. who has publications all over the place, and even wrote / writes in the BHW. Further backed up by two other very well renowned and respected persons who aren't making a living from their sales, or being paid to promote a company or product!

Gas board will dismantle and allow the bird out for Free.... But then of course won't reconnect unless paid. Fire Brigade no longer do it, Well in this area any way. Gas board do it as it is deemed a 'Health / safty matter'

Gas board will dismantle and allow the bird out for Free.... But then of course won't reconnect unless paid. Fire Brigade no longer do it, Well in this area any way.

530 Lerwicke ... but of course the Souths and Wesy / Wales Etc. flew further! North Rd.

That the North Midlands Mike? Can't get the site up ... nearly told a porky and said 'I can't get it up' lol

I have traps set with a spot of Mars Bar in, they take to that ... Peanut butter is good too, but attracts also, so I feel that would be defeating the object ... and Rats come from afar for Peanut Butter, as the smell attracts... Of course bread witha little antifreeze on it will sort out most critters. Don't worry if it's Blue, for it's sweet so they go for it... culls most about anything, so make sure it is only where the pigeons can't get! Rats and Mice don't mix so if mice are preeasent then that is a small blessing. As soon as the nights draw in, so do the rats and mice. so don't fool yourselves they aren't about, be a rarity if your house hasn't any! Just most folks don't notice. Feed left around of course attracts.

Agree wih The Fifer ... could use Just a tad of Epsom Salts, and feed Linseed 50% for a couple of days, wouldn't hurt none, and al would be passed through...

Don't seem to grasp the simple fact that it doesn't stay 'out' but goes in, and is stored within the body. Anything that can be stored can also be mobilised again. The fat soluble vitamins, glycogen etc come back into circulation when needed by the body, so don't see why deposited ivermectin residues don't come out for a wee spin round the body too. And a fat lot of good they'll do too. Well there is a perfectly simple logically example Bruno … Must say you worry me sometimes lol. Now sit down a pay attention. Many things are good for external use … Read the ‘Warning label’s’. Wonder why they put them on! Many things have just a pill placed with food or water! Ointments are rubbed in. I wonder why… Then substances re inhaled. Some have three different ways of use…. I wonder why. When on the ‘Death Bed’ as a LAST RESORT an injection directly in the heart!!! I wonder why! You must agree surely that they are several methods of inducement and putting ‘Stuff’ into ours and the Birds system etc. etc. – I CAN write a 6 page dossier for you if need be! Any way to further enlighten to you, birds peck up corn Yes! Alright so far? Good and cool that then. Their ‘Inner system breaks it down and distributes its over a period of time to the parts that may – or may not – need it. When the ‘Cup’ is full, then the excess is passed through. Now if one sticks ‘Maple peas all over the bird, and even direct contact with the skin, I can tell you Bruno, and you must believe this, they won’t dissolve and go through the skin! Trust me, take my word for it! That needs to be eaten to get inside of the bird. That takes a certain amount of time to be sorted and stored or passed through. 24 – 48 hours, even more for other storage to be successful. Yet…. WAIT for it Bruno. Don’t get excited. Oh I see you have grasped it, when broken down and jabbed 3 minutes! You don’t give horse heat treatment ointment orally to speed it up and make it work quicker, well you might but most wouldn’t, take my word for it, ask a vet if it would actually work if you must. Many medicines are available in different forms to be taken. Some Stronger need a Certificate for the use, I wonder why. So one want to make the Heart beat a mite stronger, and a mite longer, could use an herbal over a few days, or jab a substance direct into the heart I suppose. Must be a reason why different strengths and different means of administering are put into practice. Could well be that a steady and gentle build works best and very satisfactory over a period of time. Could well be food for thought that if condensed, or put into a stronger concentrated form, then jabbed directly into the birds' system: that the birds’ system couldn’t handle it and if not kill the bird do a vast damage and at least render the bird useless. Hope this helps Bruno. Mind Read a few more books, and take aboard why medicines normally refer to pacific proportions and usage! Personally I twigged it as a young lad….

Hyacinth I call him Rumble stilt skin... a sleeping money making menace. him and George Bush have the rights and a vast % ownership of Tamiflu so of course Blair will be pushing for it. Did nothing 1992 and same now! Lays dormant for a few weeks tops. Canada saw through and told them to sling the hook apparently. And the Canadian pigeon folks did put forward a case which they won! when the Goverment threatened to restrict racing. Likewise lobbyed their goverment over and WON against Australian export / Imports which can now go ahead. But us Brits gnarl the gnashers and seeth... whilst debating whether sit on their hands or stick them up their arses. and as always settled somewhere in the middle. twiddling thumbs.

Sorry Ribble, possiblely don't then. I thought instead of leaving a substance on the outer, thoughts that it might be better to jab. Like a inhaler, then orally taken to improve or make more effective. So I can't help there matey. Any way for any one that thinks that there could be a beneficial side to that particular scenario I'd warn to be careful. Why? Wel the extra speed could be devastating, for example studies in the USA found that when glucose, the sugar stored as starch in cereal grains, was injected intravenously into hungry pigeons, it was converted to fat by the liver within in three minutes - which indicates that the liver is the main organ for the production of fat from carbohydrates. The fat produced is located and stored in the body cavity among the intestines and is mobilised as cruising flight gets underway in a toss or a race. Now that is mind boggling, and I'd certainly err on the side of caution ... Personally I'd never entertain the idea.

Well seems to me - as a person that sit on the fence - that this may be of an interest.. would welcome viws of course from Jack. http://www.universaloptic.com/home

Personally I'd raer late breds prely for the job. I'd light train for fisrt season, a lot of lollying around and rood topping. Only, upto a 20 - 30 miles regurlar tosses each direction. Then thy would be trained as norm first yearling season, but only have 2/3 100 - 150 mile races, and plenty of rest between. Next season would be their time to shine! A fressh 18 month old is full of flying, or should be. Season after sensiblely prepared they will fly from any where if fit / healthy and good enough! They reason most don't do this is simply because the feel that it takes too long for the benefits. But if one does it every season then it matters not a jot. So y/b osses are acceptable, late breds aren't!!! I should co - coa.

Well why Double up? Because it was found that if a substance of FEED is injected direct into a bird then the liver would turn that into 100% flying FAT within 3 MINUTESS! Now get your head arund that! If it takes a day or two for oral. AND.... just imagine what the effects would be if you Injected the like of SPOT on.... And nuts to your mate, is he a pigeon? Is he qualified to state what the diffence is. Take and extra shot of any Drug that is for a certain system and abuse it, then you are tempting catastrophe. So in your above post you have answered your own question. why would one want to do it!!!? I wouldn't, perhaps you DON'T understand what you actually asked, and then the answer. Seems so to me. End of toic, WE both NOW know!

Quote: The Good News is the German FLI (Government Institute) has developed an effective Vaccine against H5N1 that can easily be differentiated on testing from an actual infection with the disease, this was done by getting it to 'Piggy-back' on a non-infective (altered)Newcastle Disease virus, this also means the Vaccine could be used on other animals besides Poultry. This results in a 'Double use Vaccine' = NC and H5N1 The Bad News is, they reckon it will not be 'available' for about 5 years Previous Vaccines used the Herpes Virus as a 'carrier', could only be used on Poultry, were labor inefficient to administer and could not be distinguished from the illness on testing. Over the next Year 'Field Trails' will be carried out to fully investigate the range of Species it will give protection too. Original article: FLI testet erfolgreich zweiten Markerimpfstoff gegen Geflügelpest Insel Riems, 26. Mai 2006. Zum Schutz von Nutzgeflügel gegen Geflügelpest stehen derzeit nur Impfstoffe zur Verfügung, die keine sichere Unterscheidung von geimpften und infizierten Tieren erlauben. Das Friedrich-Loeffler-Institut (FLI) stellte nun den zweiten Prototyp eines Markerimpfstoffes gegen die Geflügelpest vor, der solch eine Unterscheidung ermöglicht. Die Ergebnisse wurden kürzlich in einer hochrangigen internationalen Fachzeitschrift der amerikanischen Akademie der Wissenschaften publiziert. Bei der Entwicklung des neuen Impfstoffes setzten die Riemser Wissenschaftler eine ungefährliche Impfvariante des Newcastle Disease Virus als Träger ein. Dieser wurde das Hämagglutinin-Gen eines Geflügelpestvirus eingesetzt. „Unser Prototyp zeigte in ersten Versuchen einen sehr guten Schutz von Hühnern gegen beide Krankheiten und ermöglicht über das Trägerviruskonzept eine leichte Unterscheidung von geimpften und Influenzavirus-infizierten Tieren,“ berichtet der Präsident des FLI, Prof. Thomas Mettenleiter. Bereits im nächsten Jahr sollen Feldversuche folgen, um die praktische Anwendung an größeren Tierzahlen zu testen. In other words... although pigeons do not get it now, they soon will because of help from science. Because we are forced to vaccinate for PMV. … NO! What it may mean is that poultry farmers in your neighborhood will vaccinate their poultry against Newcastle disease and AI. This poultry will therefore not come down with AI and no "official" will show up at your door with a court order demanding the destruction of your pigeons.

PETA Advocate the Killing of animals. that have, no . full stop, their Mandate proscribes to mass slaughter. Have documented proof is questioned to back it up!

Can't answer it Ribble.... can only repeat WHY! I certainly wouldn't enterain the idea. I know much has been over subscribe with little or no effect, and likewise more that have had a detrimental effect. An example, when ... but will post it tonight as I have to dash off.

Nice play of words Mike. Seems more like that Gary has put a cross in with his Soontjens Mike than added to his Gaby's. Seems strange that Gary has never promoted the Gaby's as far as I recall ... Indeed going out of his way to advertise that 'A certain National' winner, the same one that won the BICC did in fact have 25% Gabys’ in it. – So does one then imply that it was the 25% that was all important, and was the reason for the now two wins? More over it makes one wonder if this one, and then other of Gary's birds are added to, or included in the 'National Winners’ supposedly won by Van of Marks birds...! Personally I couldn't give a pickled rat behind, but it is at the front of many good fanciers minds, whom like me just smile…

Well I once read that Daykin took an ad out to say that there was only 25% Van Beele in one of his national winner. Seems he rates the Soontjen, and say that is where is sucess lies. I see the other thread asking about Soontjen and thought rather than two. I'd just post this from his interview. 1st Centre Section 1st Open goes to G & S Daykin & Evans of Nottingham who have been one of the top National performing lofts in the country for quite some time. However, this is the first time that I (Les) have had the opportunity to talk to Gary Daykin about his pigeons and systems. We had a very long conversation, which I really enjoyed, and during that time I think we covered most things about racing. Anyway, the latest National winner is a Soontjen/Vandenabeele blue cock that also won 1st National as a yearling in 05 so there is now a double 1st National winner in the loft. Gary was saying that fanciers from around the country think that this is a partnership name that sounds like a solicitor’s! The pigeons are now all down to Gary since his father became unable to attend to the lofts so the thoughts that people have on there being a big team around these lofts are not correct. This was Gary’s first race with the BICC and it only came about because of the circumstances surrounding racing this year. However, if he can manage the long round trip to his nearest marking station he will be sending again. This year the pigeons have not had the work that they should have had because Gary does not race in the weekly clubs and feds, consequently they have only had two inland races with the MNFC prior to this race. For this season the pigeons are being raced on the roundabout with a team of between 60/70 being available. The system is working quite well even though there is more work involved and for this race both hens and cocks were entered, with the cocks coming out on top. Knowing how many good performances Gary has achieved I asked about the best of them all. It didn’t take too long before he told me that it would be a toss up between Picauville and Chale, which were both fantastic results. The next question was what does it take to be a winner? “Good fanciers and good pigeons will always win whether racing on the north or south routes. You need the right tools for the job and the right pigeons for the management system that you have in place.” Gary finished by telling me about the Soontjen family and in his opinion they are something special, particularly if you have the right lines form the originals that came over. They have done a lot of winning since they came into the UK and there is still more to come. It seems hat this comes up quite a lot.

Different strokes for different reasons ... Pour on, and then Spot on. why needlessly upset the birds with injection! I know that they seem to quickly get over the jab... But In reality the less medicene etc. use the better. Know many a good fancier that WORMS etc. before pairing, the CAnker etc. then when eggs are 14 days treats for Canker again. Might use a little B/Y but mainly just cleand Feed and fresh water which is quickly taken away. What else is essential? !

They isn't a vaccine. will be 5 years down the line, IF feasible and profitable. If one is looking at the Vacine that eorge Bush is selling that is the 1992 stuff that makes it dormant for a few weeks only. and him and hi Hoppo Rmble Stltskin have already sold 200,000,00 doses. aNo wonder they sold their Oil shares!

Plenty not worth a jot. Any, and I believe all, were only great when an outcross was introduced. Then out crosses are constantly introduced. Hence the 'Name' only relates to the person(s) who made the birds - so called strain - famous. Now a great hen that is saturated with the so called great blod, is usually a lot smaller and can hardly fly to the roof tops,