Roland

Hope Jim took them Pippo's over for you ;) ;D

Have since learnt that the site was done by a youngster, an 11 year old. Yes well done lad, and parents are proud of you, as they should be.Well done.

Just ask me says ' ....i think a lot is down to methods and pigeons not being ttrained right how come in todays age ...' Exactly, 50 years ago only trained on bike, bus or once in a while train for 2/6 - 12p. Yet every loft nigh at seasons end was over stocked when the y/b's were put into the o/b section.

You've lost me there, what sprint theory? Please refresh as I can't see it lol

Wind your neck in, and grow up. Nothing said there to alarm or upset anyone. Go and get a life, come back and see the real picture. In your case probably 3 life times.

Exactly right! Good of you Tony.

Nah, can't agree or see any logic there Steve D. Besides most fanciers have a good inkling of keeping their birds in good nick. Up until the 'Money' got into the sport, and the able starting fleecing the grass roots, 24 pairs was a 'Mob Flyer'! Bear me out here, as I continue, that 18 birds or between 9 and say 12 pairs was the norm. They flew every race between them and most going to 70% / 80% of the races and ALL had to do a 250 odd miler as y/b's 450 or more as yearlings and as far as possible, indeed anywhere as an 2 yearold. Losses were few, and most birds not on their perch at night fall were on loft mostly early morning. If not then during the week. Training was mostly via Bike, Train once or twice a month, or just the club races. The condition of birds today, as to 30 years ago even let alone 50, are far far better health wise etc. Just look at the show pens. - Not saying too many 'Ills' Aren't covered over though - Better managed, trained and looked after. 1000's of video's, books etc. etc. and like here a great mount of information available. Would birds live with the birds of yesteryear? Seems not volicty wise. Deffinately not losses wise. If one could cagde 4 pairs when starting up, which invariably they did, the they were set for their first young bird season. And none of this 'Saving them, holding back, and what 150 miles!, nah keeping them in the loft! Malarky. Birds had to prove themselves by being there at seasons end. And the problem was which had to go, not make room for more, add more perches. At seasons end if all birds didn't have a perch... well some had to go! Too many look for excuses, and too many offer silly ones that suit, like 'Strain, like type, and then crap scenario's like 'Over Crowding' just lame crutches for bad managerment. Only ever had one fly away... bought in 24 y/b's on the Saturday. Was a mite old granted. Left to walk in and out Sunday. Monday they flew up and down a bit, like wise Tuesday when hawk attacked. Next time out when still on garden Grand daughter thought it fun to chase with a Stick. Up tjhey went, and got hit by the mid week Barnsley way Fed. Next day one back, over the next few weeks I got another 8 back... Still have them, and only been tossed once and raced once. All the way this season. If I lose them, it is via Human means and not the birds.

Aye ' ...We are a very proud nation, we sing, we play and we have sheep, lots and lots of sheep!!!! where men are men and sheep are scared eh! ;D

Well that os plain to see lol ... already got the 'Commercial Aspects' in place I see :-/ :-/ >

Like your post there. Depends also on several other things, just two being whether you want are bringing into a new loft, whether in a stock loft or off 'Racers' besides much more. I also like to see them fed and watered in the basket, left outside in the basket, released and live i the basket inside their compartment, before they are let outside, though I will pass them through the traps a few times before they are allowed to venture outside. The loft must be taught as a 'Safe Refuge' a first class hotel with fresh clean water and feed that they WANT to return to. When a bird is confindent that it can alway get into the loft when it wants, thats when they fly with zest and range well, enjoy the freedom, and then is the time to let 'Contentment' set in. So with this in MY mind, and the purpose, and what I have in store for the parents as well as the y/b's,are both rearing them throughout or just one sex, is there to be another round and cother ertain circumstances they can be removed between 14/16day to when they decide leave or are kicked out.

First class annalyst that ... Further the eroding but incest and unnatural breeding I believe also plays a major part.

About time too lol 20 years since the last Odd win eh! ;D

Well in Canada the law says that it mustn't house more than one in a sq ft of air. So 6 x 5 by say 6 high is 180 devide by 9. But we all know that goverment rules are way over accessed. But I house 24, - that's 12 pairs breeding in that. and actually have / do have 32, that's 16 pairs in a 5 x 4 and thay are always the picture of health. Indeed are always, but always in fine nick, and above all very contented.

Well back to the drawing board lol. Had me mate around today too after yonks who actually took some quick pictures. Are on the Adobe part and don't know how to put into my 'My Pictures' etc. but they did show up on Browse when I tried to down load.

This is my loft just15 foot long. But the end section on the right is just for Stray's / hospitalised birds. The rest is devided into three sections, and can house up to a 100 birds or more with ease. P

Where is Manse Road Newmains? Where is t near?

Finding a 'System' sweet and simple that suits you, and allowing the birds to adapt. Sure some won't and will decide to A. not home quickly, or B. just bugger off. But many will adpt, and then their off spring will and the results will follow. Birds most above all be contented... nothing can or will be achieved till this is achieved.

I once paid £80 for 12 ... got ten, from a lovely ole boy in Scarborough, Mickb, these fly any and all distances ... well did as I am phrasing them out.... and only ever had other people 'Cast Offs' before and since / freebies infact. I have always sent these as far as I could, and have always had some left for the next season ... eveing winning some.... But a consistant family I've never had, and why, well simply one swallow won't make a summer, and the foundations are bluntly not good enough. Everyone has, and has had some great birds in their loft... But very few have birds where you can count on them nigh before being born. P.s. Good luck with your new arrivals. I also believe this thread was 'Starting a family'. and certainly nota quick fix to a hit and miss regime.

And your point being?

Not knocking your post, or it's content, just that 'Hawks' and Hills don't really belong in the equation. And what 'land obsticles'? :-/

On a further note, reading exerpts from a book written by Jerome J. Platt, a retired pigeoneer of the US military and published in the July 15th R.P. Digest. The military certainly has no interest in long distance homing. Their purpose is to get messages from the front or just behind enemy lines to mobile lofts just a few miles away. Certainly rarely if ever over 100 miles. This is what caugt my eye. "Another important event in the company's history was the birth of our first pigeon. A silver cock and a blue hen donated to the army by Roland D. Birch of Salem, OR hatched a healthy baby. These birds were of a breeding line developed in Oregon and called "Old Line" strain. Later we discovered the "Old Line" strain of birds could outfly most any of the strains developed in other parts of the country. It was the result of "survival of the fittest" in Oregon's perpetual rain and fog along the coast. Mr. Ralph E. Warren of Portland Ore is credited with the origin of the "Old Line" strain of homing pigeons. He started with two pairs of birds in 1908 and carefully selected his breeders for succeeding generatiions from birds THAT HAD FLOWN FROM 500 MILES AT LEAST TWICE. As recently as 1971, I talked with Ed Johnson, a buddy from the 281st Signal Pigeon Company days, and he told me the "old Line" strain was still winning races in the Portland club." So the military, intersted in "sprint" flights only, found their best birds came from a family with a mandatory performance testing standard of a minimum of two 500 mile races in the mountains of the west coast of North America.

on the topic of extreme distance racing. it is interesting to note the work of the late g. shanks of B.C. his goal was to breed a bird to fly 2000 miles in 4 races or less and he had a voyageur supreme award listed with the C.U. for this. in 1973 g shanks and g staudinger flew birds 450 miles june 2 ,704 miles june22, and 794 miles july 12. this was the 800 mile world record that year with birds home about 11 am the second day and just under 1100 ypm. indeed this was some bit of flying. shanks believed a 1000 mile day bird could be possible...a 1 am release up north with 22 hours of flying time. who knows? pictures of the 800 mile winners can be seen in 101 methods the diary of john lambrects pg. 100.

I stated earlier that true long lasting great families of pigeons must be built around winning pigeons from 600, 700 and 800 miles. I have been giving this a great deal of thought, and I think most would agree with that. This of course does not mean that all pigeons in one’s loft must fly these distances or that pigeons that win at 200-450 miles and get lost at 500-700 miles cannot be great pigeons, just not the right type to build an entire family around. Since it is impractical and in all likelihood foolhardy to ship all our good combine winning pigeons to these extreme distances, the question becomes, how do we identify these great performers at 600-800 miles without throwing the baby out with the bath water. I think the key may be a specialty long distance club where the members would keep a separate group of birds with the sole purpose in mind of testing them at the extreme distances on a regular basis to try and identify those few key foundation breeders. Anyone have any thoughts on this idea? I often believe when I see how the greats blended the 'Families' and just how much distance birds are incorporated, that it has been widely acknowledged that these birds are mainly the very essence of any improvement in pigeon terms. Therefore it stands to reason that these birds which can only fly competitively from 350 to 400 miles are lacking the original long distance qualities that they're predecessors once possessed. The ability to fly the ultimate longer distances. 6 to 800 miles or even 1000 miles! And because this is advised has been proven correct many many times, the 500's are merely a sprint. I also say that any and all good Strains / Families, regardless of the fanciers preference to what distance he prefers, also needs to proven ‘Distance Blood’ to form one. For instance remember the great distance champions of say Jim Biss also, won sprint races likes of 'Natrix' from 50 miles. Indeed Natrix did it every year for 3/4 years AFTER his great exploits at the distance.

Where's Swansea?

Yep I see now :-/ ;D