Big Davie

Del, agree with this 100%

Danny , no selective reading from me, you have shot yourself in the foot with this link, this info is at least 5 years old and you should also read the entire script of your own link which states that several Nobel prize laureate scientists had stated that the report was nonsense and that the author was an imposter, it also states that 99% of French water is now compliant with European standards

Hey Chad good to see you back, been reading some of your posts on another thread and see that a month in the cooler hasn't changed you much. Couldn't agree with you more on the above I'm sure pigeons need to be exposed to low levels of organisms in order to build their immune system and natural immunity, I think it's a case of finding a balance between to clean ( sterile ) and too dirty ( filthy ) but don't think it's anything to do with French water.

French Water See link which I hope is attached, so much for French water being contaminated and unsafe for racing pigeons to drink, more inaccurate and unsubstantiated information. Davie

Water I have been having a think about the discussions on water and would like to add some points for consideration, my own view is that whilst their is no doubt that some of the chemicals that are being quoted on this thread I.E. potassium permanganate, Milton, thin bleach , PLG, ( organic acid ) etc,etc could all have their uses as an aid in maintaining health and cleanliness at the loft and could / should be used as the individual sees fit to use them, I would also be happy for any of the above listed substances to be used to disinfect / sterilise the water tanks , drinkers, and water delivery system which should then be flushed with clean water when disinfection is complete, however IMO this should only be done whilst the transporter is parked up at the home base which if done on a regular basis should ensure that the watering system remains free of any lingering mould , viral or bacterial contamination. I understand that the concern of some fanciers would be in relation to disease transmission via the drinkers whilst the birds were being transported to a race, however against this my own view is that should any of the above stated substances be included in the drinking water then this could be counter productive in respect of actually getting birds to take drink who were not accustomed to the taste of any of these substances and could result in reduced water intake or no water intake at all which could result in dehydration , followed by gappy races and poor returns, as such IMO the only thing that should be presented to the birds to drink while they are in transit is clean water, and plenty of it, should the individual fancier feel it's required then any water borne cross infection concerns can be taken care of in the loft when the birds return from the race , that's when to use these aids, again this is only my own personal opinion. Davie

Aw ,..... Danny, you cut me to the bone, I wasn't having a go about the water , I was only having a wee joke about the chimp and my other posts have been constructive.

Owen , I agree with your concerns regards lack of disinfection of water tanks and delivery systems and on an earlier post you also mentioned damp bags of feeding, mouldy feeding , and dirt and rubbish etc inside a transporter, there is no doubt if that was happening then it would be unacceptable but for me this is a local issue and would need to be addressed by the members and officials of the organisation concerned but it has nothing to do with the design of the transporter. Getting back to the modern transporter on which you based your letter to the BHW,again it would be of interest know if it was purpose built by one of the leading manufacturers ( you don't have to name them )where research and design criteria should have been applied or was it a retrofit / adaptation of perhaps an existing unit where the unit had been adapted based on what pigeon fanciers thought rather than on any detailed research, I think it is important to know this so that we know what we are dealing with.

Danny, as well as taking extra barrels of British water with them maybe they should also take a chimp with them as part of the convoy , just in case the ventilation breaks down and emergency action needs to be taken to save the day. Just a little joke

Bigda, I know that I said last night that I would not respond to your posts but again I cannot contain myself, the above statement is factually incorrect , read the posts on this thread, Owen,s intention is to investigate what he sees as widespread pigeon transportation issues, he only quoted one transporter as an example where he had found that returning birds had problems and that returns were poor, I am sure Owen would agree with this.

Gareth good post and along the lines we discussed earlier, the difference between the Geraldys and NFC is that on one the ventilation system supplies fresh air drawn from atmosphere via a supply fan into the crates whilst the other extracts air from the crates which is then rejected to atmosphere via an extract fan ( NFC ) with the make up fresh air being passive rather than active.This will result in one unit ( Geraldy ) sitting at a slightly positive air pressure whilst the other ( NFC ) will be at a negative pressure. Owen , i don't know what effect if any positive / negative pressure would have on pigeons or whether it has any significance at all but it's another little snippet of info that could be worth looking into. Regards Gareth's question relating to the transporter where you experienced the problems, was this designed and built by any of the proprietary manufacturers, or was it a retrofit / adaptation carried out locally where no specialist research or design criteria had been applied, it would be interesting to know this. I also note in your letter to the BHW relating to aluminium crates that you thought heat produced by the birds was reflected back into the the crates, I imagine that aluminium would have been selected because it is light , strong, and durable, however it is also an excellent conductor because it has a low electrical impedance / resistance value , it is also bright and lacks density in comparison with other materials, you may not be aware of this but on heavy load electrical connections on a commercial or industrial main switchboard for instance where large cables are coupled to copper bus bar connections then the bolts used to do this are selected because they are good conductors and are bright / shiny in appearance which gives them the ability to effectively and evenly dissipate heat whereas dark bolts or material absorbs and retains heat , if you apply this to a transporter where the construction of the crate is made of aluminium then my view is that rather than reflect heat back onto the birds it will actually effectively and evenly conduct and dissipate heat away from them, just another snippet of info worth looking into.

Jock, very well done on winning the Dewar trophy , super pigeon flown by a top class doo man and fellow LSC member

Owen, I have just returned from a club meeting where we were having a chat about this thread , i have also been having read through all of this material again and having a think about how this debate ever got to the level where you and I are basically slinging mud at each other. Although I did not agree with some of your views the debate had remained fairly civil up until around post 61, when Bigda entered the arena , although he is entitled to his opinions the same as anyone else you will have gathered by now that much of what he writes is not accurate, you might not agree with that but that's what I think , it pains me to write this on an open forum but in his case and one other local on here who will remain nameless I have to admit that I do find it difficult to contain myself and they both bring out the worst in me which usually results in the discussion ending up as a farce, otherwise if I decide to contribute to any subject then it is usually at a sensible and civil level, as I said having discussed this with some other fanciers tonight then I was given some advice by another basics member who is a regular contributor on this forum who has refused to answer or acknowledge any of Bigda,s posts for the last two years, I have decided to follow his example so from me to Bigda it's over and out. When I entered this debate I did so with an open mind with intention of contributing positively and constructively, however somewhere along the line both you and me have been side tracked away from the issues at hand into a myre of sarcasm which I am sure you will agree is the lowest form of wit, I think both of us have to accept some of the responsibility for this. Having considered your last post above then Alf,s situation puts things into perspective, i also agree that basically you don't know much about me and likewise I know very little about you other than what I have read on this and other threads on Basics, perhaps we are not that different and at the end of the day have the best interests of the pigeons at heart, contrary to what you may think , and although I am certainly no shrinking violet , I personally do not enjoy confrontation , i get enough of this at work and can do without it during my leisure time even though at times this is unavoidable, so I will make you an offer, why don't you and I bury the hatchet and settle our differences, we might not agree on some things but I promise if I do contribute anything further to this debate then it will be constructive, that way if we do bump into one another at Blackpool for instance , then rather than have a brawl maybe I can buy you a pint, let me know what you think. Davie

I.B. well constructed and very informative post

Bigda, good one, even I had to laugh at a that

Well said Danny , more -------------------- unsubstantiated nonsense from you, Owen please forgive me for the sarcasm which is not directed at you, but i can't contain myself, your friend Bigda is more or less calling you a monkey !!!

, i also believe the water tank broke enroute to another race pointif horse racing guys want to win races, they don't change its water and they don't use french tap water, they bring there own with them, and back to the camping out,with the national, we go at our own peril with them, as we have to endure 5-7 day hold overs, where as if we go it alone as we should, we could come back up the road at will. when cost is not the problem but for the sake of 25 fanciers in the lanarkshire that then have about 12 birds each to play about with thoughts of wonder trying to win a national, that equates to the tail wagging the dog, so for a couple of distance doos we the lanarkshire are getting a raw deal we have our own distance races to contend with we do not need to be doing the endurance test with our birds, duplication seem to be the big chief word now. but spun and made out we cant afford to go it on our own which is a load of old tosh. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bigda, Just in case anyone thinks i am being sarcastic towards you i will try to answer your points in as nice a manner as possible. No1 Why would you want to be at Viewpark on a Friday night ---- this has absolutely nothing to do with your club already having their crates within their shed or the fact that they may have purchased crates of their own to donate back to the fed , which i might add was supposed to be a gesture of good will so you really should not be casting this up on here,the fact remains that the Fed transporters and trailers arrive at viewpark where in addition to Uddingstons and other clubs birds being loaded then crates have to be moved around so that the convoy can travel with either one or two trailers left behind or indeed both of these and a transporter left behind once the distance increases,its left to same guys to do this every week and i personally have helped with this on a number of occasions,you are as responsible for this work as any other Fed member but i dont ever recall seeing you preset. No2 Aircon,----- again can reiterate where i was challenging you on my post,you said that each fed in the UK should carry water for both drinking and Aircon, and i responded by saying that aircon does not consume water, i then told you that Lanarkshire transporters did not have Aircon, i was only pointing out that in fact water does not have to be loaded to support aircon which obviously you thought was a requirement, it is not in the absence of a need to humidify. Ypres, Water , SNFC ---- If i recall correctly then the SNFC have never in fact had a 5 day hold over at Ypres as all races from this race point have been very succsessfull, i am sure you are getting mixed up with Lanarkshire Feds Carentan race of 2012 where their was a lengthy holdover, again if my memory is accurate then this race had nothing at all to do with the SNFC, it was run by Lanarkshire Fed who hired a modern transporter with aluminium crates from another organisation,with regards the water, you said that the temperature was 40oC which is very hot, personally i dont recall this as i thought the reason for this holdover was due to bad weather, never the less having been held over for 5 days then i imagine their is every possibility that they could have run out of water and would have needed to fill the tanks, you then asked was this proper water, drinking water, or tap water, i thought all of these were the same thing and would have been suitable as drinking water for pigeons even if it was french water, better that than no water at all, so in the instance we did not go at our peril with the national as the race was organised by Lanarkshire Fed, in addition to this you are aware that a liberation was not possible and the birds had to be brought back home, the only comments i ever recall when fanciers got their birds back were complimentary to the effect that the birds were in fact in super condition which i am sure anyone who had birds at this race will confirm, this only corroborates my view that modern transporters with aluminium crates are vastly superior to anything we have previously had in years gone by. SNFC and Federation duplication ------ Again if my memory is accurate from our race programme agm which i dont think you attended ?? then the intention for season 2014 is that Lanarkshire will only convoy to one race with the SNFC that being Ypres, this will hopefully allow the dog to wag the tail which you want. To conclude, much of the above is from memory so if i have got anything wrong then please accept my apologies in advance, however i do hope that this script demonstrates how posts can be interpreted incorrectly by anyone from outwith a local area when much of what the author has written is a ------------- we will leave it at unsubstantiated for your benefit Owen, and thats my only hint of sarcasm here, the local guys will draw their own conclusions Davie

Owen, my, my, it's all getting a bit personal, you obviously don't like your theories being challenged , with regards Bigda you are correct of course, their was a thinly veiled hint of sarcasm in my response to him for which i offer my apologies,he is entitled to his opinion the same as anyone else, it's just that I find that most of what he writes is ...., lets call it unsubstantiated , others might call it something else but I will leave it at unsubstantiated, I'm sure that anyone who knows both me and him can draw their own conclusions and I'm sure you must find it reassuring that you have at least on supporter in Bigda. With regards yourself, up until this point I don't think at any juncture during this debate have I been disrespectful to you, however it would now appear having read the above post that you want to reduce this debate to a personal feud, having considered this can I refer you to your post No5 where you said ---- if pigeon fanciers choose to ignore the facts then I think they are both stupid and irresponsible ----- and also your post No 50 where you said ---- there are times when I think I must be speaking a foreign tongue --- then in my opinion you are inferring that pigeon fanciers don't have the mentality to understand what you are saying and as such you are displaying a distinct lack of respect for the fancy at large , these statements from yourself and your less than complimentary remarks about my character from the above post bring any hint of sarcasm from me into context from which anyone on basics can draw their own conclusions, however IMO your own thinly veiled brand of sarcasm demonstrates a severe case of , and I quote, THE POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK. Davie

Danny, as per your normal you come on and give us the benefit of your wisdom when in fact you have no idea what you are talking about, lets get one point straight, all of the modern transporters that I have seen to date in fact do not have air conditioning, they have temp controlled mechanical ventilation which is an entirely different thing,this includes our own Geraldys in Lanarkshire and the NFC where I suggest you should read the link I added on my last post. Even if they did have aircon then in my experience having worked in the industry for 40+ years then i have never come across a packaged system that would consume water where there was no need to humidify which is the case on a pigeon transporter, FYI aircon when deployed actually produces water as condense which has to be rejected as waste and is an inherent problem within the industry. Additionally if you had ever been at Uddingston on a Friday night shuffling crates around two transporters and two trailers at 22:00 hours then you would already know that the water tanks are all filled here before the units depart to the race point. Davie

My link Guys Never done this before on an iPad so hoping this link works which details the design criteria for the NFC new transporter

Owen When I can find an hour to spare I will get back to you on your points, I am a very busy man, however just to keep you going I had read Proffesor Kettlewells report on the NFC transporter long before you ever mentioned it and it only compliments everything I have said regards modern transporters, they are vastly superior to anything we have had before, and their is no air conditioning, FYI, neither am I easily put off its finding time that's the issue with me.

Exactly, and their are thousands upon thousands of the barstwards.

Great performances Michael and look the birdages all in the 7K,s, those days are long gone and never to return

Forgot to include BOP which could be the single most importand contributory factor to bad returns.

Owen, you are on about facts and opinions, to quote yourself from an earlier post this thread ( If pigeon fanciers choose to ignore the proven facts then I think they are both irresponsible an stupid ) having again read through your posts on this thread and your letter in the BHW can you advise what you have offered up that is FACTUAL with regards the environmental conditions within a modern transporter, as far as I can see you have only offered up your own personal opinions, the same as anyone else on Basics to which they are entitled, this does not make them stupid or irresponsible. To conclude, whilst i commend your commitment and enthusiasm and wish you well with your investigation and agree that areas within our own control should be investigated in the first instance i think you also have to consider the very real possibility that the losses you describe may in FACT be completely unrelated to modern transporters, i am not saying that i have any more answers to this problem than yourself but on this point I will give you a few other well documented areas to consider, inferior pigeons, unhealthy pigeons, pigeons with compromised immune systems due to drug abuse, pigeons not basket trained,solar flares,sun spots,K index, ozone layer depletion, changing weather patterns, mobile phone, satellite tv , wireless broadband transmissions, defence early warning systems, airport radar, etc,etc, all of which could have a major influence on the ability of our pigeons to safely return to their lofts, with regards the items directly related to the birds then these are within our control, however with regards what is in the atmosphere then these issues are certainly above my intellect level, I don't know about yours. Davie