some really good tips , im sure all you members with the old back pain knows exactlywhat its like [ words wouldnt describe it ;D ;D ;D] ,, got the grain bag as a pillow ,, it does help [ allways handy if i run out of grub too ;D]] now the tai treatment ;D well ;D,, its advanced ankylosing spondulitis which i have had for 20 years ,, but far worse now,, causing more probs than just the back ,,leaking valve in the heart etc etc etc [last few days , bad nights ] but afer medication [dont drink now a good few years, so cant have a nip ]and wired up ;D to tens machine, heat pads etc , i come round a bit ;D ;D ;D ;D,, but by the time ive did all this its time for bed again ;D ;D ;D,, good luck to all the other members in "the sore back club" ;D ;D ;D,,,,,,,just apply for back money ;D