Rooster J. Cogburn

"J. Reid, Stenhousemuir, Stirlingshire John Reid has developed one of the most consistent winning families What we are concerned with is the breeding lines behind all these successes. It mainly derives from three stock pairs, 3766 and 3581; the Marien pair, 2109 and 644; and a pair bred by J. Gillespie of Airdrie, 8321 and 8217. It will be seen from the pedigrees that follow that these three pairs, each inbred and linebred in themselves, were totally unrelated. Every mating between the respective progeny therefore would be the result of a first outcross which as we have seen repeated, usually described the parentage of outstanding champions-when successful at all, which obviously can be but seldom or our lofts would be full of ‘champions’ and therefore not ‘outstanding. No.1 pair (mated by John Reid in 1937) Cock-3766, black ch. Bred by McIntyre Bros of Meikle-drumgray, Airidrie, perhaps the most consistent prize winner in pre-war Scottish Nationals. Sire:5101 B ch, 20th SNFC Rennes 1935 on day of toss, 548 miles, from a Nantes prize-winner x a daughter of the McIntyre’s Berry (Macclesfield) pair, the Osman family with which Berry won the Manchester F.C Gold Cup etc. 5101, with two other similarly bred cocks won about £200 in 1935 from Dol, Rennes and Nantes.. Dam: a B ch hen lost in the 1936 Rennes disaster: from a Moss cock flown Nantes x 4743 B Ch Hen five times over 500 miles winner of 8th SNFC Rennes in 1937 Hen of No.1 pair – 3581 B. Ch flown Rennes three times and winner of prizes at all stages. Dam and granddam of numerous winners Sire: 5707, from 5531 x 2152, the champion hen, five times 530 miles, winner of over £300, bred by Cope of Congleton.5531froma mother and son mating, 1980 x 2339. This pair descends from birds bred by the late Col. A. H Osman and feature 73 x 2569; it was claimed that this pair was the best stock pair in Britain. However that may be it is undeniable that they bred an extraordinary number of winners from 500 miles in Manchester F.C competitions and in the classics: their fame being such that their descendants went into many of the leading lofts in various parts of the country. Dam: 4167/33 red, prize-winner to 375miles from 2797 x 829. 2797 bred by Dr W. E Barker, winner of several prizes as were his brothers and sisters, and also sire of winners including Dr Barkers 5th Federation Nantes: from 3497 x 2657. 3497 bred by F.W Marriot from 619 x Repetition, 1st National San Sebastian 1936. 619 from ‘Triumph’ 1st National San Sebastian 1925 x W. M Gaze’s Logan hen 103, sent to Marriot for this mating, she was sister to J.W Logan’s 69, 19th NFC San Sebastian and the mother of Billy Gaze’s famous ‘Shiek’ family of winners in the east Anglian Championship club. 2657, flown Nantes from 6257 x 1758. 6257 from Osman’s 1892 x 1864. 1758 from 1s0 x 1694 (both Osman) was described by Dr Barker as the most successful stock hen he had ever possessed. 829 from 2016 x 2339 the Osman stock hen in the pedigree of the sire of 3581 above. 2016 a great winner, three times 55miles winning £150 No.2 pair: The Marien, 2109 and 644 2109/38, White Cock, bred by Buckley of Radcliffe from 6269532/28 B. Ch pied, and a daughter of 6269532 when mated to A. Hitchen’s Marien hen. Another close mating producing a successful stock pigeon- this time father to daughter. 644/42 blue hen bred by J. Mansfield of Stockport from 328 x 318. 328 from 1044401 x 6104649 both bred by Marien. 318 from 6333106 x 6345066, both bred by Marien. 644 had produced winners in the Manchester F.C for her breeder before John Reid purchased her. The Marien pair have bred winners every year of their breeding for John Reid and others. They are grandparents of 1278, 1279 and 1275 three of the birds clocked by Reid in the 1950 Rennes national and two other Rennes arrival also descend from them. Duncan Ogilvie of Stirling is one of several fanciers with good wins by descendants of this pair as his 18th open Wigan Young winner of £40 and also his winner of £116 in the Scottish national Rennes. No.3 Pair: The Gillespies-8321 and 8217. 8321/ 48, the red cock bred by J. Gillespie of Airdrie from 1914 x 7609. 1914, 1st Open Penrith, 1st Open Dorchester and twice Guernsey and Rennes: from 746 x 2746 Bricoux. 7609 sister to 12602 11th Open Rennes 1947, 88th Open Guernsey 1948 etc, from 1264 x 2022. 746 from 923 x 580. 2746 wond 2nd Worchester, 1st Cheltenham and and 2nd Norton Fitzwarren 1942: 13th open Cheltenham 1943 and 1st open all pools and nomination SHU charity race, Stoke Cannon 1944. 1264 bred by Dr. Anderson, son of champion Le Fynen. 2022 from 1045 x 2502. 923, 5th Open Weymouth: 12th Dol SCC, all pools and nomination 1938 and 22nd Open Rennes national 1939. 580 127th open SNFC Rennes 1939; 1045. Three times Rennes and twice Nantes x 503 9th and 1st Open SNFC Nantes 1932,1933. 2502, sister to H. Scott’s (Markinch) 4th national Rennes 1939. 8217, the hen of the No.3 pair, B. Ch bred by J. Gillespie from 1573 x 25 1573, stock from 1045(which occurs twice in eh pedigree of the cock of the pair x 16 25, B Ch bred by Dr Anderson from Champion Le Fynen x 76. They are the parents of John Reid’s 166/48 Red Cheq hen winner of 1st Section, 2nd Open SNFC Rennes 1950 and £243. The Gillespie pair have produced many other good ones, including fifteen parents of 1st prize-winners, when mated with descendants of the other two pairs or a daughter of F. W Marriot’s 1951 Lerwick winners. Incidentally A. Grassam 4th Section,11th Open Rennes National and £324 is a half-brother to 8321 the cock of the No.3 pair, whilst W. Turner’s (Camelon) 1st Section 4th Rennes national and £230 is a grandson of the No.2 pair. But John Reid regards the best son of the No.1 pair as the most successful stock cock he has ever had. This was 7712, a prize-winner in the 1939 Rennes National. The cessation of continental racing during the war may have been a blessing in disguise, for 7712, kept at home as a breeder was the biggest single factor in the post-war success of the John Reid team and several other lofts. 2234 a grandson of 7712, flew in five national and won prizes in four of them, including three times Nantes 618miles. The nest mate to 2234 was clocked on the day from Charleroi, winning 2nd National. It is easy to realise why the name of John Reid of Stenhousemuir stands so high in Scotland and elsewhere and it will be noted that his team is built upon two other great Scottish National names-McIntyre and Gillespie. Then of course the Marien pair It is instructive to note too that each of these pairs had to justify itself independently by the performances of its progeny before being cross in with other to become part of the strain John Reid has developed. This naturally is the tale of the successes. How many other pairs were tried and failed to ‘qualify’ we can only guess. Selection is the essence of breeding success and John Reid is one of the masters of the art."

Brendan Rodgers did say there is 'hunger' and an 'appetite' in his dressing room

Well done the PB winners What direction were the Lanarkshire birds coming out of ?? Saw a lot of birds between 11 and 12 and thought they'd maybe be Glasgow or Lanarkshire birds, was nice to watch as usually the only birds on race days we see are our own. Looking forward to our kick off next week will be our first race using ETS, so it will be a bit nervy. Have only ever seen it fail at one fanciers loft, and that was a freak occurrence, I'm sure theres nothing to worry about

You're a bit far off the mark their Derek, I've been involved in pigeon politics for a few months now and think I need to bow out gracefully in the near future and try and win some doo races Best of luck with yer 2013 campaign. I'm sure I'll see yer name on the national results

Brilliant I've an old article he wrote back in the early 80s I'll give you through, I'm sure the man was a clairvoyant or a psychic as well as a pigeon man

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Think I'm maybe a bit too young for that Derek, maybe I should get the flying Delorean to 88mph and go back and speak to the man who took the SNFC President post in his 20s for some advice on how he spoke to his peers

I'm actually 23 Derek , but age is irrelevant when it comes to opinion on transporting birds and the SNFC website. The word transparency has been used a lot on here and its a word only used by some when it suits them. Reading certain fanciers posts as a collective,not individually and knowing some of their views from conversations with people or hearing them talk at meetings I have come to a couple of conclusions. I'm sure I won't be the only one that is aware of the real agendas behind the comments. I don't think an up to date SNFC website would do any harm, I just don't think it's of great benefit regardless of whether or not it's 2013 or 1913. Lastly I don't view myself as an old hand or a traditionalist, these are other peoples words not mines. There are a number of old hands and traditionalists I admire for their achievements in pigeons or just because I like them as people and I listen to them before I make up my mind if I agree or disagree with what they say. I agree with yourself and Gareth on as many points as I disagree with you on and I don't feel the need to justify myself further or fall out because I don't agree with you on this one.

Can't see what's baffling about what was posted? I can assure you it was me that posted it. The quality of transportation the SNFC have used in recent years is not an issue for me. When wickers baskets are used and good racing is had transportation is never mentioned, when it's a bad race from the same baskets on the same transporter then the cries of poor transportation can be heard all over. As for the website I genuinely don't believe it would do a great deal in promoting the national winners. The SNFC have a PRO who gives good coverage in the fancy press, in fact the Scottish National coverage in the pigeon papers is the envy of many fanciers racing in organisations that can send 10 times as many birds to their races. I have this on quote I suppose it could be used for online auctions. Is this a good thing? That's another thing that could be looked at two ways

Interesting thread and a number of conflicting views and interests I for one have only ever had birds in wicker race baskets and have no axes to grind with it at all. Some say it's went from being the greatest club to the worst, a sleeping giant, a disgrace etc etc. To me Aluminium crates and up to date websites would go no way to improving the club or the pigeons. If I want to see pictures of the winners I need only refer to my year book. In days gone by (when the club was considered great) 100s of birds were being clocked from France their was no mention of aluminium crates. A lot of suggested changes for the sake of it and they in no way would improve the club or quality of racing. Ask yourself what differences have occurred within the club over the last 15-20years; race programme etc. add to this the changing interests of the Scottish fancy, dwindling memberships and political agendas then you'll get a bit closer as to why people can say the club is on it's ar*se compared to yesteryear.

Bit of a doo that Danny

Interesting looking back these old lofts the number of times it crops up that birds have scored on the North and South road. Another thing that stands out is the number of foundation birds that have multiple 500-600+ mile performances under their belt and in the case of the Belfast loft mentioned in this extract, there's an interesting story here. A lot of the old 'foundation' pigeons in Ireland were Belgian birds brought into the ports in Belfast when it was at the helm of the linen trade. The Ulster fanciers who worked in the area would gather and view the birds as you would a sale today. If they showed an interest in a bird their name was put to it and the bird released. If the bird returned to its home in Belgium it was brought over again on another ship and the fancier that fancied it paid his guineas for it Essentially a lot of the old Irish 'strains' were built on birds that could fly 500-600miles on their own across two stretches of sea.

R. Leishman and sons,Douglas Water, Lanarkshire They founded their loft during the war years almost entirely upon three birds purchased from the late H. R Keer of Ipswich, two of them direct, prior to his death, and a further cock at the dispersal sale after his death. During the war they built up a family almost entirely from these three pigeons, as the pedigree of one of their champions will show. As soon as channel racing resumed after the war they were out to the test in the Scottish National from Rennes St. Jacques. There were only four birds of the family old enough- three years- and they were all sent. All four birds were in the prize list. Since then Leishman and sons have never been out the Scottish National prizes. Their biggest winner is the red cheq hen 4323, bred in 1949. She has wn in Scottish national races alone, in prizes and pools a total of £813. In 1952 she was 25th Section, 37th open Rennes; 1953-41st Section, 50th Open Rennes;1954- 3rd section, 25th Open Rennes. The three Keer pigeons were:- A- N.U.H.W 42 N 969,cock B- N.U.H.W 43 V 1174, hen, from 8778 x 8756. 8788 from 66 x 55. 8756 from 7 x 53. 66 from 281 x 266. 55 from 17325 x 7115, both Delmottes from J.G. Galway, Belfast. 281 from 3882 x 291, both bred from LIVE WIRE, the mealy hen at the base of Keer’s LIVE WIRE family-dam of SURE THING( Lerwick and San Sebastian in the same season) etc. LIVE WIRE was hatched from a Lulham egg and founded a remarkable family of long distance pigeons. C- (purchased at the dispersal sale) NUHW 42 N 4373, cock from 7834 x 887. 7834 sib if 352 “ GOOD THING†winner if the Aberdeen youngbird smash for Keer. As well as the LIVE WIRE and Delmotte family, Keer also had a famous Osman Pair responsible for four N.H.U Gold medal winners and a share in the breeding of Hardcastle’s National winner Coronation Queen. The pedigree of Leishman’s 4323, already referred to is interesting as showing how they founded a winning family upon the three birds A,B and C reference. 4323 from 2080/48 x 2082/48 2080 57th Section, 123rd Open SNFC Rennes 1951 from 6070/47 x 6075/ 47 2082 14th Section, 28th open SNFC Rennes and 8th section,14th open SNFC Rennes 1952; from Ref C x ref B 6070, 32nd open SNFC Nantes 1951, 3rd Section 14th Open SNFC Nantes 1952 and 12th section, 39th open SNFC Nantes 1953; from 37093/44 x 6741/45 6075 from 6742/45 x 6731/45 daughter of A and B reference. 6742 5th Section, 8th open SNFC Guernsey 1948 37093 from A and B reference, 6741 from 8295/44 son of A and B reference. How the late Harold Keer would have rejoiced in the success of this closely bred family of his founding.

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Sure he was 11th open with a bird that had been at Rennes fer a 'pipe opener' before hand

The clubs at the time were Airth & district Alva Avonbridge Bannockburn Camelon Clackmannan Falkirk Grangemouth Laurieston Maddiston Menstrie Plean Sauchie Shieldhill Stenhousemuir Stirling Strathearn Tillicoutry Tullibody

Real doos these ones Cracking photos, thank you for sharing them. I've a wee bit here on the Leishman family of Douglas Water as well. It's a bit on the lengthy side, but I'll have a go at posting it later. Superb fanciers

Unreal Walter Think it was a UK record held until recently when Brian Denny clocked one from 748 miles on the day May be wrong with this one though Superb

W. D is the man to ask about Andra. Jock Lamond is still on the stoat, down the Blackston road I've the Rennes Shield in the house here and Andra won it in 1984,1988 and 1992

The Jas mentioned passed away a while back Stuart. He was a top flier in his own right and joint ,since the 70s, 2nd place for Avonbridge( with the great Youngs) number of Combined average wins. Some ar* ehole McCalley has won it more times . I believe Jas was also 2nd Open SNFC YB national, he returned from the bookmakers to find the bird clingin ion to the dowelling on the front of the loft. I vaguely remember Jas Johnston but I was an infant at the time when he was helping his nephew, Jim Smith, with the birds- " the drinks are on the Black cock"

When I was a boy of 15 my father and I laid a rose bed for an old fancier friend,Alex Mitchell of Falkirk. The year prior we had just timed our first ever pigeon from the SNFC Gold Cup-La Ferte Bernard 2004, the year of Reekie. We clocked at 2159 to finish 33rd open, but that’s another story. Alex was a man who had finished 8th Open Rennes with a pigeon bred by his good friend Jake Burrell. I spent the afternoon with Alex and he told me to the day how Jake set down his pigeons for Rennes( I Still have the notes I made to this day )and he was adamant Jake was the greatest fancier bar none to fly pigeons from France into Scotland. I have come by an old book from one of my great friends in the sport, Davie Young, and in it there is a small feature on the Burrells of Douglas Water. “This is the loft “up a wee glenâ€, it is one of the many small teams scattered throughout the Scottish lowlands which regularly appear, year after year, in the Scottish Nationals and other cross channel classics. One of their best wins was in 1948 in Combine 2- bird limit race from Guernsey, When their ‘Glen Rose’ was 1st and only bird on day of toss. Her pedigree reveals the basis of the team. Glen Rose 2, D Ch hen 2041, bred 1946. Sire-Glen Hero, 7084/36 24th Open Rennes National 1939 and many other wins, from 8750 X 11511. 8750 bred by O. W Wells from an E. J Spare pair 8659 ( Son of White Knight) x 9985 flown Bordeaux goes back to ‘Old 19’ Pae and Pattern- N Barkers. 11511 from 1277 x 105 bred by D W. Hall. 1277 D ch pied, bred and flown Rennes twice, from a J. O Allen pair (N. Barker) 105 Eardley; Putman and R Dunn’s Toft, J. O Allen and the Hansenne cock Wonwell. Dam- Glen Rose, Red Grizzle, 7054, winner of 3rd open Rennes National 1030 and 15th Lanarks Fedn. Open Guernsey 1938. Bred 1936 from the stock pair 5483 and 10315 ( 3 times Rennes and Nantes, 600 miles) parents of 3 birds to win a total of £400 in Scottish National. 5483 from 7532 x Glen lass, winner of 108th open Rennes National 1930. 7532 bred by Dr Hall from a son of his A and B refs. Pair bred by S. P Griffiths ( g’son of the 500 mile champions 6979 and 459) out of a Logan-Osman hen. Glen lass fron 1277 x Red Fril 1736 bred by J. Bone, strain N. Barker. If Carried carried further back this family traces from J. O Allen on almost every line. “ More to come, as this book also feature champions from; Stenhousemuir,Stirling,Avonbridge, Slammannan and various Solway,Lanarkshire, North and East of Scotland greats.

Some fantastic posts. W.D perhaps has it spot on and an attempt at 'unification' for the longest race could be an option? Echoing what Midnight Son and others have said. I had a conversation with a local fancier who I admire greatly and he reckoned it's a one day race, made into a two day race(in our area anyway) Perhaps if it carried the title of 'Gold Cup' it would encourage fanciers to send their best and not their B team or 'last chancers'. Recently the likes of the Combe partnership and Jock King have shown timing on the night,flying 600+, can be done. Birds that always amazed me were Albert Bruce's 'North Queen' and Wilson Noble's 'Black Rocket'-Rennes,663 miles, on the day into Fraseburgh over 17 hours on the wing.

I remember reading about the likes of ‘Trail’s Spark’, ‘Nancy’, ‘Rowena’ , ‘Westbound’ as well as looking through the pedigree of John Ellis’ ‘Nantes Hen’ and thinking one day I’d like to have a bash at this race. It’s amazing looking at the fanciers and pigeons who fly a minimum of 600 miles from the French races; the ground pigeons in the calibre of; ‘5 O’clock Rock’,’ Donnan’, ‘Heather’s Dream’ and ‘Marlene’s Girl’ would have covered flying alone is staggering. Birds in this class possess arguably the most phenomenal instinct in all of nature and are as close to the fulfilment of athletic potential in an animal that you’re likely to come across. This season I hope to give the Tours race a go and it will be a first attempt at trying to clock from a distance in excess of 600 miles. What experiences have you had competing from this kind of distance? How were your birds prepared? How were your candidates chosen? Will the SNFC longest race ever rise again? Can it be made more attractive or will it steadily dwindle into nothingness ?

Will be interesting to see how the bird turns out. Has it been injured? I've a 'first' this season. I'm dealing with a 2010 bred blue pied hen that was sent to Clermont in July 2011,but did not turn up until August 2012. She narrowly missed assassination off the top of the loft,as my first impression was that a feral pigeon had landed with the birds. The rubber ring perished when touched, webbing on the flights was almost non existent and just generally a mess. The pigeon received no special treatment and has had as good a moult as any pigeon in the loft. I'll be interested to see how this pans out also, as on paper this bird is as "well bred" as we have.