MAN WITH NO BIRDS

[frank-123]

If I read it correctly, on the day of the alleged offence the guy was filmed but didn't take his clock in! How then can cheating on that occasion be proved without clock records?

 

Phil

 

on that occasion he never returned his clock but the weeks before he did only the week he spotted the guys watching him did his clock fail to turn up i am led to believe

[micko and jack]

THIS IS NOT A POP AT ANY ONE PERSON

but as they say if the shoe fits wear it

I have contributed to a number of posts "the kirby club " "man with no birds" to name but two and as I have said its like Déjà vu I even give the meaning of that phrase

Déjà vu is the experience of feeling sure that one has witnessed or experienced a new situation previously

all these posts and contributions and some like myself know nothing about what's going on apart from what we are reading here as gangster has said in his post if you have the evidence put it out there let US ALL see what's going on here all this sniping and back biting is not in my opinion doing the sport of pigeon racing any good and i dont race but reguard myself as being part of this sport  just read some of the posts on this thread if there is a bad person what do you do sale all your birds get out of the sport ??? if you do that YOU are the one that loses  my fantail are like part of the family they belong to jacks my grandson and myself that's something we share and I hope that will be the case for a long long time but both my daughters and my wife come out to see the birds everytime they are out if I'm unwell and unable to see to the birds one of my daughters scrape the loft change the water and feed the birds even remembering to rattle the tin with some corn before feeding

what you do is get evidence  confront the person force him to resign or take legal or make your evidence public and publicly embarrass them that way the pigeon fanciers can ostracize them if you have something to say SAY IT AND STAND OVER IT don't be giving us the story in dribs and drabs if your man or woman  enough as gangster said PUT IT OUT THERE FOR US ALL TO SEE

I for one am sick sore and tired of it every time I log on

I think its time to put up or shut up

or

 

please please give us a break micko

[I]

what I am having difficulty in understanding here is the claims being made by some of these men of integrity and maybe my stand point is different to others but i will explain. as the claims state "he has been at it for years" etc etc now if a man with even a ounce of self respect and integrity knew another was cheating or at it for years why  on earth would he continue to send his birds to the same racepoints on the same transporter as the person he knows is at it. because if this individual is at it then surely by sending your birds and paying your pool money you are hypocrites. your bird is beat before the strings are cut and you still send.  Maybe if enough of you were men enough to make a stand and say no i am not sending until this matter is cleared up one way or another it would not have rumbled on this long.

 

Just look at the fortunes of both flying clubs this week one breaking new ground with its transport plans, an organisation on the up in all departments, forward thinking with what can only be described as a great club spirit within. Then read this thread about the other, the snfc was a club you would have been proud to belong too a few years ago but recently it is a laughing stock staggering from one crisis to another without any direction and totally devoid of leadership. my old partner now calls it the inland national, but he liked the water races and we only started racing when we hit the coast for him.

 

something needs to be done one way or the other but will it.

[me]

ive bieng trying to win a SNFC section for years lost good pigeons along the way a to to think what that cheating bas;;;d is getting away with makes  you want to pack it all up

 

If you feel that way about the birds you probably should! No other pigeon fancier no matter what you think of him or her is responsible for your failure.

 

 

[Guest Gareth Rankin]

 

Its gone out of control, Mick, and a lot of people are being damaged.

 

Remember please that this started the way it has continued, when Gareth put a letter into SNFC reporting rumours - yes rumours - surrounding the man, and asked for an official investigation to CLEAR - yes clear - the man's name.

 

I honestly don't know what the official findings were, but the man is still a member is an official and is the PRO. So would suggest that says something positive?

 

What has happened now is that one individual new to the Fed took it upon themselves to investigate the man, and for 2 weeks videod alone from a neighbours garden. Then from following week sought other witnesses (2). No crime or complaint had been made at Fed level - after the National problem last year, the man and his table were elected back into office - unanimously - at the Fed AGM.

 

Unfortunately, this isn't an official investigation, and the person does have an issue with the man, so there's perhaps another motive behind it. You cannot go off videoing folk, its against their rights, and even police carrying out covert surveillence of this type need the Chief Constable to sign it off. They have broken Article 8, so its inadmissable.

 

There's also the question of safe custody of the evidence - what happened to the recording medium between filming, who vouched for it? One tape or many?

 

There's also question of identity of birds in video. How do you connect the video with the bird in the clock?

 

And lastly, if you suspect what you've seen is wrong, you report it to the Fed right away. You don't let it go on wek after week after week.

 

There's more, but thats enough.

 

Reply to para 2 and 3

 

You are correct why i put a letter in Ian, but when the outcome was in the presidents own words we cant find his bird on the transporter because we cant find his basket which was followed by the president lying, followed by threats of litigation by Gibson the Vice president at that time, followed by Gibson getting nominated back on the committee by the president of the SNFC even though at that time Mr Gibson was still threatening litigation against the SNFC  > >:(is it any wonder i am pleased that these ordinary fanciers took it on themselves to investigate him this year and protect the integrity of the sport when at the same time spineless people like yourself criticise from there armchair people who are willing to put there neck on the block to seek truth and justice.

 

As for the rest of the paragraphs well all i can say to it is no wonder our sport is going down the swanny with people like yourself willing to protect a cheat who has now been caught by members of his own federation, also what is all this about article 8 and admissable evidence are you forgetting something ian in this sport that i have a deep love and passion for it is a amateur sport which is built apon many things which includes Sportsmanship, honesty and INTEGRITY which has been lacking from your good friend and his associates.

 

 

 

 

[Roland]

Seems like stirring murcky waters Vic at best... Could it be someone is trying to revive what has already run it's course elsewhere?

Me, well not interested in mind games, inuendo's and guessing.... I've had too many dinners that smelt different from the taste.

[hepste]

I know nothing about this case whatsoever, but find it an interesting thread.  I agree that evidence obtained illegally is inadmissable in court.  However, it surely does not stop an organisation requesting an explanation (verbal or written) in respect of such evidence from the alleged offender.  Eg., "On 27th June 2008 you were found in the possession of a gold watch property of AN other - what is your explanation?"  The reply is legitimate evidence isn't it?

[OLDYELLOW]

sounds to me that the said fancier in question alegidly clocked in with no race birds home , surely this will lead to ets been the way to trap as rings are more secure than a rubber , obviously you know how they are, and its sad that there is this type of person in our sport , i hope the officals deal with this but i think its a hard one to prove , many fanciers dont bring there clocks in when have either missed or were out of good flying time , there are more questions than answers to this , maybe there should be a rule that all clocks must be return to marking station whether striked or not failure to do so , would result in all previous races that season be disqualified. But there is also the other side of the coin , would this fancier now get a fair hearing as it has already got out and public knowledge.

[maverick]

WE SHOULD BE PRAISING THESE MEN WHO HAVE PUT THERE HEADS ON THE BLOCK NOT KNOCKING THEM, LETS GET IT ALL OUT IN THE OPEN AND GET THIS MAN (whos results in the last 3 years would make him the greatest distance flyer in the WORLD ) BROUGHT TO JUSTICE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. AND IN MY OPINION ALL THOSE WHO HAVE HELPED THIS CHEAT AS THE DAMAGE HE HAS DONE COULD NOT BE DONE ALONE.             GOOD WORK LADS KEEP IT UP AND HELP CLEAR OUT THE DIRT IN OUR SPORT.

[I]

I agree with the sentiments that there can be no place in our sport for cheats and their assistants but please remember you must follow the proper procedure and cross all the t`s and dot all the i`s. There are so many different stories of what he is supposed to have done and how he is supposed to have done it, they cant all be true. If he is flying to another loft where is it nobody has mentioned this if the rubbers were handed back by whom...? when you make accusations you must have all the facts and all the answers because if not you are just speculating.

 

now before anyone jumps all over me here i have not seen the evidence nor do i know the man in question and have an open mind on the whole issue but i will say this again you must follow the correct procedures. this must start at club level then fed then union, now it looks from what gareth is saying that the flying club have washed their hands of it or are either afraid to tackle the issue which has angered the members. the nw fed officials look as if they are following the stance of the flying club and hoping it all washes out again to the anger of its members.

 

where it all ends nobody knows, but nobody wins, flying club name and reputation in the gutter, club and fed name in the gutter, man involved name and reputation in the gutter, fanciers in scotland ...............you guessed it.

[p charlton]

I dont know much about whats going on but the cheat should be out no matter what. hes been caught twice?? whys he still on the committe have other members got something to hide madness

[hepste]

I agree with the sentiments that there can be no place in our sport for cheats and their assistants but please remember you must follow the proper procedure and cross all the t`s and dot all the i`s. There are so many different stories of what he is supposed to have done and how he is supposed to have done it, they cant all be true. If he is flying to another loft where is it nobody has mentioned this if the rubbers were handed back by whom...? when you make accusations you must have all the facts and all the answers because if not you are just speculating.

 

now before anyone jumps all over me here i have not seen the evidence nor do i know the man in question and have an open mind on the whole issue but i will say this again you must follow the correct procedures. this must start at club level then fed then union, now it looks from what gareth is saying that the flying club have washed their hands of it or are either afraid to tackle the issue which has angered the members. the nw fed officials look as if they are following the stance of the flying club and hoping it all washes out again to the anger of its members.

 

where it all ends nobody knows, but nobody wins, flying club name and reputation in the gutter, club and fed name in the gutter, man involved name and reputation in the gutter, fanciers in scotland ...............you guessed it.

 

Agree wholehartedly with above.  One thing is for sure.  If you don't do everything by the book, and you leave an escape route, a cheat aint going to stop cheating, but he'll be a whole lot wiser, and more difficult to catch the next time!

 

[Guest bigda]

has the feud ended, as yet,  or are  there charges to be answered to  in  court, by the snfc,  or the Shu, or is it just a civil case to answer, at present if the case is going no further then  accept the case not proven, and get on with it  and take your stands  to the club that you support, as this has to stop now

before it festers, there are one"s who are wallowing in the  scenario you find your self in,  but you have to take the bull by the horns and rid the members who  are not happy with the

situation  as  an apology to the members for not being able to

take the case further and hoping that they understand

and to hold no further comment on the situation all for one and one for all if that dose not apiece the members,  they have to

join another club  because in house fighting only destroys  the   one club  and this club is to big , so members you ether

sink or swim.  no one likes a cheat   and i am sure the other clubs  if  put in the same position  would cry wolf  although this is a snfc problem you would-en"t want to see it spread

[steve d]

What would I do??????????????????????????????? Simple I would walk of the marking table when he brings his birds, If there is know one willing to mark them then how can he send. You cant force any fancier to mark another fanciers birds.

 

I would say a big well done to the lads who have carried this through in trying to catch him out .

[DOVEScot]

If you are caught cheating in any sport/hobby then you are dealt with by the officials not normally in a court of law, the police would take on any case if there was a crime committed.

Examples

Drug taking in sports, the governing body sets the ban and if the drugs are illegal then the police may get involved

Assualt in a football game, the governing body determine the the outcome and the police may press charges as well

This is the normal in near enough every sport I know of and what is also normal is everyone having an opinion on the incident and the outcome

 

[Taylorsloft]

 

If you feel that way about the birds you probably should! No other pigeon fancier no matter what you think of him or her is responsible for your failure.

 

ive had good open results from snfc and owned birds you could only dream about 40th open lille after losing 20 mins   81st open sartilly smash  136th need i go on   :P :P

 

[Guest IB]

 

Reply to para 2 and 3

 

You are correct why i put a letter in Ian, but when the outcome was in the presidents own words we cant find his bird on the transporter because we cant find his basket which was followed by the president lying, followed by threats of litigation by Gibson the Vice president at that time, followed by Gibson getting nominated back on the committee by the president of the SNFC even though at that time Mr Gibson was still threatening litigation against the SNFC  > >:(is it any wonder i am pleased that these ordinary fanciers took it on themselves to investigate him this year and protect the integrity of the sport when at the same time spineless people like yourself criticise from there armchair people who are willing to put there neck on the block to seek truth and justice.

 

As for the rest of the paragraphs well all i can say to it is no wonder our sport is going down the swanny with people like yourself willing to protect a cheat who has now been caught by members of his own federation, also what is all this about article 8 and admissable evidence are you forgetting something ian in this sport that i have a deep love and passion for it is a amateur sport which is built apon many things which includes Sportsmanship, honesty and INTEGRITY which has been lacking from your good friend and his associates.

 

First of all Gareth, I do not consider myself spineless, I am Devil's Advocate here trying to look at all the information and arrive at a balanced view. I do not form or join in rabble-rousing or witch hunts. I am without shadow of a doubt my own person. Nobody works me from behind. What you see is what you get.

 

What you have left out from your own para 1 was that this man's bird(s?) on the date in question were not basketed at Bo'ness, they were at Dundee. Not once have you attempted to clear any of the marking station staff at Bo'ness of any wrongdoing even tho it is clear as a bell that it was being inferred (another rumour) recently - this very thread.

 

I marked the sheet for Frank Tarnawaski's Alencon winner, I also did Davie Jamiesons 3rd Open Eastbourne, and John O'Neills. Any mistake made with this man's bird then was not done at Boness. It was Dundee. Not once did you correct the tommy rot about Bo'ness on this thread. Honour & Integrity - you have a lot to learn

 

On your latest information: A basket holds more than one member's pigeons. What other birds were shown to be in that basket? What happened to them? Are we talking here about a genuine clerical error on the part of the person marking the basket sheet number at Dundee? Is this what this whole witch-hunt boils down to - a clerical error?????????????????? Count yourselves lucky, cos if it was me that you had accused I would have made sure I stuffed my current and future performances right down your throats - and met you all in court.

 

[red chqr]

Just been reading the some of the postings this afternoon, i find ib's comments interesting, he seems to be going to awful lengths to protect this man, not only does he imply that the people collecting this evidence were involved in the alleged assault but he seems to enforce the point that this man has not been cheating.  Cheating or not, how can ib be so sure of this unless he knows more than he is letting on or is trying to deflect attention from himself????

[tilly]

the matter of this man cheating should have been dealt with years ago when the matter first came to light.  we have such a great reputation us pigeon fanciers especially with charitable orgainisation  and such like and it is a shame that things are tarnishing our fantastic sport.  we should all be working together to protect the good name of the sport.

[red chqr]

 

First of all Gareth, I do not consider myself spineless, I am Devil's Advocate here trying to look at all the information and arrive at a balanced view. I do not form or join in rabble-rousing or witch hunts. I am without shadow of a doubt my own person. Nobody works me from behind. What you see is what you get.

 

What you have left out from your own para 1 was that this man's bird(s?) on the date in question were not basketed at Bo'ness, they were at Dundee. Not once have you attempted to clear any of the marking station staff at Bo'ness of any wrongdoing even tho it is clear as a bell that it was being inferred (another rumour) recently - this very thread.

 

I marked the sheet for Frank Tarnawaski's Alencon winner, I also did Davie Jamiesons 3rd Open Eastbourne, and John O'Neills. Any mistake made with this man's bird then was not done at Boness. It was Dundee. Not once did you correct the tommy rot about Bo'ness on this thread. Honour & Integrity - you have a lot to learn

 

On your latest information: A basket holds more than one member's pigeons. What other birds were shown to be in that basket? What happened to them? Are we talking here about a genuine clerical error on the part of the person marking the basket sheet number at Dundee? Is this what this whole witch-hunt boils down to - a clerical error?????????????????? Count yourselves lucky, cos if it was me that you had accused I would have made sure I stuffed my current and future performances right down your throats - and met you all in court.

 

Who is John O'Neill, here I was thinking it was John McNeill?

[Guest]

On your latest information: A basket holds more than one member's pigeons. What other birds were shown to be in that basket? What happened to them? Are we talking here about a genuine clerical error on the part of the person marking the basket sheet number at Dundee? Is this what this whole witch-hunt boils down to - a clerical error??????????????????

,i was running the marking station and there was no clerical error you'v been told alot of crap!!, we put on the basket labels for the cocks and hens and basket numbers and someone removed them after they left dundee !!!!!

 

 

 

 

[Roland]

What would I do??????????????????????????????? Simple I would walk of the marking table when he brings his birds, If there is know one willing to mark them then how can he send.

 

'''' You cant force any fancier to mark another fanciers birds''' it is an RPRA Rule that you CAN'T refuse to mark anyone's birds who brings them... even if not your club member, but say from another club.

Obviously if BANNED by the RPRA things could be different. But as long as he remains an legit member then the CLUB has to send them!

 

[Guest Gareth Rankin]

 

First of all Gareth, I do not consider myself spineless, I am Devil's Advocate here trying to look at all the information and arrive at a balanced view. I do not form or join in rabble-rousing or witch hunts. I am without shadow of a doubt my own person. Nobody works me from behind. What you see is what you get.

 

What you have left out from your own para 1 was that this man's bird(s?) on the date in question were not basketed at Bo'ness, they were at Dundee. Not once have you attempted to clear any of the marking station staff at Bo'ness of any wrongdoing even tho it is clear as a bell that it was being inferred (another rumour) recently - this very thread.

 

I marked the sheet for Frank Tarnawaski's Alencon winner, I also did Davie Jamiesons 3rd Open Eastbourne, and John O'Neills. Any mistake made with this man's bird then was not done at Boness. It was Dundee. Not once did you correct the tommy rot about Bo'ness on this thread. Honour & Integrity - you have a lot to learn

 

On your latest information: A basket holds more than one member's pigeons. What other birds were shown to be in that basket? What happened to them? Are we talking here about a genuine clerical error on the part of the person marking the basket sheet number at Dundee? Is this what this whole witch-hunt boils down to - a clerical error?????????????????? Count yourselves lucky, cos if it was me that you had accused I would have made sure I stuffed my current and future performances right down your throats - and met you all in court.

 

 

 

Not once have i ever mentioned Boness marking station it was not myself that started this subject so i have no need to clear Boness of any wrongdoing.

You should get upto date on things Ian because you are the only one that believes that the pigeons were marked at Boness everyone else were they were marked.

 

You talk about a well ballanced view that you have , well i suggest you are getting fed false info by your ass(ociates) to make that view.

 

    

 

 

[me]

ive had good open results from snfc and owned birds you could only dream about 40th open lille after losing 20 mins   81st open sartilly smash  136th need i go on   :P :P

 

Invariably you do and you can blow your own trumpet as well. Careful you don't eat yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ronnie]

surely this needs to be taken to an emergency meeting or something as all you guys are doing is airing your dirty washing in public now i dont know who did what when or how but reading through this thread something drastic needs to be done.I'm just glad i dont fly into scotland as being a relatively new starter i think this would be so dissheartening .I fly the NFC and am now starting to think well if its happened there it can happen anywhere even if nothing has happened.Please Guy's get this sorted out as soon as possible one way or the other i dont think you guy's realise the damage you are doing to the sport with all this arguing in public.

I know most of you will probably have  a dig at me now but to be hohnest i couldnt care less either way.