snfc top table

[elanco]

All-round Racer

 

Posts: 244 elanco i think u r last comment is totally out of order there are plenty of younger members in the snfc more than capable of taking it forward u dont have to have kept pigeons for 100 years and have a one track mind to be an offical  

 

, :X

[Williedoo]

Re read the posts

I think younger members could do a good job for the snfc,but you would need plenty of spare time,which older members seem to have more of.

[walterbmasson]

l

  

 

                                                                                                                                                                                          

            wil  lie i dont know the man personally but if this is the case its the biggest fraud thats happened in scottish pigeon racing

         away from the money side he has conned 10 deserving section winners out 1st positions and the same 2nds right down the line but the 1st open is just scandelious my self the net should have been set with out the mesh missing iam sure this could and should have been stopped before every body looses faith in SNFC  ITS NOT A GOOD SUBJECT IN ANY SPORT IT LEAVES A BITTER TASTE IN YOUR MOUTH      

[BLACK W F]

ELANCO there are plenty of young guys around who would do more than a good job but also like any good team you need guys with experence the problem is for to get the right people they need support  and help  but what happens in most cases they are just used and crtisized  by the rank and file and this is what stops them doing these jobs just stop and think  when theres a bad race poor returns whos fault is it  race controller sec  or pres  any body but themselves   yet these are the guys who give up there time freely  and if you say they get paid for it  they would be lucky in most cases if it come to 5p an hour  there is only one way forward and thats working together as one team for one aim

cheers Alan

[BLACK W F]

Walter i am like you do not know the full story but if this guy has done this not only has he cost the true winners their true places and owners their winnings it is a disgrace he has gotten away with it  as he must be a really sad person because the one  he cheated on the most was his self  as he surely does not have a consion   may he get his just rewards things have habbit of what goes round comes round  and i hope his is very soon

cheers Alan

[Guest]

Come on lads, dont be sitting on the fence again.Say what you think about IBs thoughts on what has happened.I can see you all reading this .

 

derek i have already stated to you in an earlier pm my own personal thoughts on the person concerned but i have had no conclusive proof of any cheating/fraud having been committed,so generally speaking i would have to agree with the points raised by IB,because they are what i understand to be the case as well.

i keep hearing that the person concerned will not be allowed to race pigeons again in the north west fed.

well i dont think it is as cut and dry as that because 1.the so called rule passed by the north west fed to keep "undesirables" out would have to be ratified by the shu rules commitee.

2.it is not the federation who accepts or rejects members but the individual clubs within the federation,if a club within the federation were to accept the person concerned in the future,the federation would find it very difficult to exclude him if nothing had susequently been proved against him.

 

obviously if some subsequent legal action found that an offence had been commited, that would certainly change matters.

i dont want to get into an argument over this,you asked for peoples thoughts,these are some of mine. billy mclaren

[Guest Gareth Rankin]

In this case, my own view consistently checks out as reality. For peer proof of that, you need only look to last year’s SNFC AGM minutes, under Constitution & Rules: your request to re-rubber only one member’s pigeon(s) – described as victimisation by one member - was seen as the wrong course of action, and also exposed the club (to litigation). The whole convoy must be re-rubbered - AGM agreed that for future occasions - guaranteeing fairness as all members are treated the same. It is fair to say that it was your cack-handedness that exposed the club to possible litigation in the first place. The President’s actions of initially going along with your request made matters worse.

 

This rule was passed and perhaps it should be changed once again because with the wording of it, it now means that if these pigeons get passed Gretna and information comes to light that there is evidence of wrong doing then no re rubbering will then be allowed at the race point which will be a first for any organisation in the UK :-/. As for the one member who described it as victimisation would that have been you.

 

 

 

And the same cack-handedness is evident in the ‘investigation’ fiasco here last year. I predicted the outcome on here, and gave my reasons, amongst which were that the evidence and the way it was collected were so deeply flawed and of such poor quality that it could not stand up in court. The police have since confirmed that there is insufficient evidence (of fraud) and they have dropped the case. The police decision was made known at our Fed AGM, and your friend posted it on here too.

 

With that statement you have accused your 3 fellow federation members who caught the man cheating as liars, as such you are an absolute disgrace to the sport, these men have went out of there way while his fellow officials sat on there ar5e right to the very end who unlike you who only sits on his ar5e at his computer and twists/spews anything that is contrary to what the facts are and have been. (Boy what a kick you must get)

 

You question the procedures that were carried out by these men, maybe you don’t know this but our governing body is the SHU and with its rule book there is no procedure on how to catch a cheat and how not too, it has always been done by officials who have the best interest of the sport at heart unfortunately this time it had to be his fed members because the mans fellow officials done nothing but bury there heads in the sand and tried to sweep things under the carpet.  

 

And so you are now completely out of touch with reality: no-one was caught cheating in, or thrown out of our Fed.  The man resigned in June / July 08. The truth of the matter is the man was hounded out of pigeons by a long and very obvious vendetta against him - he said as much in a national newspaper report. And further peer proof is also there: at the height of his success his loft was broken into and pigeons & eggs stolen, and even after the allegations became public knowledge, he was still able to give away all his pigeons last year - hundreds of them. I find it odd that anyone would want a cheat’s pigeons - stolen or free - what possible use would people have for them?

 

You been took in hook line and sinker.

I hope a line can be drawn under this sorry affair at the coming AGM. I think the SNFC has been harmed enough by you and your friends’ obsession.

 

I too hope for and end too this shambles that has taken place by the president and hopefully there will be a man at the top who will not protect and promote conmen.

 

I have been a member of the SNFC for many years and a very proud member at that, I have always been taught that the talk of someone cheating is a Taboo subject and so it should be, but there comes a time when there should be no one who holds his/her head in there hands and thinks to themselves it will correct itself without action, i.e. – re rubbering and that is why as a proud committee member in 2007 I started the ball rolling which was because of the constant conversations taking place around Scotland added to this the fact there were procedures that were being carried out by this man that i believe no other honest or man of integrity would do and if it was required i would carry out the same procedure again to protect the club and it’s members.

 

 

[hotrod]

I think this cheating scenario has done more  damage to the sport in scotland than the split 4/5 years ago.Just as did the cambell&francey scandal a number off years ago in the NIPA.

[Delboy]

 

derek i have already stated to you in an earlier pm my own personal thoughts on the person concerned but i have had no conclusive proof of any cheating/fraud having been committed,so generally speaking i would have to agree with the points raised by IB,because they are what i understand to be the case as well.

i keep hearing that the person concerned will not be allowed to race pigeons again in the north west fed.

well i dont think it is as cut and dry as that because 1.the so called rule passed by the north west fed to keep "undesirables" out would have to be ratified by the shu rules commitee.

2.it is not the federation who accepts or rejects members but the individual clubs within the federation,if a club within the federation were to accept the person concerned in the future,the federation would find it very difficult to exclude him if nothing had susequently been proved against him.

 

obviously if some subsequent legal action found that an offence had been commited, that would certainly change matters.

i dont want to get into an argument over this,you asked for peoples thoughts,these are some of mine. billy mclaren

 

Billy, tut tut.You should know better m8.You have just lost credability by backing IB.You werent even at your own AGM and you dont know that it was decided to put Mr X out as a bad member (as a cheat ) and that all the minutes were getting sent to the SHU for ratification.The SHU are getting instructed to furnish every fed secretary with a copy so that they can keep this man out. The men who caught him were at AGM with evidence and the fed didnt want to see it ???????? I find it very strange that you would back or condone this mans actions.

[Delboy]

I think this cheating scenario has done more  damage to the sport in scotland than the split 4/5 years ago.Just as did the cambell&francey scandal a number off years ago in the NIPA.

 

Totally agree Stuart. What is worse is that we havent got the right rules in place to protect organisations from fraudsters.

[hotrod]

agree totally derick but i think the n/west fed and the snfc should have set the said so called pigeon man up properly and caught him red handed without any way out. as thats the way the infc did it with davy cambell set him up and caught him ,they let him beleive the birds were liberated ,waited till he handed over his clock  after clocking in then told him the birds were not up ,caught red handed

[Guest]

 

Billy, tut tut.You should know better m8.You have just lost credability by backing IB.You werent even at your own AGM and you dont know that it was decided to put Mr X out as a bad member (as a cheat ) and that all the minutes were getting sent to the SHU for ratification.The SHU are getting instructed to furnish every fed secretary with a copy so that they can keep this man out. The men who caught him were at AGM with evidence and the fed didnt want to see it ???????? I find it very strange that you would back or condone this mans actions.

 

derek i did not say anywhere that i was particularly backing IB,i simply stated that the points he laid out were exactly as i have been told them from a number of sources and i could get dozens of fanciers in the north west fed who have been told the same.

lets talk about a hypothetical situation where a few fanciers have a personal crib with derek hay,they decide concoct "evidence" that he has been tampering with his clock in someway and state that they staked out his loft and found that his birds were arriving at his loft at times later than read out on his clock. is their hearsay "evidence" enough to have derek hay prosecuted?

as i also said in my previous post shu club rules state that a person applying for membership submits a letter of application to the club whereby on a majority vote of the members of the club his/her application is accepted or fails.going by present rules the club accepts the member not the fed.if this new fed rule is ratified then the shu will have to change their own rules before they can accept the new one or the two will be in conflict.

finally may i say to you derek as i"ve stated to you before its nothing to do with outsiders what members of the north west fed do and certainly nothing to do with you what i do.

[Delboy]

agree totally derick but i think the n/west fed and the snfc should have set the said so called pigeon man up properly and caught him red handed without any way out. as thats the way the infc did it with davy cambell set him up and caught him ,they let him beleive the birds were liberated ,waited till he handed over his clock  after clocking in then told him the birds were not up ,caught red handed

 

True, but you cant set it up if the man is getting backed by his officials.( COVERING HIS TRACKS) Hence all the North West officials stepping down.They Knew they made a balls of it. The same should happen at the SNFC AGM on Saturday.

[hotrod]

Very true derick just a pity as it would have been put to bed for good with no maybe,s good luck on saturday if not come and join us ha!ha! ;) ;)

[Delboy]

Very true derick just a pity as it would have been put to bed for good with no maybe,s good luck on saturday if not come and join us ha!ha! ;) ;)

 

Thats exactly what I will do, if certain people dont get the bollocking they deserve

[Guest]

derek yous have got the rules and the president can at any time instruct a basket convenior to re mark a basket or even the whole convoy (but not an indivuals birds alone ) lets face it some made a complete hash of the whole concern and its too late now it should have been delt with properly with the officals of the snfc not the fed it was suspected there first if i had been the pres. and someone gave me enough cause to doubt the integrety of the snfc i would have discreatly re marked the baskets from the marking station we thought the problem birds were marked and all would have come out in the wash job done

[jock3]

we all here about his rights , what about the rest of our rights  ?

[Guest IB]

1. As for the one member who described it as victimisation would that have been you.

 

Wrong. I gave you a clue, that it was one of your peers, a well known and respected SNFC member. In the spirit of the person to whom this thread belongs, I won’t name names, but you’ll find him in Constitution & Rules, New Rules, 1, where 3 fanciers gave views on this. He is the second named person.

 

 

2. With that statement you have accused your 3 fellow federation members who caught the man cheating as liars, as such you are an absolute disgrace to the sport, these men have went out of there way while his fellow officials sat on there ar5e right to the very end who unlike you who only sits on his ar5e at his computer and twists/spews anything that is contrary to what the facts are and have been. (Boy what a kick you must get)

 

 

This is the statement you refer too:

 

And the same cack-handedness is evident in the ‘investigation’ fiasco here last year. I predicted the outcome on here, and gave my reasons, amongst which were that the evidence and the way it was collected were so deeply flawed and of such poor quality that it could not stand up in court. The police have since confirmed that there is insufficient evidence (of fraud) and they have dropped the case. The police decision was made known at our Fed AGM, and your friend posted it on here too.

 

Nowhere in that statement do I see anything remotely resembling calling anyone a liar, nor have I twisted anything, I simply repeated something I said before, and its still on here if you want to check it out: First, they broke the law making anything useful that they might have gathered unable to be used in court.  Second, they did not provide evidence that the bird in the video was the bird in the clock, or that the clock had been tampered with.  Thirdly, they were not part of an Official Investigation.

 

3. You question the procedures that were carried out by these men, maybe you don’t know this but our governing body is the SHU and with its rule book there is no procedure on how to catch a cheat and how not too, it has always been done by officials who have the best interest of the sport at heart unfortunately this time it had to be his fed members because the mans fellow officials done nothing but bury there heads in the sand and tried to sweep things under the carpet.  

 

What you don’t know, but these men do, is that there is a procedure within our Fed that covers this, explained fully at the AGM. As this would have involved all our club delegates, it would have been difficult if not impossible to cover up. Being an Official Investigation, the Fed would have access and authority to detain the man’s clock and have it examined, and would have got the proper authority to put him under full covert surveillance – going wherever their enquiries took them.

 

[Blue Tooner]

Anyone caught cheating should not be allowed to race pigeons again and any official who tries to brush it under the carpet should be relieved of their position and of course hang their heads in shame. Let's hope that the truth of this matter is brought out in the open and recorded in black and white so that it will never happen again, hopefully.

just my thoughts.

[alex wight]

Anyone caught cheating should not be allowed to race pigeons again and any official who tries to brush it under the carpet should be relieved of their position and of course hang their heads in shame. Let's hope that the truth of this matter is brought out in the open and recorded in black and white so that it will never happen again, hopefully.

just my thoughts.

 

I totally agree, for a relativley new comer to the sport, as myself, this subject isnt half leaving a bad taste in the current members mouths. The person in question is still pulling everyones chain and winding us up, just look at the bhw. I was lead to believe had resigned from the snfc, and if so how is he allowed to put a report into the bhw under PRO. Stroll on 2009 season for the better of the sport, lets get it sorted.

 

 

[alex wight]

Under the present climate should he have written an obituary for the great Dale Newcome? Yes he is entitled to do so, but just considering the present climate, was it neccessary?

[lithgilad]

i also am new to pigeons and my opinion is any cheating should be dealt with but it seems i ve entered a sport where cheating and argueing come before the birds if i race my birds and dont win but get 3rd or fourth i can be happy with the fact i did it honestly and fairly lets put the cheats out the sport for once and all

[walterbmasson]

 

 

i dont know the real facts but if this is found out to be correct the SNFC must take action and donate section trophies to the rightfull owners if the out come is found to be true the tours trophy should be presented to the rightful owner along with next years winners surly this must happen after all honesty must prevail

[lithgilad]

i agree dont let this drag on

[The Grass Cutter]

do you think is right that top man in nat proposed a man that threatens nat with litigation . then noms him for committee

no names please

To return back to the original question it appears that it was either the"Top Man" had forgotten he had told the members at the AGM the Man who threatened the SNFC with litigation was not taking any positions in the SNFC  or as the Man stated to myself "I practically run the National on my own and ? was unable to do anything without him."

Maybe the Top Man had to propose him, make your own mind up. Lessons must be learned from this and nobody should be given the freedom to potentially manipulate the system.