Vacination..

[Guest JonesyBhoy]

We all jag for PMV, as its compulsory, if you intend to race. And i notice now many fanciers jag for Paratyphoid..

 

But are we maybe being ripped off slightly..?? Surely the people who produce the pigeon vaccines are advanced enough to make a one off vaccine.. meaning we could jag the birds once when they were young and this would last them for ever..

 

Or is this just another case off pigeon fanciers being expolited..??

[ALF]

It's a money making racket for them END OF :X :X :X

[Guest frank dooman]

dont colombavc make the joint one

[Guest JonesyBhoy]

Im not meaning that Frank.. Paratyphoid aside.. we all jag our doos every year for PMV.. you would think they could make a one off life time jag for PMV..

[Guest stb-]

It's a money making racket for them END OF :X :X :X

 

Alan yer spot on there m8 ;)

[robbiedoo.]

were being ripped off.

[Guest frank dooman]

Im not meaning that Frank.. Paratyphoid aside.. we all jag our doos every year for PMV.. you would think they could make a one off life time jag for PMV..

 

sory misunderstood yes agree but i dont think the belg and the likes do it every year like us

[REDCHEQHEN]

 

sory misunderstood yes agree but i dont think the belg and the likes do it every year like us

 

I think the Belgians and the like say the same of the British !

 

I do think its the same rules throughout the EU

 

 

[Guest frank dooman]

 

I think the Belgians and the like say the same of the British !

 

I do think its the same rules throughout the EU

 

 

fair point  

[dwh]

We all jag for PMV, as its compulsory, if you intend to race. And i notice now many fanciers jag for Paratyphoid..

 

But are we maybe being ripped off slightly..?? Surely the people who produce the pigeon vaccines are advanced enough to make a one off vaccine.. meaning we could jag the birds once when they were young and this would last them for ever..

 

Or is this just another case off pigeon fanciers being expolited..??

 

we all talk about over medication of our birds and the effect on the immune system what does continuos vaccination do does it cause any damage  and is this the reason 4 yearly vaccs?

[Guest JonesyBhoy]

I dont personally see so.. children get there jags, and get them once then thats it..

[REDCHEQHEN]

 

we all talk about over medication of our birds and the effect on the immune system what does continuos vaccination do does it cause any damage  and is this the reason 4 yearly vaccs?

 

I had to smile at this - the reason being that there are so many people using 'vaccinations' as a performance enhancer - bet the poor bl**dy pigeons would be glad of only once a year!

[dwh]

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

 

I had to smile at this - the reason being that there are so many people using 'vaccinations' as a performance enhancer - bet the poor bl**dy pigeons would be glad of only once a year!

 

 

[Guest Owen]

I think you have it right mate. But the average Belgium loft is way smaller than owers and as I uderstand it they share things like vaccines. The Dutch are much the same as us in size so as far as I know they are ripped off just the same as us.

I have reduced my costs a lot these days because I do not keep as many birds. 16 cocks, which is still too many, and I only rear about 25 youngsters. The quality of my birds is much better these days so I can win as much with the smaller numbers. But the best thing is that I am able to look after what I have much better.

[Novice]

Im not meaning that Frank.. Paratyphoid aside.. we all jag our doos every year for PMV.. you would think they could make a one off life time jag for PMV..

 

The last information I had was that the immunity given does not even last for a full year.

PMV vaccination only gives 10 months immunity unless the vaccine has been improved recently.

 

But yes we are being ripped off.

 

 

[Guest frank dooman]

I dont personally see so.. children get there jags, and get them once then thats it..

 

i have a strange take on this i jag my birds every year i used to be like most and do it 2/3 weeks before the 1st y/b races but after having circo virus 6/7 years ago i now take the vets advice and do it as soon as i can after seperating them now when it comes to raceing i dont realy care if someone has not done it if i believe that the jag will do its job and protect my birds then thats ok if i didnt believe in the jag i wouldnt use it i still think that in the 1980 someone won the lotery did the people who made the  vac. put the prob out there in the 1st  place quickest way to be a millionere over night daft doo men will buy anything esp. if made too

[gulkie]

we must jag for pmv, they have made that compulsory ,and if enough

fanciers buy all the other drugs that we need they will make them compusery

as well.i have seen it in my other pastime [deerstalking] i sat my level 1

deer management coarse and was told it will never be made the rule ,but

try getting any shooting without it.the drug companys have the goverment

stitched up they are the money men.

[Guest stb-]

 

i have a strange take on this i jag my birds every year i used to be like most and do it 2/3 weeks before the 1st y/b races but after having circo virus 6/7 years ago i now take the vets advice and do it as soon as i can after seperating them now when it comes to raceing i dont realy care if someone has not done it if i believe that the jag will do its job and protect my birds then thats ok if i didnt believe in the jag i wouldnt use it i still think that in the 1980 someone won the lotery did the people who made the  vac. put the prob out there in the 1st  place quickest way to be a millionere over night daft doo men will buy anything esp. if made too

Didnt eascape from a GOV lab did it,      :X :X

 

like the bird flu  ??) ??) ??)

[Guest frank dooman]

Didnt eascape from a GOV lab did it,      :X :X

 

like the bird flu  ??) ??) ??)

 

i dont think so robert if i wanted to make a bundle of money over nite just create an illness and put it out there when you allready have the vac to cure it job done all us daft doo men will clime over one another to get it better still if you drop the right people a bung to make it compulsary

[Guest IB]

There was a big world-wide debate in small animal veterinary circles on the need for annual vaccination in companion animals like dogs and cats. In UK this led to a scientific study being commissioned by the Home Office covering all aspects of vaccination and the study is expected to last 6 years, i.e. due to report / publish 2011/12. God, how time passes.      :-

 

 

"04september-2006

 

368: Studies on immune memory and regulation

Date: 29th Aug 2006

 

 

This programme of work is intended to extend our understanding of immunological memory and immune regulation with the attendant benefits that may follow for human and animal health.

 

The reason vaccines work is because the immune system exhibits memory, it responds better the second time it sees a microbe. How it does this is still hotly debated. For instance, immune memory is very long-lasting, however, the cells in the immune system are always under severe competition for space and survival, as every time an immune response occurs more cells are made; so how can memory cells survive for long periods? This is one of the questions that will be addressed in this project. Another question relates to how flexible in modality the memory response is, eg. will the memory response be the same as the primary response and if not how is this achieved? It’s important that it has this flexibility is maintained as otherwise memory may be unable to protect us in all situations and may cause damaging reactions (eg. by making inappropriate inflammatory cytokines)."

 

 

Now this Vet's website hasn’t been updated since 2006, but you’ll get a good idea of the counter arguments that led to this Study. Scroll down the page to midway between the second and third slide, to the text on right side starting:-

 

‘if the patient had antibodies from the mothers colostrum or from a previous vaccine, antibodies from the colostrum or from the first vaccine would prevent the viruses in the new vaccine from replicating. Cell mediated immunity would also prevent replication. The immune system would not be stimulated. ’

 

http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/Current%20Knowledge%20of%20Immunology%20101.htm

 

Calls into question some of the stuff put forward on this forum recently.  

[Guest Owen]

IB

I have read what you have put on here and I will read it again, no doubt.

But I still have to come back to the fact that all creatures have an active imune system and that vaccines stimulate it. We humans have benefited from vaccination for a very long time now. Some diseases have been virtually eliminated as a result of vaccination. We also know that domestic animals are protected by using vaccines. Some more than others. We also know that colostrum acts almost like a vaccine and provides protection to the young of humans and animals. I can not see that there is much doubt about any of that.

Slightly more controversially, we know that Vets have exploited the situation by encouraging people to vaccinate animals when it is not required. So much so in fact the animals have been made ill and some have died as a result of these vaccinations. I refer to mainly dogs and cats. The Drug Companies and the Vets have made a lot of money by selling vaccinations and the more they can sell the better they like it. My worry is that vaccines are being sold regardless of their accurate targeting. One Vet tried to sell me Salmonella vaccine that had been manufactured for chicken. It could be possible that the Racing Pigeon Sport does not have enough money flowing through it to make it attractive enough for Scientists to take vaccine production seriously. The result being that we are having vaccines that are not specific to the diseases we have to encounter.

I deal with one of the top avian Vets in this Country and I trust his judgement. So I will stick with his advice and carry on with the vaccination programme he has laid out for me. I am sure that if and when he finds out there is a change in approach to vaccination, he will give me the correct advice. The sort of thing you are putting on here can be confusing and causing people, who should vaccinate, not to do so. Why don't you encourage people to work through, and with, a top Vet rather than listen to the advice of an unqualified Layman. I think it is time that the RPRA took an interest in this sort of issue and helped us out with the right information rather that remain as the glorified stray reporting service they have become.  

  

[Guest IB]

Owen, I have cut down your quote to those parts which (1) focus on the topic of the thread,  â€˜why is it necessary to vaccinate every year for PMV, and why isn’t there a ‘once-only’ PMV vaccine after so many years?’, and (2) your reply to my post within those topics.

 

 

IB

I have read what you have put on here and I will read it again, no doubt.

But I still have to come back to the fact that all creatures have an active imune system and that vaccines stimulate it….  

 

First point. You will need to read it again. Vaccination doesn’t always stimulate the immune system in the desired way, to create immunity to disease. The classic example should be well known to all racing pigeon fanciers who vaccinate for PMV, irrespective of whether they use Colombovac or  Nobilis vaccine. Both companies publish an information leaflet written in language that the intended users can understand, and part of that information tells us about maternal antibodies for PMV which if present will stop the PMV vaccine taking effect. That is a basic fact, if antibodies are already present, whether through previous disease or vaccination, subsequent vaccinations will not confer further immunity. They will have no effect.    

 

I deal with one of the top avian Vets in this Country and I trust his judgement. So I will stick with his advice and carry on with the vaccination programme he has laid out for me. I am sure that if and when he finds out there is a change in approach to vaccination, he will give me the correct advice.

 

Well I too can say that I deal with an avian specialist, who also lectures at Glasgow Veterinary College and has had work published in veterinary science literature. So that’s  that irrelevant point out of the way.  

 

The sort of thing you are putting on here can be confusing and causing people, who should vaccinate, not to do so. .

 

I have posted references to work which is already in the public domain. After learning about the vaccination research on the DEFRA website, I have informed members in several posts on here dating back to late 2006 that the whole vaccination issue is subject to Government-sponsored research, and what the main issues were. Confusing people? It is normally called keeping people informed. And as far as PMV vaccination is concerned, I laid to rest the misunderstanding many on here had that PMV vaccination was voluntary, and a ‘RPRA’ ruling thing, by showing that it was a legal requirement for racing pigeons, posting up an extract from the Act. Any other vaccination is strictly fancier’s choice and the only way they can make that choice is if they are aware of ‘the facts for and against’. All the facts, whether I agree with them or not. They are then free to find out more, and make their own choice, not simply do blind what someone tells them.

 

Why don't you encourage people to work through, and with, a top Vet rather than listen to the advice of an unqualified Layman.    

 

In my opinion, this is all you really what you wanted to post here, the rest was just padding. You know nothing about me. I had a 4-page article on health care published in BHW, and my first paragraph pointed out my layperson background. But what I had to say was still well received by the readership, according to feedback I got, and the telephone calls, even though my piece had been published anonymously. I do not consider myself one the self-appointed experts on here. It is certainly not me that hands out advice on caring for sick pigeons, or how to use medications down to recommending specific products and how to dispense them. And in some cases where to obtain them or supply them – which is illegal, so much for expert guidance. My qualifications are strictly limited to knowing how to look after my own pigeons. And my advice to others on caring for their own pigeons with problems is strictly limited to ‘isolate and see an avian vet ASAP’.

 

Oh, and it was this layperson working through Gordon Chalmers and others that provided factual material which proved to the world’s top pigeon vets – that they had misunderstood what they had been told by the researchers about racing pigeons and Avian Flu, and how that misunderstanding arose. I achieved that in exactly the same way as I’ve always done, gather all the known facts, and look for discrepancies. So when Gordon publishes in BHW that pigeons can’t catch Avian Flu, but the first deaths recorded from it [Hong Kong 1997] include a pigeon, you know something doesn’t add up. And when the vets downplay a newspaper report of an outbreak in Thailand in which 200 pigeons died saying that this report hadn’t been officially substantiated, but OIE has a report filed by Thailand which includes the death of a pigeon there, and a major Avian Flu researcher Dr David Swayne (CDC) tells you in an email that the virus he used in his research to infect pigeons with Avian Flu came from a pigeon that died of Avian Flu in Thailand –  well, you start to get a good feel for what the true facts are. So you start with the true facts and build your case from there, eventually presenting a solid case to DEFRA to show them they had misunderstood what they had been told by their researchers about racing pigeons and Avian Flu. And yes, I was involved in that with RPRA and SHU, unlike the first RPRA submission to DEFRA which was based on fantasy, not fact, and quite rightly dismissed out-of-hand. And that not having a good grasp of  all the facts kept us under draconian restrictions for years.

 

[glenrandal]

I have read your post with interest and conclude that we the fanciers are being ripped off .............

[Guest frank dooman]

Owen, I have cut down your quote to those parts which (1) focus on the topic of the thread,  â€˜why is it necessary to vaccinate every year for PMV, and why isn’t there a ‘once-only’ PMV vaccine after so many years?’, and (2) your reply to my post within those topics.

 

 

 

 

First point. You will need to read it again. Vaccination doesn’t always stimulate the immune system in the desired way, to create immunity to disease. The classic example should be well known to all racing pigeon fanciers who vaccinate for PMV, irrespective of whether they use Colombovac or  Nobilis vaccine. Both companies publish an information leaflet written in language that the intended users can understand, and part of that information tells us about maternal antibodies for PMV which if present will stop the PMV vaccine taking effect. That is a basic fact, if antibodies are already present, whether through previous disease or vaccination, subsequent vaccinations will not confer further immunity. They will have no effect.    

 

 

 

Well I too can say that I deal with an avian specialist, who also lectures at Glasgow Veterinary College and has had work published in veterinary science literature. So that’s  that irrelevant point out of the way.  

 

 

 

I have posted references to work which is already in the public domain. After learning about the vaccination research on the DEFRA website, I have informed members in several posts on here dating back to late 2006 that the whole vaccination issue is subject to Government-sponsored research, and what the main issues were. Confusing people? It is normally called keeping people informed. And as far as PMV vaccination is concerned, I laid to rest the misunderstanding many on here had that PMV vaccination was voluntary, and a ‘RPRA’ ruling thing, by showing that it was a legal requirement for racing pigeons, posting up an extract from the Act. Any other vaccination is strictly fancier’s choice and the only way they can make that choice is if they are aware of ‘the facts for and against’. All the facts, whether I agree with them or not. They are then free to find out more, and make their own choice, not simply do blind what someone tells them.

 

 

 

In my opinion, this is all you really what you wanted to post here, the rest was just padding. You know nothing about me. I had a 4-page article on health care published in BHW, and my first paragraph pointed out my layperson background. But what I had to say was still well received by the readership, according to feedback I got, and the telephone calls, even though my piece had been published anonymously. I do not consider myself one the self-appointed experts on here. It is certainly not me that hands out advice on caring for sick pigeons, or how to use medications down to recommending specific products and how to dispense them. And in some cases where to obtain them or supply them – which is illegal, so much for expert guidance. My qualifications are strictly limited to knowing how to look after my own pigeons. And my advice to others on caring for their own pigeons with problems is strictly limited to ‘isolate and see an avian vet ASAP’.

 

Oh, and it was this layperson working through Gordon Chalmers and others that provided factual material which proved to the world’s top pigeon vets – that they had misunderstood what they had been told by the researchers about racing pigeons and Avian Flu, and how that misunderstanding arose. I achieved that in exactly the same way as I’ve always done, gather all the known facts, and look for discrepancies. So when Gordon publishes in BHW that pigeons can’t catch Avian Flu, but the first deaths recorded from it [Hong Kong 1997] include a pigeon, you know something doesn’t add up. And when the vets downplay a newspaper report of an outbreak in Thailand in which 200 pigeons died saying that this report hadn’t been officially substantiated, but OIE has a report filed by Thailand which includes the death of a pigeon there, and a major Avian Flu researcher Dr David Swayne (CDC) tells you in an email that the virus he used in his research to infect pigeons with Avian Flu came from a pigeon that died of Avian Flu in Thailand –  well, you start to get a good feel for what the true facts are. So you start with the true facts and build your case from there, eventually presenting a solid case to DEFRA to show them they had misunderstood what they had been told by their researchers about racing pigeons and Avian Flu. And yes, I was involved in that with RPRA and SHU, unlike the first RPRA submission to DEFRA which was based on fantasy, not fact, and quite rightly dismissed out-of-hand. And that not having a good grasp of  all the facts kept us under draconian restrictions for years.

 

can i ask which vet is that ian???

[johno]

There was a big world-wide debate in small animal veterinary circles on the need for annual vaccination in companion animals like dogs and cats. In UK this led to a scientific study being commissioned by the Home Office covering all aspects of vaccination and the study is expected to last 6 years, i.e. due to report / publish 2011/12.

 

this opening salvo clearly states the study will not be completed until 2011/2012. today is 14/01/2009. until proven otherwise vaccination is needed. everything else in the post containing this information is up for investigation. it is usual in any scientific study to await final results and reports. it is not usual to appoint oneself judge jury and executioner.