Roland

Firstly.... So a tiger that has for a few generation don't eat meat eh! Better still mate Ferals are derived from Pigeons, just that same... and you haven't like any body else a youngster that will beat a tame feral home. And Bird flu thrives in poultry sheds because of overcrowded conditions in them, another hand from Nature in the way of disease and deaths - and reduction in numbers. So does every other desease, what has that got to do with overcrowding. Overcrowding didn't cause it! .. And what is more 'Pigeons' don't get Avian Flu. As Spreading it quicker, well that is another plus! Sooner fixed, immuned the better ALL at same time preferablely! Don't want a never ending circle, especially as thaat will hold the others back constantly.

Who tweeked your nose? eh

The simple answer to that Pigeonscout is... Very few I should think ... but by your yard stick at least 55% to 85%!

pigeonscout, I can't help but think you believe that number mean 'Overcrowding'. In a proper inviroment with fresh water and feed and air in abundance, just in golly's name can they be worst off. Indeed just where is your yardstick? It has to do with Birds x cubic feet x wjhat I perfer, Nothing, no where where has the ctual condition of the birds been challegned. That should tell you something! Pigeons are by nature a flocking bird that loves and thrives on a naturual enviroment of more. Every where you look, they always gather more... not less. Now how can one state that 'over crowding' EVER HAPPENS unless it is Bad Managerment!? Proper ventilation and etc. means healyhy and happier birds and stress free. Which makes contentment. Without that nothing is possible. Now degrees of content only serve for better results. So one must strive to accomadate NATURE and as same time MANAGE the birds with a proper system. As I say, you seem to confuse 'Bad managerment with a easy crutch of Over Crowding.... NO such thing... Bad managerment yes of course.

I think, personally, that there will be masses of losses all over regardless of what and how they do. I don't for a minute believe that the real causes are entered into. Why, well becuase it would go against their' grain and the 'Norm' as to why. Further they believe that every body is in the same boat. I further believe that the reasons started to deteriate from the end of the 60's. Again, I fear, too many don't want the truth, and won't accept it when they hear it. Yes there are always 'Thoses' that make it pluasible and hence the fanciers of today choose to carry on as they did last year and the year before etc. etc. with ever more and more deteriating results.

have put up that true fact under another heading.

The Fed president phone me once and asked if I could help a lady, who’s husband, a ex fancier, in Roade who had passed on, in regards sorting out the birds. He was late 70’s early 80’s, and had always had pigeons, though hadn’t flown for about 10 years due to not being so good health wise. I apologised explaining I couldn’t drive due to a leg playing up. He then arranged for Stu to do the honours. In stu’s own words he related the findings as such. So Stu, a pretty decent flyer with in a partnership was asked. Now Stu is an advocator of ‘Overcrowding’ being a major drawback with many fanciers. He quoted most of the common myths as gospel. like we have all heard bandied about willy - nilly. (Ailments spreading quicker I should imagine we would all agree on, though that in it’s self I maintain isn’t necessarily a bad thing). He went with a plastic liner expecting the worst. The thought that they were / or could be of any use to anyone never crossed his mind. He knocked the door and the lady explained that she needed them gone ASAP because they were a constant reminder, and further she couldn’t care for them proper, which hence would make her feel as she would be letting her husband down who had thought the world of the birds etc. etc. Further he could cull or give them away which ever he felt best, she didn’t want to know… as long as they were gone sooner than later. So he, and his mate, went down to this ole falling down ‘Shack’ as he called it. In his mind’s eye expect maybe 30 or so birds, for the loft was only about 8 to 10 feet long and around 7 feet deep he ascertain. The door creaked open and there was a mass of them. All just cooing and so contented, he says it was grand to see. He filled his liner, hide it aside of the house, and explained to the lady he’d have to come back tomorrow, after work, to finish the job… and that there was still plenty of feed scatter about in pots, lids in tact. Next day he, and his mate, went back, spoke to the lady and went down to finish the job as promised. Roly he said, emphasis always on me, I take back every thing. There was just one hole, an ole trap broken, where they could go in and out, but he’d never saw any outside on the two occasions he was there. It was full of the most beautiful pigeons imaginable. They were in absolute first class condition. He decided they’d better get on with it, and saw there were many on the floor, side were covered, pots and pans, a bucket, squared bricks for nesting etc. etc. So he reached above and caught a pigeon on the top perch, just over the trap. Condition he said had to be seen to be believed. He passed it outside to his mate and helped hold the bag. No sooner had he turned, than another had took it’s place. This happen every time he turned, no sooner the new hierarchy moved, than the next was there. How sad he always remarks, indeed it is in reality, and not a nice task to have to undertake and that’s for sure. Not counting the ones culled from the night before, he counted and stopped at 101! And still there were more. It hade air vents at bottom front. Some at the back, - consistent to what was once regarded as correct and often done, and a few cracks and knot holes missing etc. He swears that if he hadn’t seen it, he’d never have believed it, further he wouldn’t mind if others don’t. Since then he has added birds, reduced his loft, and is flying better than ever. He always maintains that them birds would have adorned any loft, that any newcomer would be in good stead to have had them… such a shame. Beyt you all the tea in China that they were the most content birds imaginable!

The point I was making is that birds do not like over crowding and if given the choice will give themselves more room. I can not speak for your birds but my birds like their own space and will fight for it if they wanted company and closeness they would not mind sharing their space. Not realy, they command a 'Pecking' distance, and use a threathening posture. Never seen one in a lot where there are lots, and no spare perches where a bird will go and shift another, then go back to it's own perch. You'll see that happen often when there is plenty of room and spare perches. Indeed there will be one or two that just chase the hell out of others for the sheer delight! Won't if they have an establised perch. Especially one that another might occupy quickly. Will relate a post a very true story later, about a fancier that had masses of room and was adamant that a big fault was so - called overcrowding.

Ronnie then there is of course the Beiche System for YBs. Basically it's doing the Darkness and Light systems at the same time. So the YBs end up racing with new body feathers AND new wing feathers. It came from a guy in California and I wasn't too keen that it would work because of our different climates because the babies need to go out flying as early as a month old. But personally I feel I'd feel my way through a season or two first because one needs to get a feel, and then an understanding of what they personally are trying to acheive. Naturaul youngsters fly through the season, and when dropping flights it may well be tey have extra energy for that, which can be used to compensate a full wing. Personally, if any thing, y/b racing to me is only togive them expierence and education if I felt they needed it. I will get my birds up and racing this y/b season as I have 20 odd and that may well be too many. So a couple of races North and South will stand those remaining in good stead. But you know, open hole pigeons seem to stay around and last a lot longer than any other system.

The Light Bulbs etc. artificail lighting are used in the 'Light System. - This can add a wage bill of course lol It is done for the enforced moult too.. same results as the 'Darkness' system has on y/b's. Indeed in the States, and here of course though not via such a high %, many use the 'Light system instead of the Dark system.

Have at Wood Newton, just outside of a place called Geddington there is a massive barn that must be 30 foot high. It is split into two. Each section must be 70 foot long x 30ft wide. This is what was once called the ‘Dovecote’ or Dove House. It has blocks inside for steps in the 2 foot wide wall or so. Only a little door about 3 foot high and 2 wide, always closed, to allow entry. Also it only has a few slits opening at the top where pigeons can pass through, so it is pretty dark. Like I say it was originally used for rearing stock pigeons / Doves for sale, and providing the local inhabitants with a meal, via the ‘Lord of the Manor, The Duke of Buccleugh. Now outside there is a stream. Into the walls it is either a ‘Step’ set out, or a step set in. Then around the corner of the stonework of the Step set in is a part for the birds to nest. Thousands literally most have been raised at one season… think I count nearly 500 ‘Nests’ in each section. Now apparently this produce first class squabs / young etc. –As many will testify now for there are few stray pigeons, and a lot of fantails breeding here most years. Now these youngsters don’t see daylight proper till they find their way out … which is incidentally the first time they are able to drink! Likewise now the same system is used for Widowerhood by many. .. A ‘Widower’ not a Widow, as that is a female. This of course keeps them cool calm and very protective… they go banana’s when you put you hand into their nest, AROUND the corner for it is closed off by a Cardboard system leaving very little light at all inside. This is where they are of course raced to… What goes round comes round I guess

Hope I filled a bit into that for you Ronnie. Was going to mention that about Identical Lofts that a great flyer used to do... But didn't want to complicate things, or confuse the basis. I have a Naturaul Dark system for my birds. Indeed After June the youngsters can have as much light as they want ... till then they can be only out for 8 hours or so ... so have them in by 4 30. Now widowerhood, and that is the correcet spelling and term for it, often have the birds in a darken state... The sun brings the form and heightens condition.

Well in essence this means that both can race motivated at any given week – Hen’s circle taken into consideration. Unfortunately one only has 3 weeks tops… till next chance. Mate as norm. Now one must decide what their’ goal will be or is… A round of early youngsters and a later round during the later part of the season, distance season. Or just a late round, or if a stock loft is in operation. Remember two things here, the moult starts 6 days after the first second round egg laid, and also the Dark system can work just as well for old birds as it does for young birds in regards form and their’ moulting. Now when and how one does it work? Simply the basis is the same. Mated up, eggs, and young hatched… after 5 – 7 days take the hens away in mid morning and put them in an adjacent loft section. - Remember these birds have / or could have raced to eggs… Leave the cock birds with their youngster(s). Then let the hens out to fly and put the cock birds into the adjacent side… like one does for the ‘Round about system’. The hens will soon feed the youngsters on return, as do the cock birds. Seem that they work a little harder too and more keen. Do the same each day… once or twice as suits. Only time they see each other is after a race. Had many points put up against it when I did it, but though I never got to race them, I certainly had well fed and contented babies. Now we have added motivation of feeding youngsters… Now be careful to watch birds on their return, for one, or both may well be peeved and have a go at it’s mate for desertion on it’s return, like they do when eggs are used in such like manner … or really play up to them, now if that happens, fit celibacy rearing parents are a boon. I often feel that hens are more genuine and easier to motivate than cock birds. Great for a race team rearing just one… but fear they’d smother it and over feed it lol. Ps. just seen Ronnies, and last posts, so will read them now lol, as I was typing out on the Word document when they were put up...

Still a closeness... Ever seen any build a nest up the top of the yard.. or away from the loft? Underneath granted.

Logical…? A natural ‘Widowerhood’ system, one that is based on a ‘Round – about – system. I did set it up, but wasn’t able to race and see the results of my endeavors. But was the best youngsters reared condition wise, and am sure that they would have flown 100% with all the motivation ever needed, with out employing any jealousy. Quite simple and easy manageable. I feel has the added merits to the celibacy system. Now I am retiring shortly I may well give it a 100% shot starting next season. Don't believe any one has actually tried this. I have, but didn't get to race them.

OldYellow quoted ...'you claim that overcrowding is a myth , as i can clearly give you 2 examples that it is a problem and you even said that more birds housed then viruses spread quicker so even you admit that it's a problem , so i cant understand why it's a myth ? Well catching any Virus / illness has nothing to do with amount of birds. That is either airbourne, or caught when away from the lofts initially. Granted it may well cause a quicker spread and run through the whole loft, but as I have explained, that in it's self is of no consequence, in deed may well be a good thing.

Besides, no one says that a carrying box is inadequate... 2/3 /4 birds with just a few holes punched in.... and they are ceratianly legal and meet strictist requirements. Just think about the scenario where some fanciers have the birds - either sex for any number of reasons - where the even feed and water them in their box. Now as long as there is air passing by, because it ceratianly won't go upto and through the back, or up through the ceiling, everything is hunka dory. Add to that they excise / freedom, and just where is there a measure of how many. If I put a load of Rabbit hutches side by side and four on top of them and put them in rows with a gap, then surround them with a wire mesh, just how long o high can i go...? Till I reach nex door's I persume. Add to that a false roof like a canopy a foot over their head, just when do they become over crowded?

Blind argueing with the unseeing lol ;D

Old yellow wrote quote ' At no point in your orginal post did you say that overcrowding was a myth for bad management. In my young bird section which is 6ft x 6ft x 2 meters high, i have v- perches there are 50 of them i have another wall which is blank and a part wall if i added another 45 perches in this section there would be 95 perches so what your saying that would be fine and will hold 95 pigeons as they would all have a perch and dont forget the trap i suppose that could sit six pigeons. WELL from the top, it is exactly that, if onedoesn't have a system that caters for the birds correctly then that is 'Bad manegerment'! So if one has WET floors for instance there are 2/3 reasons or more... Bad managerment leaves it as such! Nothing at all to do with the amount of birds in the loft. So one just says 'Over Crowding'! If you had 120 birds in that section old Yellow - my favourite film that - provided that there was adequate ventilation then NO it wouldn't be over crowded. How much air does a pigeon breathe a day? Indeed how much does it need a day. Now if fresh air is passing in / through and out the loft and being replaced by such, just where and how can that be detrimental to their well being? Most lofts today have set backs in regards so called pigeons health. Yet this are mainly brought one , I believe, via the present day fanciers of today and the past 40 years.. progressed worst. the old back garden that had12 pairs in a 8 x 6 that raised a round and half, catered for them easily in their stride and flew nigh every race and the Loft competed in every race of the program, both old bird and young birds alike.

That is the whole scenario... they have TOO much room. So they DON'T move around too much for starters as they don't leave their posts for a second longer than need be! They also eat together, and as soon as one leaves the hopper they all nip up quick. AND the do, and are relaxed and content because THE Widowerhood cock isn't leaving his post either.

Alan done that in early 80's, 83 / 84 I'd say, as I started two doors away from him in 86... Gary Edmunds, was early 90's. One season just racing his y/b's... then 4/5 seasons of domination. He use to say to a couple of old timers... Pool this bird of mine and they'd win. Barry use to pool all his open birds - his Uncle. Barry incidently just passed Gary's record of 4 consequative Fed wins... 2 years back. National winners to boot have their 'Articles' for all to see. Not even traned as y/b's. A couple of training tosses, 150 - 250 miles first race! Another, never trained his y/b's, nor as yearlings, 2 races and topping Pau ... A good article on this would be John Willis article... Of our Rose, Quoted '' I believe there is a few around, on the BICC Website / Elimar's

Yes. Further I's say that many, a good few don't perform as well as they sould till yearlings and been mated / reared a youngster or two in their new abode. This sort of concretes a bonding. -No pun intended lol

Good one that bear one mucker...

Are you just being phefacious? The Loft was just a example. Mine for instance is 6 .6 feet high, 4 ft x 4 .6 I can, and do, house 16 pairs comfortablely and raise a round of youngster. I agree that a smaller loft makes it A. more manaeable, B. Tamer pigeons C. Far better for the pigeons. It gives them a natural constant 'Jealousy' protection of their perch. And as one can relate to, Jealous is the main ingrediants of most 'Motivation' in some form or another. The realistic fact as to why overcrowding is a myth is that many, as indeed our top Fed flyer Barry houses many birds - like many more, in a small back garden loft. His old bird loft is now 10 x 6 with 24 pairs, his y/b houses the y/b's in around 6 x4. Used to be just an 8 x 6 till he tried widowerhood, where he split to house the hens seperately. At a moot where the panel was all household names, they were of the impression, which they did, that if the was a sickness, like y/b for instance it was far far better to let the other eat any vomitted feed so it spread quicker, and they all had their immune shot at once... As to letting it happen ove a season and knackering up most weeks with weekened birds being sent. So the simple answer is as I stated Overcrowding is a math, a 'Lame crutch for A. Bad managerment. B. Further proveded adequate air FLOW is constant, it is better by far to have more, than less birds asthis heighthens their' naturual instinc. . This also augers where for a more contented loft. Besides when their are spare perches, / Nest boxes, hey are skitting about or the time trying to claim more perches / nest boxes. But when AL slots are taken in a proper controlled 'Pecking Order' birds quickly settle down and relax, undisturbbed and thus giving them all important rest. Rest, feed and exercise, then more rest is fundemental to any loft. Strange that the three best distance flyers in past to present worked hat system. And - For me argueably a great flyer that would have held his own anywhere *Worldwide* even had them always a nest box short... And when you walked in Gary's back garden his widowerhood cocks just laid there basking in the sun with wings out, and you had to litually step over them. One in ALL in'... A great national winning flyer from Derby had just nest boxes on poles in a circle. Jealousy astounded. All flew up together, as soon as one landed they all did. Now just how many Nest boxes, - like say Gary Motts lofts, which are also like rabbit hutches stacked on top of each other where the wind / air just passes through can you place in a Garden / field till they get overcrowded?! Likewise with boxes in a wire gage... with slot on side parts to combat the elements when need be. Of course a over lapping roof is needed to keep out the Rain... How Many birds, or pair of birds till over crowded? That is why there is no such thing as over crowding providing their is ample ventilation! If not then that is bad Managerment!