Roland

He went PigeonScout with the same wopsided myths as you... hence the bin liner. Why did he cull.... Because of the time factor, and the reality of getting 140 or so birds rehoused. You know the posts, the answers 100% now. Still digging and tryu to fathom it out how to beatit, or at least contrive a sensible comeback. Strive on! Any way enough of your whimsical red herrings. You still haven't put one sensible answer up ... Just He says' and I know of a flyer ... Gary's birds were so relaxed, that when you enter his loft of WIDOWERHOOD cocks, you stepped over them. The wings, when they were on their perches, just hanged down and brushed your hair. A fancier the 95% of the fancy anywhere would love to be just a 5th as good. In the next decade write to ALL the world leaders ... not those advocating your fly a little less as good as me syndrome, and perhaps in 30 years time you can write a short essay on disproving it.. 2 pages even. But you, won't, and it can't be done, because it is a fact.So factual that I just wonder what the heck am I trying to get the blind to see... I'm not Jesus...

Amtrax don't need too much creaing off there profits... not a case where there is plenty of loot to be made. Still you all know this... just hope on a whim and a prayer for a mirical. No one ever posts ... outside of me ... just what will happen when Amtrax pull the plug. This I fear won't be long now... Then of course in reality, any competitor will have a free hand... But that's never going to happen, besides I feel that Amtrax will soon have to increase prices a bit more with the cost of fuel being what it is.... No need to report stray at all then so many will be happier. then again the Bigger Stud / feather sellers will arrange area deliveries, so just a little extra cost. The rest of us will have to get the tandam's out and make sure the misis is at the front - so she won't notice you're not peddling. 2years -3 years tops... then of course another 20%, 30% or more will pack up ... and more costs. Yet no one has bothered looking, for that magic wand.

So take they... we often have - have to - have limited pick ups. Good for the sport and costs... though the same ones eh.

like we said DovesCot... not enough money in it to squabble over. Say what you like ... must protect my shares .... Amtrax do a bloody good job considering the Millions of birds they must have fetch and carried for the fancier on the past few years. Yes let the knocker knock... But the old adage of 'You can do without Tom, Dick, or Harry ... but how much better can we be with them. instead of bleating, whinging and moaning nonstop at every chance... try having a favourable word with the driver... works wonder and cost nowt ... they never have time for a cuppa so the pocket you still save a little... and every little helps at Amtrax prices lol ;D

You know, these are fundementally great idea's... Wish we had a PR Firm like the RSPB etc. and got other concerns involved. No good just showing tha damage of 'Pigeons' Sure it is to us... But Joe Public needs another slant I fear. Garden birds, Game Birds, Pere taking Ducks etc. etc. then a combined force witha professional approach may well pay dividends. In fact it would no doubt get the message across.... PSPB Slogan Dear little ole lady... Please. please support us via leave a few bob to our noble causes, Like protecting the garden Robin, the finches, ducks etc. so our BOP have plenty to chase and eat'! P.s. just think of the good you could do by leaving your money to us in your will'!

No not would ... Does!

Subject: HOW DO YOU DECIDE WHO TO MARRY? (Written by kids) *HOW DO YOU DECIDE WHO TO MARRY? (Written by kids) * (1) You got to find somebody who likes the same stuff. Like, if you like sports, she should like it that you like sports, and she should keep the chips and dip coming. - Alan, age 10 (2) No person really decides before they grow up who they're going to marry. God decides it all way before, and you get to find out later who you're stuck with. - Kristen, age 10 * WHAT IS THE RIGHT AGE TO GET MARRIED? * (1) Twenty-three is the best age because you know the person FOREVER by then. - Camille, age 10 (2) No age is good to get married at. You got to be a fool to get married. - Freddie, age 6 (very wise for his age) * HOW CAN A STRANGER TELL IF TWO PEOPLE ARE MARRIED? * (1) You might have to guess, based on whether they seem to be yelling at the same kids. - Derrick, age 8 * WHAT DO YOU THINK YOUR MUM AND DAD HAVE IN COMMON? * (1) Both don't want any more kids. - Lori, age 8 * WHAT DO MOST PEOPLE DO ON A DATE? * (1) Dates are for having fun, and people should use them to get to know each other. Even boys have something to say if you listen long enough. - Lynnette, age 8 (isn't she a treasure) (2) On the first date, they just tell each other lies and that usually gets them interested enough to go for a second date. - Martin, age 10 (who says boys do not have brains) * WHAT WOULD YOU DO ON A FIRST DATE THAT WAS TURNING SOUR? * (1) I'd run home and play dead. The next day I would call all the newspapers and make sure they wrote about me in all the dead columns. -Craig, age 9 * WHEN IS IT OKAY TO KISS SOMEONE? * (1) When they're rich. - Pam, age 7 (2) The law says you have to be eighteen, so I wouldn't want to mess with that. - Curt, age 7 (good point) (3) The rule goes like this: If you kiss someone, then you should marry them and have kids with them. It's the right thing to do. - Howard, age 8 * IS IT BETTER TO BE SINGLE OR MARRIED? * (1) It's better for girls to be single but not for boys. Boys need someone to clean up after them. - Anita, age 9 (bless you child) * HOW WOULD THE WORLD BE DIFFERENT IF PEOPLE DIDN'T GET MARRIED? * (1) There sure would be a lot of kids to explain, wouldn't there? - Kelvin, age 8 And the #1 Favourite is........ *HOW WOULD YOU MAKE A MARRIAGE WORK? * (1) Tell your wife that she looks pretty, even if she looks like a truck. - Ricky, age 10

Sense, realism in a nutshell, that is 100% spot on and of course very true.!

one pair + two young to a box max that is my yard stick. You say you have explained there is no such thing as overcrowding so what would you call 2000 birds in a 12+6 loft because going by what you are saying the 2000 birds in a 12+6 loft would be better of and happier than 20 birds in a 12+6 loft. If they were housed in a dry inviroment, and had ample fresh air, of course, most deffinately. As for names... well for every one mention, there are a dozen opposite. A good book came out in 2005 in Belgium, giving merticulous facts about nigh ALL national winners. What the most amazing thing he brought home was, everyone was different, in sizes personalities, etc. etc. End of subject !

Been a bone of contention for a few years now. You will have to pay, or get banned, simple as that. EVERY THING THINKABLE HAS BEEN TRIED, but he operates within the framework of the RPRA, and as such they have to back him. Besides the alternatives in the eyes of Joe Public would cost the fancy a lot more. He use to get £25 a throw, so guess we are lucky... :-/

Wouldn't have put it down at the time if it affected the game bird, or deer etc. I wager. The sick part was / is that they persecuted any one culling them... obviously for a meal. then when they were took to task because they were classed as vermin, and you can't be prosecuted for killing vermin, they hastenly brought out a new word for them. Colney... In pursuit of colney... make you laugh eh. So like Freebie reitriates, Nothing to do with overcrowding.

Dear Pigeonscout I ask again, What is overcrowding... I have asked twice before, also much more, further just what yardstick are you using? You, like many, just let it off at the top of your head, and obviously have never given it ny creedence, let alone serious thought. I have explain in easy, simple real term why there is no such thing... but you insist that there is, because so and so.. or some other crenshsow invalidate reason.

Sorry should read ... P.s. these are not hand fed with a tea spoon...

At last, your getting there ;D Serious are you??? :-/ Just how do these VERY sucess Natural flyer do so well then? Why is it that in hard, and distance races 80% are naturaul, and 60% of them are hens... most likely sitting eggs fourteen days, or youngsters! A ole Cock bird with a BIG Un eh! Phew! where you been, looking, reading when the best results in the main are acheived? Never mind the 1000 - 250 mile hops, a Paper Bag could win some of them on a windy day. the hard races, the distance ones attest to exactly what I am harking on about. Indeed most top boys at ALL distances in our fed are Naturual flyers. AS I have heard in many other cases... P.s. these are hand fed a tea spoon of this and that, a ounze and hald, then.... They are watchfull constantly of the bird a foot away, or the perch, nest box whatever and FLYING the skies. You just answer my very thoughts and substantiated my views, hence I rest my case.

Quoted from OLDYELLOW heres another thought too many rabbits in one area what happens ? mixxy why? over populated ........................ then what ? wiped out populaton Indeed nothing naturual about that. And isn't it a flea/ And isn't the quick spreading and thus eradicating the ailment in all our interests! Are the panniers never crowded? Whay of the Hold overs? Further don't these so called pigeon wizards state that their birds were in better condition when arriving home from a hold over than when they went! Indeed the Rest, basket (Cramped and overcrowed regardless) bring on their form and condition!

Isn't that man made and spread down every year. Illegal to put down, but not to buy and store... And also, don't you just love it when you see the scars after Oct / November and know that they are now nigh immune to it! Nature, like I say taking care of it's self. Pigeonscout, why bring personal accheivements to try and add wieght to your forlorn quest to prove the unproveable. Other than holding that crap sceanrio in the comtempt it deserves I WILL give the only answer needed. which is 'Angelo Dundee, never boxed, never even had the gloves on in his life, let alone sparred etc. Are we saying he wasn't fit to to manage world champions'!!! :-/ :-/ 1000'S of them scenario's, but I probly have a few swallows in a summer to hang up high'!

Why is not a Fund set up!? Why oh why isn't 'Pour On' bought and used by all... bought collectively for the Club / Fed like Para Jabbing is. Does the same job, with hidden extra's to boot.

Remember - for those that treat - to use a different cure / remedy on at least the third time. There are around 27 strains and they tend to get immuned very quickly. Fourth treat with same stuff probably just enhances the canker. It is the same a woman's 'Thrush'. Use TO take a match and twine it around years bad when it got pretty bad... might even have missed a race that week - end if after the Wednesday ... and 1/6 was needed in the pocket lol.

and you have your opinion but your opinion is the opposite of what all the top men in this sport tell us Very untrue..., Have Like I say, just Myths! I'd wager more Top Flyers by far use Numbers than Don't. I've seen some great flyers, names even on here, that have very little walking room in their lofts tjhey are so crammed. And yes they are bred, raised in the purple. Also they and nurtured to enhance their nature, Crowding, Pecking order, and protecting their corner, be it perch or nest. Just answer me one quest Pigeonscout, as this most likely will be my last voice on it. Why don't you ask about their health? Condition, contentment, and above all, just why in carnation is a bird stuck and restricted in a box, inside a loft, better off in any regard that a bird that has freedom, a place to defend and living naturually? All you spout, to be quite candid, is Overcrowding is bad etc. Not why or how. Even your own yardstick needs to be put up and shown. Shown why it is beneficial, and better etc. Other than that, whereas none hold water, you search to get other callaboration. use people 'Thoughts' people you have probably never met... certain not as to why THEY believe and you believe etc. Like many you possibly think of pigeons in a Human term... P.s, they aren't human, they are fluffy balls with feathers that fly, and have an instinc to colonise, and home. They still do, regardless of the thought that we are changing the very basic instinc. Yes we might change a little something, but not their Homing, Flocking etc. Why they even perfer - mostly - to fly together, certainly when able.

http://www.pigeoncenter.org/videotour.html A lot of nicities I found, especially the War Birds ... yes most have seen / heard similar, but for those that haven't take a looksee.

......... if one looks at these bands closely one notices that these bands come not just from one geographic area but from all over Germany and some even from Poland and the Czech Republic. This predator preyed on racing pigeons as they were passing through its territory.

Taken from the Alberta Clasic site.... I wish I knew under what kind of hawk's nest the following bands were found: Dv 010 02 976Dv 0102 04 196Cz 013 01 1099Cz 016 99 81Dv 02005 00 513Dv 02062 04 556Dv 02113 01 2725Dv 02113 00 2407Cz 0223 99 286Dv 0243 00 415Dv 0243 03 435Dv 02749 00 741Dv 03399 03 513Dv 03525 01 93Dv 03609 00 357Dv 0369 98 256Pl 0370 03 1228Dv 03974 03 502Dv 0418 03 277Dv 04269 00 148Dv 04605 04 546Dv 04788 00 425Dv 04932 02 956Dv 05013 04 964Dv 05086 03 229Dv 05086 05 793Dv 05086 03 1Dv 05106 01 2Dv 05112 02 604Dv 05354 97 54Dv 05356 03 25Dv 05723 03 162Dv 05772 02 306Dv 05855 03 356Dv 06044 00 434Dv 06264 03 1609Dv 06269 00 2289Dv 0681 00 429Dv 07036 01 198Dv 07169 00 2136Dv 07252 03 132Dv 07615 02 581Dv 07771 04 1598Dv 07974 00 992Dv 08477 04 174Dv 08600 02 433Dv 08728 97 94Dv 08904 95 5186Dv 09014 95 731Dv 09362 04 334Dv 09408 04 385Dv 09674 02 345Dv 09848 03 311Dv X9409 95 483 A fancier who lives just 3km from the Danube valley used to count 20 nests of the perigrene falcon within a stretch of 14 km but he states that it hasn't been as quiet as this year for a very long time. He lost only 1 pigeon off the loft in a whole year. He found out that conservationists established some Uhu owls (eagle owls) in this Danube valley with the result that the perigrene falcon nests decreased in number tremendously.

So he is entitled to his oppinion, but the pointers / tests etc. have no bearing ON reality and / or facts. A german scientist, had a few dozen pairs of mice. All young born had their tales removed. He was particular that no related mice met to breed, as that breeds it's own problems, - as our pigeon losses seem to more than bear out. He did this constantly to prove that they didn't need tails, especially as they were in an altogether different inviroment, and that as Darwin believed, he would prove that the tails would be come short over time, especially as there was no use for them. After 18 years of constantly removing the tails of umpteen generations galore, he came to the conclusion that it mattered not a jot, as the tails on the young mice were exactly as they were on the original. No smaller, inferior or slimmer weaker etc. etc.

Read it... one persons thoughts... like An experiment in overcrowding was made with mice. If a colony is established with plenty of room their numbers increase rapidly. When the space was reduced to a point of overcrowding the rate of reproduction reduced. Fighting developed. Litters became smaller and a number of females stopped breeding. In some instances, mothers ate their young. Numbers died from ‘stress’ but not from any disease or injury. This occurred even though the supply of food was ample. Thus, a phenomenon, very similar to the medical adaptation syndrome, can occur in animals in response to overcrowding without a shortage of food and without the incidence of disease or parasitation. Would or does this happen to Penquins, Gillmotts, Gulls etc. etc. No and mice are a Herding animal. Likewise with wolves etc. At all times there is a cutting off AND reintroduction of ALL animal / Birds / Fish, because that is what keeps the flock, herd etc. healthy and virile. Likewise with pigons... In bred for Stock, Outcross for racing. Simple that. Knew a Fellow had a bird sent down by gangsters' uncle. Specially bought for the blood / breed. Was he disappointed! Phones him up and say ' **** that bird is poor... why it has a job to fly upto a perch, Golly never compete a race, let alone Win one... can't see .... etc. they reply was 'It isn't to fly, it's to .......ed. Mate it with what you like, and the off spring OFF them will win races... It is just a Blood producing ...' etc. He was 100% right, he wins, and won more than his share from Grandchildren of that bird. So now you know why wildlife has to keep change partners... and WE HAVE to, and SHOULD be doing the same!

;D