Glassfeather

Dave, Apart from 'A' level biology at school, I haven't formally studied genetics, so mostly I have learned from the pigeons. Graeme

It's pied undergrizzle and it is fairly common.

Dave, It's no problem, I'm always happy to talk pigeons! I have never raced pigeons, check out this post regarding my introduction to pigeons: http://forum.pigeonbasics.com/m-1129453239/s-21/#num21 Regarding your question on in-breeding, in my opinion the breeding doesn't matter, it's the selection that counts. Leon Whitney covers it very well in his book "The Basis of breeding Racing Pigeons", and points out that Cleopatra was the product of close inbreeding, from a series of incestuous partnerships. It can be a great tool for the elimination of undesireable traits, after all, how can we eliminate them if we don't know they are there? Just my views of course, no doubt others will disagree. Graeme

Hi Dave, It is lethal, so the offspring rarely make it out of the egg and those that do make it don't last more than a day or so. Heterozygotes, birds with only one copy of the gene, are just as hardy as non-Opals.

Hi Michael, The expression od Dominant opal is extremely variable, some will show a clear white bar, others more reddish as in the photo above. It is a case of using clear blues, and not those showing any bronzing. or combining it with the spread factor. There are other modifiers responsible for white bars such as Toy stencil as seen in white bar and argent Modenas, as well as the German toy varieties. Toy stencil has a different mode of inheritance to Od, and comprises a group of three polygenes: Ts1, Ts2 & Ts3. Then there is Frill stencil as seen in the oriental frills, which also produces lacing in the primary and tail feathers.

Those "White barred mealies" are Dominant Opal pigeons. This is an autosomal dominant gene symbolised (Od) and it is lethal, two Dominant opals paired together will produce a % of non-viable young. Dominant Opal is responsible for some beautiful colourations in fancy pigeons, such as "Isabel":

Hello Michael, I'm sorry about your computer, perhaps it needs checked out? The link, the page, the entire website in fact, works very well for me and several other users.

Try this: http://thedookit.googlepages.com/caveyinfo.htm

Hi there, it is an aspect of pigeon keeping as old as domestication. There was a time when nomadic people, who didn't have facilities to keep hundreds of pigeons in a cote as a ready supply of meat, would keep one or two reliable birds which could lure other birds back. Catching pigeons is a very old practise, there are records dating back long before Christ. It is also believed that the Moors, along with so many things, cultivated this in their birds, and utilized these birds to capture Christian messenger pigeons during their occupation of Andalucia. There are different methods, there are flock flyers such as the Egyptian and Syrian swifts, the New York flights, and the Old Italian "Triganino", which became the modena, see this video: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4GpjYGccpjU Article here: [face=Courier]La Giralda Other than the valuable information extracted from the extensive researches of the historian Raphael Buch-Brage for inclusion in Wendell Levis' "The Pigeon" and "Encyclopedia", much of the data regarding Spanish Pouters has been provided via a collaborated effort to promote them by Andalucian Breeders. The Club Giralda was formed in 1977,after the death of Franco, as the Spanish Columbicultura withdrew from its lethargy. The name is derived from the famous Giralda tower of Seville. The tower was constructed as the Minaret of the Almohad Berber's Mosque in 1184 and has a stairway wide enough for the Christian leader, Fernando III of Castile, to have climbed on horseback in order to look out over Seville, which he captured from the Almohads in 1248.Unlike much of the Arab architecture in Spain at that time, the tower escaped destruction and was preserved by the Christians only to be damaged in the 1395 earthquake. Two years before the restoration of these damages were begun, the sculptor, Bartolome Morel, designed the giraldillo or weather-vane, the statue of La Vittoria, in 1566.In 1890,during the last restoration of the tower, the eight holes at the base under the giraldillo, used by the bellmen as lofts for the Marcheneros, Zuritos and Rafenos, were covered, forcing the pigeons to seek shelter elsewhere in Seville. Hence the name:'Girar' is to 'go round' and La Giralda exists now as part of the cathedral. This is one example of the way in which the fancy in Spain is closely linked with the country's history. Every invasion, including that of the Romans around 205 BC, the Moors in 711 AD, Napoleon’s armies in 1808,the resulting upheaval as well as the losses suffered in the Civil War and the restrictions imposed during Franco's regime, also, the unification of provinces which came about when the Muslim state was overthrown by Christian rulers in 1492,have had a profound effect on the development of breeds and the manner in which they were distributed. Of course, the country and its people had their share of hardships. A look at Francisco de Goya's etchings entitled "The disasters of war" or his painting; "The 2nd of May 1808 ", or the account given of the soldiers' beating of Don Diego Ruiz, a mere child, when he threw a stone at an officer of General Sebastian's regiment, gives us a small glimpse of the brutality of Napoleon's invasion alone. More subtle methods to counter rebellion, however, were the realm of the Almoravid Berber, Yusuf, a Moorish King and a strategist for sure, who offered the value of a half-pound of gold for a Spanish messenger pigeon. These messengers did great service as a means of communication in the towns that remained Christian and resisted the Arab occupation. Whoever captured a Spanish pigeon, apart from its value in gold, also received automatic promotion in the Moorish camp and became a high official in the military government. Enter the ‘Arrulladoras’, the Don Juan that would intercept the messenger and through his seductive powers, entice her home. The appearance of this ‘Progenitor of Pouters’ is as obscure as that of the original Tumbler or Homer, but of course his Spanish title of ‘Paloma de la Raza’ or ‘Pigeon of Race’ was undoubtedly apt. Here are the alleged origins of the Iberian Croppers, which have proliferated in various styles throughout Spain and the Latin-American countries and in more recent times throughout Europe and Australasia. As the ‘Paloma de la Raza’ was cultivated in different regions of Spain, it diversified into numerous types. Each was named according to a peculiar characteristic or labelled according to the town or province of its origin, hence the Valenciano, Murciano, Granadino, &c, &c… Amidst this apparent multitude of breeds, two specific styles arose. One of these styles was distinguished by the head and crop qualities, the other by the manner in which the tail was carried in flight. The Colillano, a comparatively recent creation but nonetheless following the tradition, flies with its tail flat and open. The Colitejo was typified by the way it scooped its tail underneath and so-called because of the resemblance to Spanish roof tiles. From this source arose the Marchenero and the Jerezano, re-named in recent times as the Gaditano, after the financial capital, called ‘Gades’ by the Romans, known as Cadiz today. Also within this group of ‘posture’ pigeons were the ‘Quebrados’, which, went on to play a role in the development of Morrilleros, perhaps the Cola-vuelta, flying with its tail curved upwards, similarly the Colguero or Olguero, latterly the Gorguero, which blended with the other group to become the Jiennense. The Rafeno, the Laudino Sevillano, and the Granadino are representatives of the style characterised by the broad, round, ‘ram heads’, the nasal and chin wattle development as well as the draped, creased and pendulous crops. Time itself and a lack of documentation, unnecessary in an era without standards and exhibitions, where birds demonstrated their own value on the wing, have combined to confuse the actual lines of descent and the way the various races were intertwined. Though we are at liberty to surmise that, centuries ago, these styles and subsequent variations were blended together and with still more breeds introduced via North Africa from the Middle East and the Lebanon. In the midst of the precious metal exchanges, perhaps the camel trains which conducted the bi-metallic flows across the northern regions of the African continent also provided an outflow for the gene pools of Egypt and Syria. The wide range of colours found in Swifts incorporates the Almond (St) series as do some varieties of Spanish Pouters, specifically the Granadino and Gaditano. Both these varieties are native to the southernmost provinces. Another point of interest here concerns the colour brown, widespread among Spanish croppers and found in Owls, Carriers, and Horseman, among others, indicative of a common ancestry. The paintings and drawings by Ruiz Blasco and his famous son, Pablo Picasso, give us some clues as to the type of bird we could expect to find in that region of Andalucia at least, at that time. These are dated between 1878-1890 in Malaga. Incidentally, one of Sr. Blascos’ works, depicting the old type of Jerezano, made it into ‘Life’ magazine in 1955. The practice of luring birds from other lofts in a competitive environment, where there is the risk of losing to the charms of the other fliers’ birds, has always been the driving force behind the development of the various Spanish Pouters. Each of them has a capacity for pursuing other birds and attempting to guide them home. Whatever the reasons for the ‘Magany-cross’, in making it, the Franciscan Monk Llaudis had contrived an innovation. In the wake of the Laudino Valenciano strain, the conformation of the Spanish pouters was to undergo some dramatic alterations. The resulting hybrid-vigour, inevitable from crossing two inherently intuitive breeds as the Valenciano and ‘Azul de la Estrella’, gave rise to a prolific strain. The implications of this were far reaching and resulted in variations on the theme of ‘La Suelta’ and ‘El Hembreo’, versions of the sport indigenous to Spain. At about the time of the civil war, the Laudino strain divided. Birds that went south among traditional breeders were used in the make-up of the Laudino Sevillano, which, in turn, went on to influence the development of other breeds thus ensuring the perpetuation of Llaudis’ name and the Valencianos’ genome. In other regions of Spain, in the Latin-American countries and elsewhere in Europe, this ‘Mixto de la Magana’ spawned the ‘Paloma Deportiva’, the ‘Pigeon of Sport’ or the ‘modern’ thief pigeon.[/face] Painting by Jose Ruiz Blasco, father of Pablo Picasso

These photos show a modern day Horseman at the recent show in Egremont, this pigeon belongs to Scott Morrison, it won Best Horseman and reserve best in show:

The Horseman Pouter-Synopsis of Sources In German they were called Ritter-tauben, in French; Cavalier, Cavalier Espagnol, Cavalier Faraud, Cavalier Ordinaire. In Latin; Columba eques, Portuguese; Cavalleiro or Pombo Ladrao (Thief Pigeon) Now who was the first, in any language, to call this bird Horsman, Horseman, or the correct translation? From Don Raphael Buch-Brage’s files-: 1676: Willoughby, p.132, No. 12: Columba Eques, Light HORSEMAN Pigeon 1678: Willoughby, p.182, No. 12: " Light Horseman…. a b'strd kind of cropper and carrier…. wattles and swollen throats…will not forsake their house…" 1688: Holme, Randle: ‘The Academy of Armoury’; Chester for the Author, folio II, 244/2: "Light Horseman, a *expletive removed* kind between a cropper and a carrier." 1693: HORSEMAN. Word cited in the ‘Oxford dictionary of English’ 1713: Ray, John: ‘Synopsis Avium’ page 61, No. 12: Columba Eques 1728: A London newspaper advertisement: "To be sold…. Carriers, Horseman, Croppers, Powters…" 1735: Moore, John: ‘Columbarium or; The Pigeon House’, London. Page 31: "The Horseman…. matter of dispute, whether this be an original pigeon or whether it be not a b'strd strain, bred between a Carrier and Tumbler, or a Carrier and a powter and so bred over again from a Carrier and the oftener it is thus bred, the stouter the Horseman becomes…. Blue and Blue Pieds are most noted to be genuine and good." Page 38: ‘Columba Tabellaria Guttorosa.’ "The Powting Horseman…. B'strd strain between the Cropper and the Horseman and according to the number of times that their young ones are bred over from the Cropper, they are called FIRST, SECOND or THIRD bred. (NOTE: This is the same method that has been used in Spain for centuries with the Buchonas Ladronas: called Tercerones, cuarterones y Quinterones.) They are a very merry Pigeon upon a house and by often dashing off are good to pitch stray Pigeons that are at a loss to find their own home…Some of them will home ten or twenty miles." 1738: Albin, Eleazer: ‘ A Natural History of Birds, illustrated with 205 Copper plates, curiously engraved from the life and exactly coloured by the author’. Page 41: "The Horseman Pigeon, No. XLV; B'strd breed between the Carrier and Cropper and sometimes the Carrier and Runt…of a dark bluish ash colour…. they are very apt to decoy other pigeons and is often practised by our London pigeon merchants. They take the cock as soon as the young are hatched and carrying him where there is any dove-houses, they throw him up and he will, by taking turns about, be sure to carry off some of the pigeons from the place, or if he meet any in his way, he will endeavour to take them with him." 1741: ‘Complete family piece’, III, 512: Horseman pigeon. 1750: Albin, Eleazer: ‘A Natural History of Birds’ 2nd ed. Page 30, plate 45: Horseman Pigeon 1750: Klein, Jacobus Theodorus (Germany 1685-1759), ‘Historiae avium prodromus cun praefactine de ordine Animalium in Genere &c.’ Lubecae, 1750…. page 118…IV, Columba Tabellaria, Cera magna in rostro, Pavedette, Carriers, the Horseman Pidgeon, Albin II, plate 45(Homing pigeon with large wattles on beak.) 1765: ‘A Treatise on Domestic Pigeons.’ London, C.Barry, 144 pages. Pages 86-88: The Horseman (follows John Moore.) 1767: Girton, Daniel. He copies from John Moore in all the various editions but in some of the cheaper issues the Horseman is not described, simply mentioned. No illustrations of Horseman. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CAVALIER Pigeon, in French 1754: ‘R’ French manuscript, page 80: CAVALIERS. (First French mention) 1759: La Chesnaye Des Bois, F.A.A.: ‘Dictionnaire Raisonne et Universel des Animaux’, Paris 4 volumes. Volume III, pages 450-463, Pigeons: Des Bois shortly describes le pigeon Cavalier, Columba Eques, Light Horseman. 1760: Brisson, J.M.: ‘Ornithologie’, Paris: Pigeon Cavalier, Columba Eques. 1765: Valmont De Bonare, M.J.O.: ‘Dictionnaire Raisonne Universel d’Histoire Naturelle’, Paris. Pigeon Cavalier, Columba Eques. 1774: Buffon, Count Georges Louis Leclers de: ‘Histoire Naturelle Generale et Particular’, Paris, Le Pigeon Cavalier de Willoughby and El Albin. 1824: Boitard & Corbie: Cavalier, Columba Eques. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cavalleiro, Columba Eques, in Portuguese. 1906: Cyrillo Junior, J. J.: ‘Columbideos’, Lisbon, page 82, Chapter XXI. Pombo Cavalleiro, Columba Eques, Papo Ladrao (Hespanhol)(Thief Pigeon)(First Portuguese mention). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From all of the above information one can see quite clearly that the name Horseman Pigeon or its translations in foreign languages was used for the first time by Willoughby in 1676, followed by other English authors. In France, the Cavalier Pigeon appeared in 1754, followed by Des Bois in 1759, Brisson in 1760, Valmont de Bonnare in 1765 and Buffon in 1774. In Portugal it was late in 1906, by Cyrillo Jr., Pombo Cavalleiro or Ladrao (Thief Pigeon) and in Italy as late as 1894 by G.C. Giacheti, page 367, Gruppo VIII, Razza 4: Battitore Spagnuolo o Ladrona. Additions: 1693: ‘Horseman’, cited in ‘The Oxford Dictionary of English.’ This was quoted from ‘The London Gazette’, 1693,No.2853, page 4, an advertisement: "There is 113 pair of pigeons…as Carriers, Croppers, Shakers, Pouting Horseman, Barbaries…to be sold" 1725: Bradley, Richard, ‘Family Dictionary, article Pigeons’: "…from the Tumbler and the Horseman, Dragoons…*expletive removed* bred Pigeons, such as Pouting Horseman, Poutish Dragoons from a Powter or Cropper and a Leghorn." 1728: ‘A London Newspaper’; Advert: "That there is to be sold fine Carriers, Horseman, Croppers, Powters, Tumblers, Barbs, Mahomets, Nuns, Jacobins, Capuchins, Rising Turners, Trumpeters, Turbits, Shakers or Fan Tales. To be heard of at the Windmill in Nicholas Lane, near Cannon Street." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Additional references 1858: J.M.Eaton;‘A Treatise on Pigeons’; page 73: Eaton mentions a Pouting Horseman used by a bird catcher named Nathaniel Preston to bring in regularly stray pigeons. 1916 'The Feathered World year book for 1916', page 78, article by James Laidler: The Horseman, on the decline, fewer fanciers than ever breeding them, is a hardy and attractive pigeon of the 'blowing kind'. At the Glasgow show(1915) the cup was awarded to a blue Horseman over croppers and Pigmy Pouters. Colours are blue, black, chequer, entirely free from white feathers. Sometimes a self dun or cream are bred but blues are favourite. Principal points are: Head; oval and neat, Beak; Black and nicely set, Eye; Bright red, Crop; Large and round, nicely sprung, Body; Small and wedge shaped, slim in girth, butts close fitting to the body, short in feather, Tail; Clear of ground, Carriage; Erect, Feet; Red, not feathered below hocks. 1925: 'The Feathered World year book', page 285:" Pigeons in 1924, some foreign varieties.", by Mr. W.L.Rae: 'Horseman, although only seen in Scotland, where a club exists for this breed, are charming birds and may be briefly described as self-coloured Norwich Croppers. Originally known as Pouting Horseman and fully referred to by Lyell and other writers, there is no doubt they were kept more extensively than at present'. 1929: C.A.M.Spruijt;"De Kropperrassen", page 148: Photo of a blue Horseman. 1944: Prof. Carl Naether, 'The Book of The Pigeon', pages 117,126:"The Horseman was called Carrier in old times." 1951: June, 'Pigeons and Pigeon World', Editor, Colonel Freestone, page 17, replying to a Mr.Wm.Bishop's query:"The Horseman is to all intents and purposes a self-coloured Norwich Cropper. Some of them we saw before the war at Paisley were equally good in crop as the best Norwich and, if anything, they had better limbs.ED" 1953: June, 'Pigeons and Pigeon World', page 8, "The Modern Horseman": Mr.J.F.Richardson, of Liberton, Edinburgh, raises the question of the pedigree of the modern Horseman. This is because he finds that Levi in 'The Pigeon', lists the Horseman as an extinct variety. 'My understanding of the matter is that the Horseman, Light Horseman or Pouting Horseman was a flying bird-as was the Norwich Cropper-in the 17th and 18th century. It was probably a cross between the Carrier and the Old Dutch Cropper and was esteemed mainly for its flying ability. However, it never did, or could, compete with the Carrier, Dragoon, or Antwerp as a flying bird and did not become a 'head' variety as these breeds have done. Consequently, the breeders who remained faithful to the breed concentrated on the pouting ability-as did the Norwich men- and evolved a breed that is as good in crop properties as the Norwich Cropper itself. Devotees seem mainly to have been Scotsmen and I have seen specimens at Paisley in the old days that were first class in their blowing abilities. The only difference between the Horseman of today and the best Norwich Croppers is that the Horseman has no white markings and is also a little longer in the leg than the Norwich. I shall be interested to hear the views of some of our older fanciers on this extremely old and handsome variety and trust that it is not 'extinct' as Mr. Levi imagines. I should also very much welcome a glossy photo of a modern Horseman for reproduction if such a thing exists."(COL. Freestone) 1953: July, 'Pigeons and Pigeon World', page 8: Article by James Mundell;'The Horseman and the common'. 1954: Personal communication between the late James Mundell and Ralph Buch-Brage, who compiled these references. June:'There are not so many Horseman breeders now....they were used as Thief Pigeons here too...Have had some grand ones...'

Maybe you are thinking of Old Dutch Capuchines?

Hi Damian, Sorry these aren't my birds.

Hi Larry, It's true what you say, oriental frills do have difficulty feeding young. The variety with the longer beak was recreated recently (in the last 10-15 years) by some enthusiasts who enjoyed the intricate colours and patterns, and the overalll make-up of the breed, but didn't enjoy the fact that their beaks presented this handicap. There is a Yahoo! group about them here: Classic old frill. It may also interest you to know that some breeders have transferred the genetic modifiers responsible for the frill stencil patterns to other breeds, homer and rollers, some photos here: Old style frill

Satinettes are a variety of Oriental Frill, Try the Oriental Frill Club Secretary, Mr S T Eyles, Tel: 01132 868477

That's a tricky question, there are so many beautiful colours to choose from.

That's just the manner in which genes segregate. Those grizzles also have non-grizzle genes, and the white has non-white genes, so the youngsters have as much chance of inheriting these. That's how it goes.

Hello Damian, White comes in a variety of forms. The type of white you are working with is extreme pied white. There are also extreme grizzles, ash red grizzles are best for producing whites, they usually have orange/red eyes and dark beaks. Then there is recessive white, this is a recessive gene, but pairing two recessive whites together will only produce whites, they will have bull eyes, and pink beaks. It may be that you are actually working with a combination of extreme pied and recessive white, in which case, if you pair the young white you have bred, back to a parent, then you will produce a higher percentage of self whites. Also pairing the pieds you have produced together will produce some whites.

No, it's a bit like the homers, some of them are clueless. There are lots of varieties of Pouter Pigeons, too many to list, see the site on the link below for more info, click on "Pouter Breeds". Some of them are bred solely for exhibition purposes, some are allowed to fly just for the enjoyment of having them flying around. Others, such as Horseman and the Spanish croppers, as well as the Dutch Tils, which are not so much a breed but a blend of breeds, are used as thieves. http://www.gentsekropper.be/gentsekropper/gentsekropper_e.php?f=0

The ones that capture other pigeons.

Limerick Tumbler Club UK

There are no pictures?

Nice chinks. Especially the black teager.

I would keep her, and let her have her pick of the doos.