Glassfeather

That's hilarious, you are a real clown and you really make me laugh.

Jose, this is a link to a video of one of my Moroncelos in flight:

I pm'd you.

This will make you laugh ;D http://www.bbc.net.uk/birmingham/content/webcams/peregrine_falcon_live_webcam.shtml

Yes Sam, these are Horseman pouters, and they are flown, mainly in Scotland, with the aim of enticing other birds back.

The andalusian is produced by combining indigo with spread. Spread is the gene which makes a blue bar or blue cheq pigeon black. A dilute black is dun. Pictured here is an andalusian and a dilute andalusian: Andalusian: Dilute andalusian:

Thanks guys, still a lot of work to do, but we are spreading these colours around, so hopefully they can become established in good pouter stock.

Couple of wing shots of some of our colour projects: Andalusian doo, this is the sort of pattern I am aiming at in our Andalusian, nice clear lacing, good definition, and a good contrast between the colours: These are some variations in the expression of reduced, none of these are spread factor, only cheq and bar, I have yet to combine it with spread: Bar: Chequer: Indigo chequer:

Jose, if you are a real person, that other thread is a bit confusing, first you are Jose, then pedro from ayrshire, then you are not pedro, very strange. Anyway, I have some very good Moroncelos, I must be doing something right because there is a waiting list for my birds now, so I can't help you with stock at the minute, its interesting that you asked about them because there aren't that many around. If you keep in touch, I know a few people who I have given birds to, hopefully will have some to spare after the breeding season, send me a pm if you are interested. Graeme

Hi, It's good to hear your daughter is enthusiastic, I suggest you join this forum: http://www.pigeonchat.org/index.php There are Jacobin breeders there who I'm sure can give you guidance.

This is an American one, but could be expensive: http://www.purebredpigeon.com/ There is a free online magazine at this address, it's a Dutch magazine but they do an English translation: http://www.aviculture-europe.nl/

This is their website: http://www.winckley.co.uk/

No they eat them just the same, easy targets, including the show racer.

Ok sorry guys, you can find a list of fancy pigeon shows at the NPA website, although King's Lynn isn't listed there as it isn't a championship show but they do have a website: http://www.nationalpigeonassociation.co.uk/# http://www.zyworld.com/kevin~keeler/klff/

Held yesterday, a great day out, good company, delicious food, and fantastic pigeons: English Pouters by Graham Bates: Pigmy pouter by Graham Bates: Norwich Cropper by Richard Greenwood: Voorburg by Richard Greenwood: Horseman by S&G Boyd: Brunner by Richard Greenwood: Gaditano by Richard Greenwood: Jiennense hen by Richard Greenwood: Young Granadino doo by Richard Greenwood: Moroncelo by S&G Boyd: Spangle Wests by M.Smith: Mookees by Mr & Mrs M.Auger: Winner of the matched pair class, Italian owls by Eric Chadwick: Sorry, I missed the name on this show racer: Figurita & Granadino by Richard Greenwood: Dragoon by Mr & Mrs Elsdon: Saxon shield by Michael Manser:

Most of the Spanish Cropper breeds are seen here in the UK: Granadino, Gaditano, Marchenero, Rafeño, Jiennense, Gorguero, Moroncelo, Morrillero, Canario, Laudino Sevillano, though not so many Dutch Valencians, although they were popular at one time. At a few UK shows we see fairly good classes. There are also a lot of them flown, and a lot of people fly crosses among these, and crossed with Horseman, and with the Dutch sporting pigeons known as 'Tils'. Probably about two dozen people keep pure races, but many more keep crosses. I wouldn't say heaps, it can be quite difficult to get hold of some of them, they are only in the hands of one or two people, and they only have a few pairs, so you might have to wait a season, much easier than in Australia though, obviously. Lots more in Holland, they have a very large club with strong support: http://www.sisbestuur.nl/

No worries Jason, always happy to help.

Yes but they will still need to be individually penned for show training. If you take them out of an open section and put them in a show pen, they probably won't show off very well, so they need to be familiarised with the show pen, and pen trained.

There is a Yahoo! Group here, where you may find helpful information: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/thiefpouters/

I'm probably confusing things here Jase. To fly them, and for them to pursue other pigeons, you will need to keep them in individual boxes, ideally a dark box, so that the only time they see another pigeon is when they are out on the wing. You can keep them in an open section, but for the purposes of flying them as thiefs, they need to be kept separate. You need to think about a loft with a section for individual breeding compartments, another open section, and a compartment with individual pens. When the birds are paired for breeding they will be in the breeding section, and when the youngsters are weaned, transfer them to the other open section. As the youngsters mature, you will need to box the young cocks separately, then when you split the pairs, leave the cocks in the breeding section, and put the hens in the open section. Keep the birds you intend to fly, in the individual pens.

Usually if people keep them in an open loft it is when the sexes are separated, so you could keep the cocks in one section together, and the hens in another. For breeding, they really do prefer their own space, and you will find a dominant cock will constantly try to expand his territory. This usually leads to fights and possibly damage to a nest. Their preference is for individual boxes, and I have always found they are more successful at breeding when they have their own established territory. Some birds are more territorial than others, and some breeds are extremely territorial.

Thanks Jason, these aren't my pigeons, just a couple of photos taken at shows here in the UK and in Holland. You can make your loft as simple or as elaborate as you like, I have always preferred individual pens for them, but they will usually get along in an open section. I fly mine from a simple box on the wall, 6' x 3' x 18" deep, photo below. You can find various Dutch lofts at these sites: http://www.bk.tudelft.nl/users/feuerber/internet/duiventillen/index.html http://www.spanjolenvliegduiven.nl/ http://home.casema.nl/daimyv5/tillenpage03/tillen03.htm

[face=Times]The Dutch Valencian[/face] [face=Times]Two types of fancy pigeon, which present a challenge in their cultivation, are the short-faced breeds and the pouter varieties. Consider then the challenge offered in breeding a pigeon, which has, combined in its make-up, the two main characteristics of these varieties. I refer, of course, to the Dutch Valencian. This breed has all the charm of a pouter coupled with the cobby, rounded style of an owl. The Valencian’s origins are based firmly in Spain. It is descended from the stylish and charismatic Thief Pouters that have been cultivated in Spain for many centuries. The modern Valencian has, in its ancestry, close links with many varieties of Spanish Pouter. The original Spanish Valencian, very different from the ‘type hollandais’,played a prominent role in the development of other varieties: the Gorguero/Jiennense, the Laudino Sevillano, the Granadino and the ‘modern’ Thief Pouter: ‘Paloma Deportiva’. As a breed, in its numerous guises, the Valencian has witnessed some of the greatest turmoil in world history. The breed is, doubtlessly, derived from the Thief Pouters introduced into Spain as a result of the Moorish invasion and consequent occupation during the eighth century. As Spain was divided into provinces, so the ‘Paloma de Casta’ diversified as breeders in separate areas developed various types. When the Spanish immigrants traversed the Atlantic and populated South America, obviously their traditions went with them. Probably more so during the massive population shifts of the late 1800s and early 1900s, once again, the Thief Pouters were introduced to a new land. Napoleon’s invasion of Spain in 1808 is likely to have left domestic livestock low on the list of priorities. Ruiz Blasco’s paintings of 1878 serve as evidence that the Spanish Pouters were still popular although the civil war, little more than a century later, no doubt hindered any development. It was around this time the Valencian, as if in an effort to escape, once and for all, the upheaval, which, by now, was commensurable with its progress, found a new home. The breed was in the hands of the Dutch. The Dutch breeders, apart from importing birds from Spain in the 1920s, also saw fit to introduce stock from the breed’s second home, Argentina. Almost as though attempting to triangulate the Valencian’s progress, the Dutchmen succeeded in importing birds from Buenos Aires. This step forward, for the Dutch breeders surely developed the Valencian as an exhibition bird, to a very high standard, was not to go unmarked. The British Fancy has never had to face the consequences of an invading army. Elsewhere in Europe pigeon fanciers had to contend with more devastating threats than corn rations and conscription. No sooner had the South American imports arrived and the Nazi invasion occurred. The Valencian’s nomadic history extends across the Atlantic Ocean and most of Europe, it spans over twelve centuries and is graduated by some of the World’s greatest upheavals, depicted by artists of the highest order, documented by poets’ renown. Take a look at these representatives of rural culture, these living antiques. At first glance a typical Valencian, or indeed most Spanish Croppers, might give the impression of a pouter in distress. The crop hangs in front, but is not distended. This is a feature, which characterises Spanish Croppers. The Valencian’s crop drapes down and emphasises the bird’s stylish stance. The crop begins as a dewlap and hangs loosely, gradually broadening to form a triangular shape. There should always be a prominent centre crease, which starts at the lower mandible and extends down the entire crop. At each side of this centre-fold there is a side drape. This is crop structure and regardless of the depth of crop, without the desired structure, the crop is poorly formed. On casual observation you would be forgiven for assuming that a breed such as this would be blighted with crop-related maladies such as sour-crop and crop binding. Admittedly, the depth of crop does present a problem when rearing young, but I have observed more trouble with pouter breeds, which distend a globe than with Spanish Croppers. When a Valencian is in action the crop takes on a pendulum motion, swaying from side to side. The crop should never be so deep as to constantly sweep the floor causing dirty and broken feathers. As I have already mentioned, the crop, viewed from the front or ‘delantera’, forms a triangle. This is one of the vital aspects of the Valencian’s make-up, which consists of three triangles. The views from above, the front end and in profile should be triangular. In the hand, however, the bird is far from angular. On handling, the first thing that strikes us is the quality of feather. The plumage is unlike the ‘hard’ feather of a flying breed, but still has a sturdy though buoyant feel to it as well as a sort of ‘spongy’ texture. Each and every feather is broad and rounded. The tail is short, medium wide and flat. The bird is, overall,’cobby’, deep set and short coupled. As with all pouters, especially ‘Thief’ pouters, the Valencian has to be seen, and heard, in action to be fully appreciated. The broad, roundish, sometimes slightly angular head and well-developed wattles or ‘rosetas’ of many Spanish cropper varieties which are often termed as ram-headed, as well as the pendulous, draped crop, seems correlative with any ability to seduce other pigeons. In their refinement of the Valencian the Dutch breeders have opted for a more smoothly profiled, rounded, almost owl-like head. The frontal remains widest over the eyes though, so that the Valencian surveys all around it and regards others with the look of ‘intention’ that the short, wide,’ box-type’ beak and broad roundness gives way to. The head and crop qualities are rarely evident until the bird reaches maturity. If the centre crease is apparent in a youngster then this is a good sign. The head, especially, requires the first twelve months, at least, to develop and ‘fill-out’ but improvement is still taking place into the bird’s second and third years. The Valencian comes in a fair range of colours-blue bar, chequer, black, grizzle, dun, brown, ash red, white and the ‘gold necks’ that are faded blue. Because of the dominant, sex-linked status of the faded (StF)blue, the hemizygous hens are simply ‘ash’ coloured, almost like dun. The breed is very amicable though temperamental regarding territory. They like their own ‘space’ and will defend the nest or perch fiercely. Their nature can, occasionally, take an aggressive turn. I find the best way to keep them is in 15" square solid sided box pens close to floor level. In flight, around the loft, they are a delight to observe. They have a very charming style and are always ‘on the go’.[/face]

I reckon the Moon probably does influence them, just as the sun does, though I'm not entirely sure what that influence might be.

Clearly you know all about it.