Roland

I have exchanged such with Gordon, and follow his views as I have often stated. P.s. I.B. Sine when has the make of Electolites been of a different make up for Pigeons than in humans :-/ Further, and you are a past master at it, No end of what we - sorry not me - but many give pigeons is in relationship to humans, but in a smaller equation.

Just why do so many use them :-/ Many Vets say Stay away from :o What do folks think are the benefits of giving electrilite :-/ Water is the main component of blood and cells. It fills most of the spaces around cells. To function normally, the body must keep the amount of water in these areas in balance and relatively constant. Too little water (dehydration) or too much water (overhydration) in the body can cause problems. The water in the body contains dissolved minerals called electrolytes. They include sodium, potassium, and calcium. The body must also keep levels of electrolytes in balance and relatively constant. The balance of electrolytes is closely tied to the balance of water in the body: If one changes, the other usually also changes. To maintain water and electrolyte balance, the body must replace water and electrolytes that are lost as the body performs its necessary functions. The body loses water and electrolytes primarily in urine, produced by the kidneys. Water and electrolytes are also lost in sweat, feces, and air that is breathed out. The body obtains water and electrolytes primarily from beverages and foods consumed. A healthy body can adjust the amount of water and electrolytes lost and consumed. Thirst, hunger, and the kidneys help with these adjustments. For example, a person who feels thirsty usually drinks more fluids. When a person becomes dehydrated, the brain releases a hormone called antidiuretic hormone. This hormone signals the kidneys to retain more water by making and excreting less urine. As the body ages, it changes in ways that make older people more likely to have problems with water and electrolyte balance. The older body contains less water. Water accounts for 60% of body weight in healthy young people but for only 45% in healthy older people. In older people, the kidneys are less able to regulate the excretion of water and to concentrate urine as needed. Therefore, more water may be lost in urine. Also, older people often do not drink enough water, especially on hot days, partly because they tend to be less thirsty. If older people have problems with walking, they may not be able to get themselves enough water to drink. Older people who have urinary incontinence may drink less because they are worried about getting to a bathroom in time. Many disorders, especially those that cause fever, vomiting, or diarrhea, can result in problems with water and electrolyte balance. These disorders may be short-lived (for example, pneumonia) or chronic (for example, kidney failure). Many drugs, especially diuretics, can also cause problems. http://eprints.bbk.ac.uk/82/ So just what, and how does one Know exactly which part is hampered .... if any :-/ http://www.merck.com/pubs/mmanual_ha/sec3/ch18/ch18d.html

Peace quiet and rest ... as for '... put some electrolight in water, :-/ :-/ :-/ Need to get the confidence back and the quicker settled the better of course. May help to darken their loft a mite too.

Cream will rise to the top eh Frank . Very true, and in all walks of life the same can be said.

Very true, and good to have you back. But that Frank is also - unfortunately very true of the Home 'Names' too I fear.

Word of wisdom. Exactly that! Gosh do we run for the medicence cabinet, discuss with the doctors every time our droppings change :-/ :-/ :o It is normal, regardless what the 'Ego Trippers' spout. First signs of Troubles ahead is best gained from the roof tops - never mind blumming droppings. Then when you first go into the loft the EYE is the mirror of the soul so to speak. Will tell you instantly if any thing amiss .... same as which one to pool! That's not to say thet your two cock birds are 'Off Colour' may be.... but first of the first two are the best tellers.... Then IF the roof tops and eyes tell you that something is wrong.... Then ask, A on here, or an expierenced club mate first THEN if need be the Vets, but to be honest most times a vet is involved - outside when we use them to jab for Para etc. - is the fact that it is the fanciers fault,they should see some one first. Tell you what, very often, and in very many cases, if a Vet is sought, chances are that it shouldn't be in the loft any way!

First part I'd agree 100%! Second part, I love them sitting on the roof tops etc. You will notice, observe, and see far far more there than you will ever see in the loft. Every thing, their' 'Flag' they put up there when they want you to see it.

Is really for Thrush... Yeast.

Over crowding is a proven Myth. They leave lofts with plenty of space to go and perch within a peck from other pigeons :-/ :-/. Never see them up street / church pigeons using the ample spaces galore! No they go and get as close as they can to another pair, and stay just a 'Pecking order' distance away. Just a lame crutch, over used by some for own advantage, too many that have no idea, and just repat because they think it sounds right and clever. When I was - like very many others - we had to step over breeding pairs on floors, Nesting watering cans and buckets, and between two bricks. An 8 x 6 back garden loft house 24 old birds and 24 youngsters. All in fine fettle and great condition etc. etc. But that is another thread. But it is just an over used invalid statement because Most know no different. End on this topic. So yes many good and sucessful lofts have had and did have good winners of strays. Dick Catlin use to ring the youngsters in the church, and did great. Mr Wills worked on the gas board. Every Black youngster on the Silo's were rung and kept.... he scorched the backside off the Fed.... sould out big time 4 years later to a stud.

Yep pjc, and what if a day, before filling up a slot on a street derelict shop window, that bird may well be class in a 'Good' loft under good managerment as a class bird. In reality I have no bones in making a statement like 'If one knew the 'Pedigrees' or what they was born from, then one could certainly take a 12 pairs and be more than content with building a loft on them'. 8) 8) Further to the strays thay end up in our lofts. Now y/b's one tends to make allowances for. But what of the 2 yo and above, that may very well be a good consistant bird.... when did that become crap, and unfit to breed from? :-/ Indeed doesn't the arguement stand 'There are better bred birds cluttering up the streets than in many fanciers lofts'. Or, 'The cost of birds that clutter ....' Like I say, many in prior to the 50's 60's, before Louella broght the prices down especially, Many lofts were set up, flew winners from such birds.

I hear and read constantly about birds breeding this that and the other, both good and bad. The main difference being When in the loft, and 24 hours later when no longer there. What happens over night to make a great bird, bred in the purple off Pedigrees that cost stacks of sheckals to the bird being Crap! Yes, it no longer being in the loft is a good starter I guess ;D ;D But what if it had been bought solely for breeding purposes and never tossed or raced? Could it breed the goods? :-/ :-/ I often say out of 200 8 winners would be good! Yes I've like most of you have seen and had, handled birds that made you drool.... and never did a days proper flying ever. Similar with a hen! Are these the Father of the foundation of a new loft you had such great hope for, spent great wads to buy, and spent time effort and more dosh to suceed! :-/ :-/ Just why are our streets etc. atracting so many great 'World Beaters'. Would you buy these strays :-/ Or have them even as a gift? :-/ :-/

' Quote '.......... No doubting that the strongest will survive Roland, your analogy was excellent, hope you weren't genuinely ill enough to have two doses of penicillin though? Unfortunately it is true. Stress is really a taboo... Seen and saw marvellous results by birds which in all honesty in regards of this 'Stress Related' crap should have been vomitting, droppings every where and necks so badly twisted that they could be used as a 'Cork Screw. I remember when training birds, they went with birds stnding on top of each other! Left like that for up to 3/ 4 nights in an adjacent shed, to sharpen they want to be home! Golly many tricks of the trade should have in this cases had the birds in need of being culled. Just the same as the 'Lame Crutch', the poor excuses in the myth of 'Over Crowding'! Conditions of course do have a bearing.... mostly when WE force a unnatural situation alien to them TOOO MUCH! A little is fine. But Samonella etc. is a curse brought on by the weaken of the constitution... I further believe the UNNATURAL allowing of incest is a main cause. Been proven, that's why there is a law against us marrying too close, why Nature is set up to make it mpossible to do! Regardless what ones first thoughts, impressions are of 'In the Wild' further examination shows it just doesn't happen. .... Or when it has.... the young are killed of. So MANY birds are carriers unfortunately, and will, and do, and have passed it on.... to much ailment.

Taken from the Alberta Classic site. Copied from a German pigeon site like ours. Guten Tag, Brieftauben kennt fast jeder, Brieftauben haben in der Öffentlichkeit immer noch ein ganz gutes Images. Die Faszination, die von Tauben aus geht, die von 1000 km zum heimatlichen Schlag zurückfliegen ist ungebrochen. Dazu ist die Taube ein Zeichen von Frieden und Liebe. Aber die Zahl der Brieftaubenzüchter nimmt rapide ab und es kommen keine Neuen dazu. Das passt eigentlich nicht zusammen und doch ist es so. Nun könnte man sagen, es ist eben Zeitgeist, die ganzen Nachteile werden ins Feld geführt, über die hier schon ausreichend gesprochen wurde. Aber auch bei anderen Tieren, die man hält, hat man Verpflichtungen. Und Tiere sind doch durchaus modern. Viele halten einen Hund, Katze, Meerschweinchen, Hamster oder Stubenvögel. Einige halten noch Zwerghühner, Hühner, Rassetauben oder sogar Flugtauben. So wie ich es sehe: Der Brieftaubensport verpasst seine Zukunft, in dem er es einem Neuanfänger, Wiedereinsteiger oder Anfänger zu schwer macht. Der Beginn mit Brieftauben ist bei einer Bestandsgröße, wie sie üblich ist, zu teuer, zu Zeit aufwändig, zu belastend, usw. Und hier muss was geändert werden, wenn Neue dazukommen sollen. Meiner Meinung nach hat die Aufblähung der Bestandsgrößen dem Brieftaubensport geschadet. Ein Beispiel aus anderem Bereich, damit jeder merkt was ich meine: Früher vor 45 Jahren hatten wir in der Bundesrepublik sehr viele kleine Lebensmittelhändler. Große Supermärkte waren noch nicht da. Das hat sich in den darauf folgenden Jahren geändert. Viele Geschäfte wurden größer, ganz große kamen dazu und die kleinen wurden weniger bis sie nicht mehr vorhanden waren. Die großen Ketten haben alle Möglichkeiten, kleine zu verdrängen. Sie haben alle Vorteile des Großbetriebes. Stellen sie sich jetzt vor, sie wollten einen Lebensmittelmarkt aufmachen. Sie werden feststellen, das sie keine Chance haben – wie ein Anfänger bei den Brieftauben. Dazu muss man anmerken, das die Großen im Brieftaubensport gar nicht erkennen, wie groß sie in den Augen eines Interessenten, der mit Brieftauben beginnen möchte, sind. Diese etablieren Schläge sind doch tatsächlich der Meinung, 25 Witwer ist ein Kleinbestand. Und daran krankt der Taubensport und schreckt neue Mitglieder ab. Ein Freund von mir, er hatte als Jungendlicher Tauben zusammen mit seinem Vater. Er ist verheiratet und hat 2 Kinder, ein Haus mit Garten und einen sehr guten Beruf. Ich habe ihn auf Brieftauben angesprochen, nein, nein seine Frau würde ein Hobby in dieser Ausdehnung in Zeit und Geld nicht mitmachen. Da muss angesetzt werden. Diese Leute gehen dem Brieftaubensport verloren. Diese Gründe sind doch auch bei mir ausschlaggebend gewesen, obwohl ich dem ganzen sehr positiv gegenüberstehe. Ich hatte damals 17 Witwer, mit denen ich geflogen bin. Dazu habe ich 30 Jungtauben gehalten. Wenn ich jetzt wieder Brieftauben anschaffen würde, hätte ich einen Kleinstbestand mit 3 Paaren für die Zucht und 5 Witwer zum Fliegen. Das währe ein wirkliches Hobby. Das könnte ich mir sehr schön vorstellen. Ich könnte mich wirklich um jede Taube kümmern. Aber im Rennsport Brieftauben ist das nicht möglich. Da ich von vorne herein keine Chancen auf irgend was habe. Aber Rennsport ohne Chancen ist Blödsinn. Wie aufgebläht die Bestände bei den Brieftaubenzüchtern sind, kann man schon daran erkennen, das Sammelkotproben durchgeführt werden. Was für ein Blödsinn. Das wird in einem Pferdestall in dem 50 Pferde eingestellt sind, auch nicht gemacht. Da werden die Tiere einzeln untersucht. Aber bei der Menge an Tauben, die gehalten werden, wird das als nicht praktikabel erachtet. Das sagt eigentlich alles. Gruß Rudi Translated means Good day, Almost everyone knows pigeons and pigeons still enjoy a very good image with the general public. The fascination with pigeons who can return from 1000 km still creates an excitement that is undiminished. A pigeon represents the dove of peace and love. But the number of pigeon breeders is rapidly decreasing without any new ones being recruited. Now one could say it's just "Zeitgeist", with all the disadvantages being enumerated although they have already been adequately discussed. But one has responsibilities also with other animals that one keeps. Still, having pets is quite fashionable. Many keep a dog, cat, guinea pigs, hamsters or birds; some even dwarf chickens, chicken, fancy pigeons, or even flying pigeons. As I see it: The pigeon sport misses its future because a beginner or returning fancier finds too many obstacles. To begin with racing pigeons with the customary size of the flock is too expensive, too time demanding, too stressful, etc. And this is where changes need to be made if one wants to attract newcomers. It is my opinion that the increase in flock size over the last few years has harmed the racing pigeon sport. Here is an example from another area, so that everyone understands what I mean: Before 45 years ago we had in the Federal Republic many very small grocers. Large supermarkets did not exist at that time but this changed gradually in the years that followed. Many stores grew larger, some very large ones were added and there were progressively fewer small ones until they disappeared altogether. The big chains have all possibilities to oust the small ones. You have all the advantages of big business. Imagine now that you wanted to open up a food market. You would notice that you'd have no chance - just like the beginner with racing pigeons. It must be noted that the big names in the pigeon sport do not even realize how big they appear in the eyes of a new prospective fancier. These established lofts are of the opinion that 25 widowers are a small team. And this is why the pigeon sport suffers and what discourages new members. A friend of mine in his youth had pigeons with his father. He is married now and has 2 children, a house with a garden and a very good job. I have mentioned pigeons to him - no, no, his wife would not tolerate a hobby of this scale in time and money investment. This is where one needs to start. These people are lost to the pigeon sport. These reasons have been crucial also for me, even though I look at the whole with a very positive attitude. I had at that time 17 widowers that I flew with. I also kept 30 young pigeons. If I started again with racing pigeons I would keep a small loft with 3 pairs of breeders and 5 widowers for flying. This would be a real hobby. I can imagine having fun with this. I could really take good care of every pigeon. But such is not possible in the competitive sport "racing pigeons". Because there is no possibility to accomplish anything right from the start and a competitive sport without any possibility of accomplishments is nonsense. The recommendation to take loft samples of droppings shows how bloated the flock sizes are. What nonsense. That would not happen in a horse barn with 50 horses. Here one examines every animal individually. But one looks at this as impractical with these large teams and this will actually tell you everything you need to know. End of quote Again, brings to mind the very many times I say ‘There is a Them and Us’, a ‘Have and have not’ Syndrome. Of course won’t change so live with it eh! As i have often ruufled a few feathers when 'Names' and Some feather merchant say to the coneterary with a flippant of the hand 'I have to buy... etc. -And most also BOUGHT their Location - as if everyone is able and can do the same. Further the syndrome that we NEED 100 y/b's to compete - Hawk / BOP is not taken into consideration here, as some feel that they have to feed them, and hence breed more'.

Spot on.

JarGre writes quite rightly '.........it would have to be in one or the other from the beginning. Moving birds does cause stress, there's no two ways about it but it doesn't just make up illness' out of thin air.' end of quote. So in reality the fact is Somewhere a Bird(s) is / are infected. Now a carrier can look in mint condition, win in the show pen etc. Race well even.... and not show a single sign ... But here the crux is OTHER birds etc. may wll, and indeed many do not, fare as well! Likewise us, if in condition a cold can be of little strife... if off colour etc. and you catch a cold, well it can knock you side ways as if a flu. Now the most important thing one must always buy before anything else is 'Good Constitution'! Every thing else ia a bonus I believe. Like now, have had a terrible virus. Couldn't even sip a little water, pain throat real bad big time. Long story shot, had two consecretive treatments of the (most powerful) penicillian. A lot lot better, but still not right. Went Docs again Sunday (a Key Doc) and politely told, ' You've had a real bad virus. Nowt more we can do... strepsils etc. will help, can have any more Penicillian as you've had more than a good quota, and you system will now, given time beat it! Som am up and down like a yo - yo. Now depending on my natural immune system, and Constitution - which has alway been brill - I am making good in road to getting back on feet and top form. A lesser mortal would of course cave in and take a lot longers lol ;D.... same as a better mortal would be healed a lot faster.

Agree Swilcox, no need to point fingers at all. Had off a renouned name just 6 y/b's. Sure looked and grew the part full stop.... then WWwwhoooooooooooossssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh crap it the fans... that was in 2006.... and sine then this is the first year - having treated immensely and over the top and got shot of so many birds .... that I have raised good healthy y/b's. New stock in now etc. of course all except just the one! So if truth, then I'm all for being warned to be careful of certain 'Places to Buy from'! But you know, the sad reality is that any new birds to - day should be keep completely clear for a year and more from your own stock.... But then how could one race :-/ BECAUSE they may very well be infected, and become carriers from contamination in the race panniers!

Yep I for one certainly is pleased he is back. You know, Just the day before he went off the air so to speak, I ad deleted some phone numbers on my mobile - thinking that they were all on my Dairy.... You've guess it, Had had P.c. in for repairs a couple of times, and when asked if I had a back up of every thing I said yes, but the dairy was an older version on a disc. Was peeved I couldn't even phone.... Still he's back to rattle a few consceincious lol. Good on yer Frank! 8)

:o :-/ :-/ 8)

Fortunately haven't had rats.... Mice yes.... caught one last week .... first since January. Just about every house hold has one or the other... If yoy think diffently then time to check it out big time! I rebait my traps regularly. Sure the swarm into the houses off the fields in Autumn. BUT most don't leave. So trraps etc. are on over time then. I have about 12 down most days.

But you'll no takers on that Oldyellow.... :-/ Um, come to think of it, just a few lol ;D ;D ;D

You really need a Lorry driver.... can fetch in from the continent, France / Spain etc. very cheap there too.

Suprised no one seems to remember Tom Roberts(on) (Robinson). Had some belters of him in 1993.