Roland

Yep likewise! Perhaps the Save our Songbirds / I. B. etc. etc. on here etc. can produce a little help in regards literature. Literature is the art of written works. Literally translated, the word means "acquaintance with letters" however a little buff and where to obtain would also be more than useful.

With a crumbled digestive biscuit. Leave in a pipes all around.... Rats - like mice seldom if ever pass by a pipe, but venture into it. So Cats, Pigeons etc. are not affected either. You won't have rats and Mice.... Rats quickly eat any mice. So the sharp ones disappear... likewise the not so sharp ones lol. Go for it, good luck, and there will be more than just the odd one. One gone, forever set traps / feed for them as they - others - will be back.

One must remember -WITHOUT doubt - that the RSPB will tinker at us. State this and that, and use every subtle trick in the book to thawt any movement on our part. Like when we threathen - well some of us - to hold all the birds in and not race, Yes it would have caused a lot of distress to the BOP's meal times and youngsters.... Slagged and slighted of as a 'No hoper' by the RSPB - Who were worried for their birds meals only! It would have had catostrophic effects on the youngsters in the nests. Simple put the RSPB only want us to provide they BOP with meals FULL STOP! Simple IGNORE them!!! ... Remember when the POUR Invertimin was discover to do hawks no good! The adverts stating that Rapture / BOP handlers USED it themselve etc. Was true BUT NOT the Pour on! So that died a death and the RSPB laughed again at us! We will have several here trying to state this that and the other to off put and decry it / us. Unfortunately many faint heart will rather go along with them as an excuse to stay dormant! the Saddle works, is legal. Trapping and removing of certain species is legal! etc. etc. So as the Goverment, and our governing body daren't do oat, it must be upto the genine fancier to act.... within the law granted.... AND NOT according to what the RSPB would have you believe. Jimmy White has TWICE now posted the legalities and each time - and more no one acted... We must act, and gain momentum and start protecting our birds in any legal way possible. And if certain bodies don't appreciate it.... then tough, for one thing they certain don't care for us!!

I will, with Richards’s permission, run a race programme for a certain night. 10 races. Including Dogs, Steeplechases, Hurdles, Flats and Pig races. Then when at a appropriate 'Fund - Raisers' come available, that I am doing, I will get the winners and finishing orders FROM that night! Maybe we can have Horses sold and Jockey’s too. Like £3 to buy a Horse... £15 paid to winner. Jockey’s sold, say at £2 each, paying £9 to the winner.... or £5 for the two, then £25 to the winner. Totes betting based on 50% / 50% payout, I.e. ‘All wagers in £1 units. One may have as many units as one wishes to buy in £1 units and as many bets on as many runners in any race. That would then be 50% to the winners that bet the winning numbers and 50% to the cause. Would need independent name(s) to take the cash in, and then to send out the cheques etc. Of course any and all expenses paid out from the fund. If interested please say so, and perhaps we could start another heading / topic especially for the fund! Of course donations would be gladly accepted. Indeed the 10 races could be sponsored say for £25 each and the races named after this. I will put up the names, of the runners and riders of each race in a program form. Indeed one can even have separate 'Races' where they sell in the runners and riders at work / home and then they will know that £25 of the £40 would being going to their home / works etc. and all have a winner. Now how many times the 'Races' can be sold is immaterial, as each race then would have multiple winners etc. But every winner would get £15 or £9 or the £40! Will explain more as and when needs be.... That’s if folks are interested. I will not handle the money though! I can think of some good names on here that hold credence and as such well trusted.... But I will work hand in hand throughout with them all!

Now if we wish to cook on gas, I say no time like the present eh! 8) 8)

Also, why oh why isn't there a fund for buying and releasing eagle Owls! :-/ :-/ Perfectly legal as they are now classed as a native bird. Believe £400 was the asking price 6 years ago... a lot less now. Indeed a lot less than what many would spend on a pigeon! :-/

Sadly one must remember that the RPRA are governed, and frightened of the members out cry - yes quite posibly to retain the feathered nests etc. But like the PR Firms that they wished, and put feelers out for, the MEMEBERS out cries are of 'Don't you dare spend our money on thet'! Could have, and should have BOTH things up and running yonks ago. When too many wasn't affected, they couldn't and selfishly wouldn't see further than the end of their noses. Having said that Most won't take note, nor stock of Bilco, Les etc. proven and worthwhile appoach and ehelp them selfs.... yet will again soon be spouting 'Hardships' and Blumming Bop Hawks etc. :o Fortunately I am not affected, but have in place already means to deter and counter them if need be. If only those that keep asking, would actually do the same! then the burden would be lightened substantialy.

No it isn't hawkes or BOP that is a achilles heel in our sport - sorry game in Poutry... We can't be bother to even get recognised as a sport!!! :o But you know, once again, and forever we get, and will do, the repeats 'Advice nded' in regards Hawks and BOP. Sorry but it just hammers home the fact, as I see it, that the vast majority just want to sit back and whinge, hoping and expecting some magic wand to appear to champion our phlighyt - definately not a 'Cause' because again the vast majority want to sit on back sides. I of course am NOT refering to the Novice newbie her. But lets face it, Bilco, Les, and many more have put forward so many time time sensible, and feasible, and very practical ways of what to do, and what we should be doing... Why aren't we? Apathy.... not even that! More like what I say above, take it leave, and if irks, then good for no appoligy will ever be forth coming. Cap fit :-/ :-/ Then wear it.

This also make interesting reading I believe. Again it is Human - which I feel are far beneath the wild life in regards health / fitness and conditioning themselves. http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Noakes.htm

Well I would say - personally - that it is 30% good pigeons, 60% and the other 10% make up of good fortunes, etc. etc. Of course you need good pigeons... Then of course you need the location, the bigger the nett the better the location. - Have never seen, and yet to therefore, any person moving to, or moved their loft to the West to get better a performance. That said, any strain that has a good constition two wings and fearthers etc. will do for a strain. Personally I believe the Van Der Plucker take all the beating at any distance ;D

Won't both them .... But you have to keep moving it around to fool any BOP.... if it does at all after a short time.

Oh that was, and is still so very true. Natrix etc. won sprints (50 miles) to distance as did many of Stn's birds, and as do many other's today. System I believe is the most essential part. As for humans, Well Seb Coe does on the last 100 metres of 1500 in 11 .1 second, 220 24.1, He could run the 400metres in 45.5. and just over that on a last lap Like many do / have done, Gosh that is sprinting after a Distance being run. And I think Ovett often was quicker.

Well this thread - to me - just goes to prove that a Strain is just that, and firstly mostly a pigeon. All shape sizes and strains are winners.... and likewise losers big time. Guess I'll carry on believing 'Pigeons to win race' V 'Strains cost the money'!

See Myron has posted this....

Birds feathers are for Bouyancy. The head to shoulders are streamlined for flying surely :-/ many speak of the speed lines from beak to cheat.

Thought firs off one was enquiring as to whether i he keel being straight of bent like, and not the flesh aside of it. May well tell some condition PHYSICALLY, but mentally, etc. .... well that is another story. I also believe it makes not a lot of difference whether the keel is straight of a flipping circle lol.

Well I think Carl Froch would have lost the decision. Had him a round behind .... Judges in America may have had him a couple more behind. Yes was a new expierence for him etc. And never really got into a stride ... But showed what champs are made off. I.e. into their back garden for starters, and guts and determination to pull out all the stops. As for calling out Calzaghe .... well he was the reason he retired in the first place, and gave up his title - understandably rather than fight Froch. Also goes to show why Joe never fought so many! Taylor just being one of them. Toney, Hopkins when was a force.... or anytime before his second retirement. Jones etc. etc. But redit where credit is do. He'lll more than likely still always be regarded better than Froch, made a pile, which has to be good, was - like Hatton, very well staged managed. So I guess Joe will stay on the side lines and fire below the belt shots at Froch.... And who can blame him? safer there, and has nothing to prove in the publics eye. And the beauty is, IF Joe took it up he would be in a win -win situation. He he won.... well would shut me and many more up.... and if he lost it would be - unlike Jones and Hopkins scenario - the critics would say 'So what ... if he'd fought him earlier, or in his prime... Well done carl. Joe, be quiet, you have made your money, earnt YOUR' glory, so give over now and stop trying to gain more at Frochs expence ... a man you point blank for 6 years side stepped. A man that gave you great credit, and deserves better from you!

8) Could solve the problem .... soon have none to send. It is on subscription for a reason .... Not least to stop idiots like your friend getting it .... but he will, have no sensible or practical knowleadge.... Except of course '......... So and so uses it', and '...... he up the road had some....' strueth give us strength. :o Time there was a 'Pigeons Prayer' in operation I guess! :-/ :-/ Like the boxers had 'Dear god, protect me from silly match makers and brave trainers' eh! 8) 8)

Yes agree pjc, 100 with you on that. We have exhausted our dislikes several times on that score, and it is of course clothe ears unless it jingles to the sound of money.... and exploitation I fear. Mind, clubs should make a stand to clear up the feral!

i detest straycatchers(puke)(puke)(puke)(puke)(puke)(puke) Sham really. I advocted that each club spent a little time every so often to trap and clean up the Feral / Strays from Town centres etc. Was met with .... Well really with 'Good idea if YOU want to do it' Full stop. Now with a proper stray catching device etc, out of publics eye, I still believe that it would be a good thing .... Seen a street where - ok is derelict now - just off town centre where they have literally picked the wall too bits... hardly any lime cememt left etc.... HARDLY A Good thing for the genuine public to see and be conscouis of. Especailly when -ONE DAY we may very well want them to take on board our phlight regards the BOP etc. JMO

Yes, I know quite a few that massage their birds wings after a race :-/ Yes some famous names at that.... and probably many famous names that time

If I read your question / statement correctly, then you have not understood the point I was making. I wasn't talking about what's in electrolytes. I was talking about whether the pigeon needs them. My opinion is that it doesn't, because the pigeon's system is totally different from humans and is designed to stop it losing 'salts' during heavy exercise - flight. During flight these 'salts' are needed to keep the body temperature from rising too high. Yes did get the main gist wrong.... I like you are a none believer. Pigeons - like must creatures are very resiliant. And do recover naturally very quickly. Indeed am suprised even more that some feel the need to applied before a race - tosses next I presume :-/ - However what part of the makeup - if any - is needed to be replaced would I feel take a very lot of scientific resauces to find out - way above what the norm Vet even has at hand .... yet some just apply willy nily regardless :-/ :-/ Rest and fresh air fresh feed and water is by far a better, and more sensible way to go surely. Certainly would do any harm.... Further let me say, that I believe greatly that when the cup is brimful.... then no more can be added to it regardless. Extra just passes through .... and then for instance we have the question popping up constantly 'Birds Droppings are .................' streauth :-/.

It's great to go out and go hard in your exercise routine. Of course, sometimes the next day you're so stiff and sore, you can hardly move. Is it really a case of "no pain, no gain"? What's Good For You tests six different ways of beating delayed onset muscle soreness — the pain that hits you the day after a tough workout. The test Why do we feel so bad after exercising, when we're told it's supposed to be good for us? When we push ourselves physically, fibres in the muscles tear. The body's defence mechanism sends fluid into these areas, causing swelling. The swelling triggers pain receptors and you wake up stiff and sore. Physiologist Dr Shona Halson works with top athletes at the Australian Institute of Sport in Canberra and says this is a good pain. "Generally speaking, those muscle tears are a good thing," Dr Halson says. "What happens then is the muscle repairs itself and it repairs itself stronger. So you do get a really strong protective effect from doing a single bout of damaging exercise. Normally, you're protected for about six months." James Brabon is the brains behind Bootcamp, a military style exercise program. He's going to give his class the mother of all workouts on a Sydney beach, to make sure they're good and sore tomorrow. These six recruits will then each try a different method of beating the aches. "It's going to shock their body a little bit," James says. "But that's what you need to do to really make them certain that they're going to get the delayed onset muscle soreness. And we know they've been training at a high intensity prior to this as well." Method one to beat muscle ache starts before the exercise. Craig's been given compression garments and he'll wear them during and after training for as long as possible. After the recruits make it through their harsh workout, they are given their muscle ache solutions. Will's method, the second after Craig's compression garments, is to do nothing. The third method involves heat and anti-inflammatory creams. Noreen is given two creams, a heat gel and an anti-inflammatory. The fourth method is massage. Leanne will have a full body massage. Method five is more exercise and stretching — Pria has to do more jogging tomorrow and a lot of stretching. The last method is cold water. Wayne is sent for a cold swim in the surf, which is a bracing 17 degrees Celsius, to simulate the ice bath that some sports players have. The results Delayed muscle ache peaks anywhere between 24 and 48 hours after exercise. At the halfway stage, Craig's taken his mission so seriously he's even slept in his compression skins. "Using these has definitely helped," he says. "It feels like the blood has had the chance to flow the entire time." "Twenty-four hours after, I still feel a little bit tight but probably not as bad as I usually do," says Wayne of his cold water therapy. "I've done some walking around that I couldn't help, so my legs aren't as sore as I thought they would be, but the rest is fairly tight," reports Will, who didn't have any treatment. Craig rates his pain level out of 10 as a five, as does Wayne. Will gives his pain a six. Noreen has been busy rubbing in an anti-inflammatory cream on one side of her body and a heat gel on the other. "Applying the heat cream makes me feel hot all over,"' she says. "In certain parts it gets quite stingy and quite uncomfortable. She rates her pain as a three. Pria's been doing some gentle cardio and step exercises and says her pain level is a five. "Initially when you get up you feel your muscles in bed going a little bit crazy but once you're up and get moving it gets the blood flowing, I think it's a good thing," she says. After being blissed out on the massage table, Leanne says, "I could feel the muscles being massaged and it's helped. I feel relieved." Leanne rates her pain as a five out of 10. The girls are reporting lower pain levels than the boys, which either means they're fitter or braver. Forty-eight hours later, the group do a series of exercises to see how much they hurt. Will was told to do absolutely nothing and he's the biggest sufferer in the group. His pain rating has increased from a six to an eight — the highest of the group. Craig's pain level increased from five after 24 hours to six after 48 but he felt it would have been an eight without the compression garments. Wayne's icy dip left him at five after 24 hours and he also went up to six. He too felt the pain would have been worse without his treatment. Noreen found no difference between the anti-inflammatory cream and the heat gel. Her pain rating stayed the same but was pretty low — three. Pria's gentle exercise definitely helped. She went from a five to a three after 48 hours. Leanne's massage was the measure that came out on top. Massage stretches the muscle and eases out toxins. Leanne's had her pain rating go from five to two. Conclusion In our test, massage was best, exercise and compression garments helped and so did the soothing creams. Resting was a definite no-no, with Will suffering the most. At the Australian Institute of Sport Dr Shona Halson agrees that doing something after a big workout is better than nothing. She's a big fan of cold water therapy for elite athletes but there are simpler methods for us mere mortals. "For the average person the most important things are nutrition and getting a good night's sleep, they're probably the two most important things," Dr Halson says. "The other thing they could do is go to the beach and do some walking through the water, especially if it's cold water; or go to the pool and do some kind of pool exercise as well." It seems the biggest message is that once we've got ourselves off the couch, we have to stay off it or we'll suffer a lot more pain for our gain.

Now that brings us back to the use of 'Electrolytes' and can one really replenish the balance of waht is actually the parts - if any - that may need replenishing. I know for a fact, that birds know a darn site more than me - and most vets, and aren't after a few bob - Just look how they recover. But will add the rest under the Electrodes heading.

I found the follow up Skull on the Alberta classic. Nice to get other views I believe. I often quote other topi of psters of other sites as I feel it can only be of a benefit. also as Karl wrote and quoting ... http://health.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=694283 Water is the main component of blood and cells. It fills most of the spaces around cells. To function normally, the body must keep the amount of water in these areas in balance and relatively constant. Too little water (dehydration) or too much water (overhydration) in the body can cause problems. The water in the body contains dissolved minerals called electrolytes. They include sodium, potassium, and calcium. The body must also keep levels of electrolytes in balance and relatively constant. The balance of electrolytes is closely tied to the balance of water in the body: If one changes, the other usually also changes. To maintain water and electrolyte balance, the body must replace water and electrolytes that are lost as the body performs its necessary functions. The body loses water and electrolytes primarily in urine, produced by the kidneys. Water and electrolytes are also lost in sweat, feces, and air that is breathed out. The body obtains water and electrolytes primarily from beverages and foods consumed. A healthy body can adjust the amount of water and electrolytes lost and consumed. Thirst, hunger, and the kidneys help with these adjustments. For example, a person who feels thirsty usually drinks more fluids. When a person becomes dehydrated, the brain releases a hormone called antidiuretic hormone. This hormone signals the kidneys to retain more water by making and excreting less urine. As the body ages, it changes in ways that make older people more likely to have problems with water and electrolyte balance. The older body contains less water. Water accounts for 60% of body weight in healthy young people but for only 45% in healthy older people. In older people, the kidneys are less able to regulate the excretion of water and to concentrate urine as needed. Therefore, more water may be lost in urine. Also, older people often do not drink enough water, especially on hot days, partly because they tend to be less thirsty. If older people have problems with walking, they may not be able to get themselves enough water to drink. Older people who have urinary incontinence may drink less because they are worried about getting to a bathroom in time. Many disorders, especially those that cause fever, vomiting, or diarrhea, can result in problems with water and electrolyte balance. These disorders may be short-lived (for example, pneumonia) or chronic (for example, kidney failure). Many drugs, especially diuretics, can also cause problems.