Canker

[peter pandy]

Looking at a microscopic photo of Canker and it appears like an extra terestial bug !! so is it a virus or bacteria ?. I have a Micron light Microcope and have never picked them out but if the photo was the result of an Millimicron Electron Microscope then it would be classed as a virus. Now if its Bacteria it can be killed by Antibiotics and if its a virus it can only be destroyed by the Immune System. WHAT is your views on this. I normally give 100 mlg Metronidazole once on weaning and never dose again which has been successful in the past however the result of a swab test has came back Extremely high canker count on what I believe was a bird brought in for stock purposes and her youngster had to be disposed off with Canker. Could she be a carrier and how can you tell unless through another test being carried out.

[just ask me]

how long is the bird in your loft are the rest not infected as i asume there all drinking from the same drinker

[Guest stb-]

Looking at a microscopic photo of Canker and it appears like an extra terestial bug !! so is it a virus or bacteria ?. I have a Micron light Microcope and have never picked them out but if the photo was the result of an Millimicron Electron Microscope then it would be classed as a virus. Now if its Bacteria it can be killed by Antibiotics and if its a virus it can only be destroyed by the Immune System. WHAT is your views on this. I normally give 100 mlg Metronidazole once on weaning and never dose again which has been successful in the past however the result of a swab test has came back Extremely high canker count on what I believe was a bird brought in for stock purposes and her youngster had to be disposed off with Canker. Could she be a carrier and how can you tell unless through another test being carried out.

microorganisms such as bacteria, viruses, fungi and protozoa. canker is a protozoa which is neither bacterial or fungal .

[peter pandy]

how long is the bird in your loft are the rest not infected as i asume there all drinking from the same drinker

She was a 2013 Late Bred and purchased Jan 2014 with both her Parents 600 mile winners. The birds are in magnificent condition and dont believe any others are affected although a further test will take place to confirm at the end of March.

[peter pandy]

microorganisms such as bacteria, viruses, fungi and protozoa. canker is a protozoa which is neither bacterial or fungal .

 

So what would kill off a Protozea Alex ?.

[just ask me]

dr chambers wrote a brillant arctile on canker ill try find it for ya

[Guest stb-]

So what would kill off a Protozea Alex ?.

 

MedPet Emtryl Soluble (For the treatment of Canker in pigeons)could cause fertilty issues for 10 to 14 days after use but does great job

[just ask me]

MedPet Emtryl Soluble (For the treatment of Canker in pigeons)could cause fertilty issues for 10 to 14 days after use but does great job

 

 

the trick is to use a different drug each each time

 

peter a bit of a long read this but i found it intresting lol

 

 

Canker: Strains of the Causative Organism

by Gordon A Chalmers, DVM, Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada.

 

 

 

An article that I read recently asked if there was a new strain of canker, and it reminded me that there are indeed strains of the canker-causing organism. Canker is the name of the disease caused by the tiny parasite called Trichomonas gallinae. It occurred to me then that, as a reply to the question asked by this article, I might present some background information on strains of Trichomonas gallinae, and their importance to all of us. I have drawn the information in this article from a number of important old and some fairly current scientific papers selected from my files. Incidentally, in the following material, when I refer to the canker organism, I will likely use the terms "Trichomonas gallinae, T. gallinae (the latter is simply a shortened form of the full scientific name), trichomonad, trichomonas and canker organisms" interchangeably -- all mean the same thing.

 

Infection by this organism was first identified in Europe in 1878 by a researcher named Rivolta. Many years later in the USA, a scientist named Robert Stabler, conducting research in the state of Colorado, pioneered extensive work on the organism in pigeons -- in fact in 1938, he gave the organism its scientific name, Trichomonas gallinae.

 

In a 1948 publication on the subject, he noted that not all pigeons that harbour the organism die of the infection, or even have internal changes to indicate the presence of this organism. As well, he found that youngsters from some parents in a loft nearly always died of canker in a few days or weeks after hatching, whereas certain other parents, although infected, raised healthy youngsters indefinitely. Obviously these facts gave rise to the idea that there were strains with differing abilities to cause disease, a suggestion that had also been proposed by other scientists who had worked on canker in pigeons.

 

To test this idea, Dr Stabler then set up an experiment in which he used canker organisms that he arbitrarily designated as "strains" (see explanation in the next paragraph), from five different sources: Strain 1 from an infected wild youngster, Strain 2 from a healthy adult King, Strain 3 from a healthy adult Carneaux, Strain 4 from an adult racing pigeon that had a history of transmitting lethal canker to his youngsters and to at least three successive hens, and Strain 5 from the mouth of a peregrine falcon that had died with severe canker of the mouth. (Note that canker caused by T. gallinae occurs in birds of prey in which it is called "frounce". Broadly related organisms in this group also cause infections, variously, in the reproductive systems of humans, cattle, and sheep, and in the digestive tracts of domestic chickens and turkeys. I have also seen it in devastating outbreak form in small aviary finches in which the disease very much resembled that seen in the oral cavity of young pigeons.)

 

Dr Stabler defined "strain" as the particular canker organisms removed from the mouth of an individual bird, even though he recognized the possibility that any given bird might harbour more than one strain. The results he obtained seemed to justify the use of the organisms from a particular bird as "a strain", at least in terms of their ability to cause disease. He maintained the five individual strains mentioned previously by inoculating them by eyedropper into the mouths of clean pigeons, and took great care to be sure that the different strains weren't accidentally mixed. The clean pigeons he infected with these five strains came from his own loft of racing pigeons that he knew were free of canker-causing organisms.

 

In the first experiment, he used 25 of his own young birds, aged 6 weeks, 5 1/2 weeks, 5 1/2 months, 7 months, and 9 months, with five birds in each group. One bird in each age group was inoculated by mouth with Strain 1, one in each group received Strain 2, and so on. Results showed that the Strains 1, 4, and 5 caused severe signs of disease that ended in the death of all except two youngsters, a 7 and a 9-month-old bird infected with the Strain 4. These two birds had severe canker for over a week, but they recovered. Strains 2 and 3 either didn't produce signs of disease in the youngsters they infected, or the infection was very slight and lasted only 2-4 days.

 

In follow-up work, Dr Stabler showed that Strain 1 (which became known in trichomonad circles as his famous "Jones' Barn" strain) obtained from the wild youngster with canker, was the most deadly of the five strains, killing 12 of 13 birds inoculated with it in an average of 10.6 days. Over all, he was able to show that, of 119 pigeons infected successively with this potent strain, 114 (95.8%) died in 4 to 18 days. In later work, he showed that Strain 1 was deadly even if only one organism was placed in the mouths of susceptible pigeons. Obviously, this single organism multiplied rapidly into the thousands or more to cause serious illness.

 

These results showed that there was a marked difference in the ability of these five different strains of T. gallinae to cause disease in pigeons. These strains varied from those that caused little or no disease to those that caused high losses. Obviously, there were also strains that were intermediate in their ability to cause canker, since they were able to cause serious illness from which most birds eventually recovered.

 

In important later studies, Dr Stabler was able to show that mild strains of the canker organism were able to protect birds against more deadly strains, a finding that continues to have practical application today. To confirm these results, he first gave eight of his own trichomonas-free youngsters the relatively potent Strain 5 obtained from the peregrine falcon. All developed severe canker of the mouth, six birds recovered and two died. Fifty-four days after the initial infection with Strain 5, the six survivors were given the very deadly Strain 1. None of them developed evidence of disease during the following month. These six birds were then killed and examined at post mortem. There was evidence of scarring of the liver of three birds, findings that suggested infection from the previous dose of organisms. The other three birds were almost completely free of signs of infection. The only significant finding in these birds was the loss of the palatal fringe on the roof of the mouth. (Dr Stabler believed that, in every case examined, this change was highly characteristic of evidence that the canker organism was the cause.)

 

He then repeated this experiment with eight more clean youngsters that were first given the mild Strain 3 from the adult Carneaux. Only two youngsters developed a mild form of the disease. About a month later, all eight birds were given the deadly Strain 1. In the next three weeks, only two of the eight birds developed signs of canker. One had a mild form of the disease, and the other had a severe form from which it eventually recovered.

 

Post mortem examinations of these eight birds determined that tissues of seven birds were completely normal, and that the bird that developed severe canker had severe changes of canker in the liver. At the same time, as a control, Dr Stabler inoculated 13 youngsters from his own loft of trichomonas-free birds with deadly Strain 1; 12 of the 13 birds died. Thus, these experiments demonstrated that infection by a mild strain of T. gallinae conferred protection against a more deadly strain of the organism. However, the duration of that immunity wasn't determined at that time.

 

During the spring, summer and fall of 1950, there was a major outbreak of canker in wild mourning doves across much of the southern USA, with the greatest losses apparently in the state of Alabama where it was estimated that deaths might well run into the thousands in that state. Dr Stabler obtained strains of trichomonads from several sources of these doves to see if the organisms from these doves could cause illness in pigeons. He inoculated 50,000-100,000 organisms from different doves, into each of five pigeons from his clean colony. For comparison, he inoculated only 3,000-10,000 organisms of his deadly Jones' Barn strain into another five clean pigeons, all of which subsequently died of canker of the liver. The most deadly of the strains from the doves came from a bird collected in Alabama, and like the Jones' barn strain, this one proved to be equally deadly, killing all but one of the pigeons inoculated with it. The other four strains obtained from the doves proved to be relatively mild when inoculated into pigeons, as most of these pigeons survived the infection.

 

The next question to resolve was this: would pigeons that survived the infections with mild strains obtained from doves, be able to withstand infection by the deadly Jones' barn strain? To test this idea, Dr Stabler inoculated all of these survivors with the Jones' barn strain. The result was that all birds inoculated with the Jones' barn strain survived, findings that indicated good protection following infection with strains from the doves. Did the fact that these birds survived mean that 1) the strains derived from doves had killed off the deadly Jones' barn strain, or 2) was the Jones' barn strain still present in these surviving birds, and if so, was it now altered so that it was now a mild strain, or 3) was the Jones' barn strain as powerful as ever for clean birds, but unable to cause illness in protected birds??

 

To test these ideas, Dr Stabler collected canker organisms from birds that had a combination of a mild strain and the deadly Jones' barn strain, and inoculated these organisms into clean pigeons. The results were variable, as some of the newly infected clean birds had only mild changes of canker, whereas other birds either died of severe canker, or almost died. These results indicated that the deadly Jones' barn strain continued to be present, and equally important, was as potent as ever. Over all, of 13 birds infected, six died outright, one barely survived, and six had mild cases of canker. Incidentally, Dr Stabler reported that the Jones' barn strain typically caused the most severe disease in the liver of infected birds, whereas milder strains

 

produced only oral infections.

 

Although the procedure isn't too practical for us as pigeon fanciers, Dr Richard Kocan, working in the USA, found that blood plasma from pigeons infected with even a mild strain of T. gallinae could protect other pigeons infected with a deadly strain of the organism. Much more practically, Dr Kocan was also able to demonstrate that previously infected pigeons that had been treated with the formerly used anti-canker drug Enheptin, were free of the organism for as long as 16 months, yet remained immune to infection when they were inoculated with deadly strains. On this point, some of his other work showed that 172 of 313 wild pigeons and 54 of 66 mourning doves (all of the mourning doves captured were completely free of the canker organism) -- all trapped in his area, were resistant to the deadly Jones' barn strain. His conclusions: recovery from an infection with T. gallinae, even when the birds eventually completely eliminate the organism from their systems, results in long-term immunity to this parasite -- a fact that is of great importance to us as pigeon fanciers, one that we can use to advantage, especially in these days of apparent resistance by this organism to some of our modern, previously useful drugs.

 

The subject of drug resistance by the canker organism to modern drugs is also of major current importance to us. Almost 10 years ago, in 1990, Drs Lumeij and Zwijnenberg of Utrecht University, Holland, demonstrated the fact that canker organisms recovered from a large flock of pigeons in that country, were uniformly resistant to all of our commonly used modern drugs -- Emtryl, Ridzol, Spartrix and Flagyl. On the basis of that information, it seems likely that canker organisms in many other untested flocks of pigeons in Holland and indeed throughout Europe, and other countries, could have been similarly resistant at that time, likely, as these researchers pointed out, because of the common practice among fanciers, of continually under-dosing birds with these drugs.

 

On the subject of under-dosing, especially with Emtryl, I find in my travels in the USA and Canada, that the dosage of the 40% water-soluble Emtryl, as

 

recommended by several pigeon supply houses in North America is far below that recommended for pigeons by the producer of the drug. (At one time, this company sold small 3-gram packets of Emtryl, the exact dosage for one Imperial gallon - 4.55 litres). The fact that Emtryl is being recommended today at much lower dosages could certainly contribute to the problem of drug resistance mentioned in the previous paragraph, and may be a developing problem with major far-reaching consequences for us. I would remind fanciers that the correct dosage of Emtryl for pigeons, as recommended by the company, is 3 grams (or one level teaspoon) per imperial gallon (4.55 litres) of drinking water for 5-7 days. For the smaller US gallon (4 litres), this is about 3/4 teaspoon per gallon for the same treatment period.

 

To avoid the problems of toxicity if birds drink excessive amounts of water especially during hot weather, try an Australian method that I know works well. Make up the correct dosage of Emtryl and place it in front of the birds at, say, the evening feeding for a couple of hours or so. After this time, throw out the medicated water and replace it with fresh water until the next evening. Repeat the correct dosage for a couple of hours or so each evening for a total of 5-7 days. This method insures firstly, that birds receive the correct therapeutic dose each day for the treatment period, and secondly, that problems with toxicity can be largely avoided. It is important not to treat with Emtryl or other drugs of the same family during the pairing up period, because there is some suggestion that the drug can interfere with fertility. It is also a good idea to change drugs each time you feel birds need to be treated, say, Emtryl for one 5-7 day treatment period, and another appropriate for the next one, etc., all at the correct dosage.

 

On the subject of canker and treatments, some fanciers subscribe to the idea that if it's not broken, don't fix it. Dr Colin Walker, the Australian veterinarian who has written many excellent articles for racing pigeon magazines, seems to accept this idea. In one of his books, he states that drugs alone will never control a canker problem. He feels that it is important to allow developing youngsters enough exposure to the organism that they can develop natural resistance -- my idea for many years as well, based on the work of Dr Stabler.

 

Dr Walker expands on this idea by stating that if birds in the stock loft (and presumably their youngsters) did not develop canker the previous year, no treatment is needed this year. However, if canker did occur in stock birds and their youngsters last year, birds should be treated this year with a suitable drug prior to mating, and for two days every week after that. Further, he suggests co-ordinating these two-day treatments with the hatching period when trichomonad shedding is the highest. If the occasional youngster still develops canker, he recommends treating the parents and both youngsters in the nest with Spartrix or Flagyl for three days. (Incidentally, some veterinary writers in the USA have some legitimate concerns about short periods of treatment because of the risks of resistance by the canker organism to these drugs.) Dr walker also recommends avoiding the treatment of breeding pairs whose

 

youngsters don't develop canker, so that there is no interference in the development of natural resistance, an idea that makes a great deal of sense to me.

 

Speaking of natural resistance, I recall that when I worked in New Zealand during the early 1980s, a medical doctor there raced pigeons, but apparently didn't treat his birds for any disease. Instead he preferred to rely on the development of natural resistance to any virus, bacteria or parasite his birds might encounter.

 

For the past several years, I haven't used preventive canker treatments on any of my old or young birds, and touch wood(!), so far there hasn't been a detectable problem. It is probable that the natural resistance developed in these birds by repeated exposure to the strains of canker organisms that very likely reside in my birds has (to date) been holding the disease at bay. Based on information from Dr David Marx, one of the top pigeon veterinarians in the USA, I have also been examining the mouths of my birds during the racing season for evidence of reddening and excess stringy mucus, findings that could suggest multiplication of canker organisms and increased irritation of the oral cavity during this stressful time. So far, on the basis of finding clean, pink throats, I haven't felt a need to treat preventively during the racing season, although it is possible that deeper areas such as the crop, which I didn't examine, may have been affected. I acknowledge the possibility, however, that if I had treated periodically for canker in spite of these normal findings, some racing performances might have improved. As far as canker is concerned, the idea "if it's not broken, don't fix it" seems to be working in my loft. If things change for the worst, I am ready to treat if I have to.

 

I hope that this look at the historical background of strains may stimulate thought on this subject among fanciers. As the risk of drug resistance by canker organisms (and other agents as well) increases steadily, I hope that fanciers may be better able to assess the facts surrounding natural immunity, and to use these facts to their advantage by recognizing the biological benefits of using any mild strains of canker organisms that reside in their birds as a major defence against deadly strains. In saying this, I also recognize the need to treat birds when or if the disease occurs. A combination of judicious treatment when necessary, plus strategies to allow for the development of natural resistance may well be the best approach. I also hope that information on the correct dosage of Emtryl -- and by extension, other drugs as well -- may help to reverse the trend of vastly underdosing our birds with these products.

 

Australia is fortunate to have veterinary specialists such as Drs Walker and Marshall, to name two individuals, for practical guidance on these subjects.

[Guest stb-]

the trick is to use a different drug each each time

 

 

correct best to change any treatment around all the time

[stan the man]

Looking at a microscopic photo of Canker and it appears like an extra terestial bug !! so is it a virus or bacteria ?. I have a Micron light Microcope and have never picked them out but if the photo was the result of an Millimicron Electron Microscope then it would be classed as a virus. Now if its Bacteria it can be killed by Antibiotics and if its a virus it can only be destroyed by the Immune System. WHAT is your views on this. I normally give 100 mlg Metronidazole once on weaning and never dose again which has been successful in the past however the result of a swab test has came back Extremely high canker count on what I believe was a bird brought in for stock purposes and her youngster had to be disposed off with Canker. Could she be a carrier and how can you tell unless through another test being carried out.

 

hi mate. I had the same problem april 18.04.2014. where I found traces of canker. in my young birds,. after losing 2 to canker. I decided to get the tests done with the SAS consulting veterinary sevices in inverness. I gave them 1 live young bird 3 test tubes of sh**. and 2 eggs. only because I wonted a full report on any thing a pigeon could catch. which I thought I had young bird sickness. on 07.05.2014 the report came back. but to my amazement, the only thing that my birds had was cronic case of canker,. what they gave me for the birds was METRONIDAZOLE TABS 500 MG . and within 5 to 7 days my god what a diff,ce in the birds. and by this I mean the young birds where dying on there feet at the time. within that week they where sitting. and looking like pictures. but the best off it all I treated every month with hakers tabs and radzole. and I done this for years. and I still end up with a bad case of canker,. hope this helps. sorry for the spelling. lol

[peter pandy]

I have had a fruitful discussion on Canker with a team member at Belgica De Weerdt to-day and been made more knowledgable regarding this problem. I have kept pigeons for nearly 60 years and to be perfectly honest we fanciers are to a certain extent being taken for mugs when it comes to problems and cures by the Pharmaceuticals and Vets with them knowing we are lacking in knowledge and their desire to persuade us to purchase the products they produce on their say so a cure which they know we cannot disprove. This statement is definately not directed at Belgica De Weerdt as they have been perfectly straight up with the answers given me, to which I am extremely grateful.

First of all on this post I asked what killed Canker and the usual answer was Emtryl or metrodinozal, STB said Canker is a protozea and he is correct. I also mentioned that Bacteria can be killed with Antibiotics but Viruses cannot, so what is the answer ???. It was all answered so easily that I could hardly believe what I was hearing and the advice given...Bacteria, Virus's, Canker "Protozea", Fungi, Yeast, Coccidiocis, Salmonella, I could go on and on BUT one natural situation kills them all and that is THE IMMUNITY SYSTEM within the bird..Probiotics "Yoghurt" etc on the feed does it all and see the money you are going to save.

P.M. me with cheques, Postal Orders, Cash will be gratefully recieved.

[soupie]

Probably correct to an extent, but the issue would be how long the immunity system would take to elimiate the problem and the damage caused to the bird whilst this happens, and i would hazard a guess that a great number of birds would die before this happened.

For instance I'm sure some bacterial infections would be dealt with in humans by their natural immune system, but at what cost to the majority of people.

 

soupie

[peter pandy]

Probably correct to an extent, but the issue would be how long the immunity system would take to elimiate the problem and the damage caused to the bird whilst this happens, and i would hazard a guess that a great number of birds would die before this happened.

For instance I'm sure some bacterial infections would be dealt with in humans by their natural immune system, but at what cost to the majority of people.

 

soupie

 

You would build the Immune System up and continue to feed it with Prebiotics It can also be kicked in. After all if you have no immune system you probably wont have a live pigeon.

[Guest big50cal]

So what would kill off a Protozea Alex ?.

Buckfast wine

[andy Burgess]

I have had a fruitful discussion on Canker with a team member at Belgica De Weerdt to-day and been made more knowledgable regarding this problem. I have kept pigeons for nearly 60 years and to be perfectly honest we fanciers are to a certain extent being taken for mugs when it comes to problems and cures by the Pharmaceuticals and Vets with them knowing we are lacking in knowledge and their desire to persuade us to purchase the products they produce on their say so a cure which they know we cannot disprove. This statement is definately not directed at Belgica De Weerdt as they have been perfectly straight up with the answers given me, to which I am extremely grateful.

First of all on this post I asked what killed Canker and the usual answer was Emtryl or metrodinozal, STB said Canker is a protozea and he is correct. I also mentioned that Bacteria can be killed with Antibiotics but Viruses cannot, so what is the answer ???. It was all answered so easily that I could hardly believe what I was hearing and the advice given...Bacteria, Virus's, Canker "Protozea", Fungi, Yeast, Coccidiocis, Salmonella, I could go on and on BUT one natural situation kills them all and that is THE IMMUNITY SYSTEM within the bird..Probiotics "Yoghurt" etc on the feed does it all and see the money you are going to save.

P.M. me with cheques, Postal Orders, Cash will be gratefully recieved.

 

Peter , theres no cheque in the post , yet i do thank you for sharing the information you got today .

can i ask you , how was Canker treated "before" ? by those fanciers who didnt know of medical applications , or werent aware of cures or treatments ? i realise this may be before your time , yet you would be more aware than me for sure.

[peter pandy]

Peter , theres no cheque in the post , yet i do thank you for sharing the information you got today .

can i ask you , how was Canker treated "before" ? by those fanciers who didnt know of medical applications , or werent aware of cures or treatments ? i realise this may be before your time , yet you would be more aware than me for sure.

Emtryl was all we were ever given back in the 50's Andy and One eye cold was also rife with Quack cures and if memory serves me correctly the only other problem was fielding poisoning which covered every ailment. We never had any of to-days problems because we knew no better.

[just ask me]

like everything else there is a right time for every treatment the misuse of antibitoicts is so wrong

[William Reid]

Emtryl was all we were ever given back in the 50's Andy and One eye cold was also rife with Quack cures and if memory serves me correctly the only other problem was fielding poisoning which covered every ailment. We never had any of to-days problems because we knew no better.

Auramycin used to be the cure for everything Birds with one eye cold got a pinch put on the eye and would be dry the next morning

[peter pandy]

like everything else there is a right time for every treatment the misuse of antibitoicts is so wrong

Are you aware J.A.M. that 3in1-4in1 medication is probably the worst thing you can give them due to the antis in the tub being off a weaker strength and can make your birds more susceptable to the disease you believe you are treating for but killing off the gut Flora.

[just ask me]

Are you aware J.A.M. that 3in1-4in1 medication is probably the worst thing you can give them due to the antis in the tub being off a weaker strength and can make your birds more susceptable to the disease you believe you are treating for but killing off the gut Flora.

 

 

i dont treat like that i give the antbiotic needed when its needed dont like blanket treatment

 

 

as i said right drug at the right time you should not have too many problems

[peter pandy]

Auramycin used to be the cure for everything Birds with one eye cold got a pinch put on the eye and would be dry the next morning

It was in the mid 60s before we could get our mitts on aureomycin LOL

[andy Burgess]

Emtryl was all we were ever given back in the 50's Andy and One eye cold was also rife with Quack cures and if memory serves me correctly the only other problem was fielding poisoning which covered every ailment. We never had any of to-days problems because we knew no better.

 

thanks for the reply Peter . any idea "pre- Emtryl" days ??

 

Auramycin used to be the cure for everything Birds with one eye cold got a pinch put on the eye and would be dry the next morning

 

 

or you Billy ? any idea before these treatments ??

[R.A.M.C.63]

I have had a fruitful discussion on Canker with a team member at Belgica De Weerdt to-day and been made more knowledgable regarding this problem. I have kept pigeons for nearly 60 years and to be perfectly honest we fanciers are to a certain extent being taken for mugs when it comes to problems and cures by the Pharmaceuticals and Vets with them knowing we are lacking in knowledge and their desire to persuade us to purchase the products they produce on their say so a cure which they know we cannot disprove. This statement is definately not directed at Belgica De Weerdt as they have been perfectly straight up with the answers given me, to which I am extremely grateful.

First of all on this post I asked what killed Canker and the usual answer was Emtryl or metrodinozal, STB said Canker is a protozea and he is correct. I also mentioned that Bacteria can be killed with Antibiotics but Viruses cannot, so what is the answer ???. It was all answered so easily that I could hardly believe what I was hearing and the advice given...Bacteria, Virus's, Canker "Protozea", Fungi, Yeast, Coccidiocis, Salmonella, I could go on and on BUT one natural situation kills them all and that is THE IMMUNITY SYSTEM within the bird..Probiotics "Yoghurt" etc on the feed does it all and see the money you are going to save.

P.M. me with cheques, Postal Orders, Cash will be gratefully recieved.

 

Got To Agree Peter

[peter pandy]

Andy whit blinkin age dae ye think we are.

[just ask me]

Andy whit blinkin age dae ye think we are.

 

 

billy has been around a good while :emoticon-0136-giggle: