ETS

[Mike Lycett]

Thank you for your welcome & timely intervention Webmaster.

 

I hope we can discuss the issue without the personal attacks

 

DD - I'll reply to your point when I have a bit more time.  I'm leaving for work now & its not a 2 sentence reply unfortunately

 

Mike

[dandydoo]

OK speak later

[T_T]

I am a voter for the NO brigade.

I am not against change, It's just a thrill for me to get involved with my pigeons and to physically time them in whilst I can.

I do of course realise there are some fanciers that are not as fortunate as me in being able to do that, such as our disabled friends and those that maybe have to work on a race day.  We each of us, have our reasons for Yes or No.  Why can't those reasons be accepted without cutting each others throats.!!  When the time comes to vote, we shall no doubt all put our cross in the box of our choice.

What will be, will be.  .

Would the rings for the use with the ETS system be more expensive than the rings we use now.?  I am thinking along the lines of a heavy dent in the pocket if we have any sort of heavy losses or smashes.

[Guest]

I will not post on this issue again util Mr. Lycett posts his "valid" reasons why ETS should not be used.

 

Then I reserve the right to counter post as my postings on electronic timing are based on the fact that I have used it since 2000 and are substansiated by hard cold fact and experience, not conjecture and heresay

[ribble]

short races=NO,long(two day races)=YES.........

[Mike Lycett]

DD – Sorry for the delay.  Been busy and I’m off out in a bit so I won’t be online much tonight.

 

Before we start on the ETS can I just make one thing clear. In England we do not have our heads in the sand on this issue. It’s been debated in both the RP and BHW for years now and has had a complete and utter airing. People either see things one way or the other. There is no fundamental right or wrong answer. We have our opinions whether we are for or against.

 

I wonder how many people actually understand the Club/Region/.Council structure within the RPRA. It is this body that has just kicked the ETS in to touch in the UK and therefore we need to understand how it works

 

1. Each and every single club within the RPRA has the right to elect a delegate from its local club to go and vote at its Region “for” or “against” on any matter. That delegate has one vote  - irrespective of the size of club. The delegate votes how his club has mandated him to vote – not how he/she wants to vote personally.

 

2. We are members of the West Midlands Region – the biggest in the UK. For arguments sake, let’s say that the West Midlands have 100 clubs within its fold. That’s 100 votes representing each and every fancier within that Region. For arguments sake, let’s say they vote on the ETS and 80 Clubs say “no” and 20 clubs say “yes”. The West Midlands Region then goes forward and votes “no” on the issue at Council.

 

3. The issue (ETS) then gets discussed at Council whereby it receives the mandate from each and every Region. Every Region has followed the procedure in Step 2. Therefore, each and every fancier from each and every club within the UK has effectively had their say.  It cannot be fairer!   It can’t can it?  What other way is there that’s fairer than that??

 

 

Now, at the last Council meeting the ETS was put to the vote and it got slaughtered. Therefore, it is accurate to say that the members of the RPRA (45,000 people) overwhelmingly are not in favour of the ETS system.

 

If you personally are in the RPRA, and want ETS, but your Club didn’t use its delegation, then I’m afraid that is not my problem – it is yours and your local Club’s problem. If I was passionate about an issue I’d make sure my vote counted on the issue

 

For me, for tonight, I’m off.

 

When I return though, can someone answer me this?   Do you have to have a stall trap / sputnik etc fitted to use this device or can you use it still trapping through “open door”?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Guest]

Sorry Mike, but still no logical explanation why you are so vehemently opposed to ETS.

 

One cannot be surprised at the Vote in The West Midlands when a prominent flyer is condemming ETS without a good working knowledge or experience of the system.

 

and yes you can still trap in through open door but I suppose you already know that with your knowledge of the system

 

[Mike Lycett]

Back for a sec..

 

Hyacinth (Linda)...   Yes, I know - I haven't started on that bit yet.    As for me condeming ETS it was each and every Region that voted against it!   Unfortunately, I'm not THAT powerful and persuasive!!!   If only I were!!!    ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Guest]

Wouldn't it be democratic on such a big issue to issue a paper vote to all members

[peterpau]

It's a bit rich to suggest the RPRA have voted plum against ETS. The members of my club didn't get a chance to vote. I'd like to know which comes home last, after all they cost as much to feed as those that are home first.

          BRING BACK THE GROAT

[Blue Chequer]

I have stopped using the UpNorthCombine site because of postings on this subject (and others) always someone at each others throats.  Call me old fashioned if you want but if Hyacinth in the USA want's to time pigeons whilst she is sat in the boozer let her get on with it, if someone want's to know which bird was last from a trainer let them install this system for training.  I don't think I will see it getting accepted by the NEHU but the way racing is going I am headed towards the Fancy Pigeons right now.  Sorry Hyacinth you probably watch your birds home but this wouldn't apply to a lot of so called fanciers in the U.K.

[Guest]

Blue chequer,

 

No I don't sit in the Freaking Boozer, I have more respect for my birds than that and I think your off the wall remark demands an apology

[Blue Chequer]

I think if you read my posting correctly I acknowledge that you don't sit in the Freaking Boozer, but point out that is what will happen in the U.K.  Get off your high horse.

[Guest]

Call me old fashioned if you want but if Hyacinth in the USA want's to time pigeons whilst she is sat in the boozer l  Sorry Hyacinth you probably watch your birds home but this wouldn't apply to a lot of so called fanciers in the U.K.

 

It was you my dear friend who put me on my high horse to start with, since I started using electronic timing in 2000 I HAVE NEVER MISSED BEING AT THE loft when the races come in, but I'll willingly admit that on the longer races I take a 6 pack with me

[TheSaddler]

Some questions..

 

I race in three clubs and send 10 birds to each club. Most Saturday's I have all ten birds from a club before half the members have a pigeon.

 

With manual clocks I tend to only ever clock three birds (even if I have four together) since I think it's bad if one person takes all four prizes (just my opinion on club racing - each to there own on this). With ETS I could have ten birds on the sheet before some have a pigeon.

 

Now the questions:-

 

1. Can you use the same ETS system at three clubs? I presume this is a yes..

2. I race to three sections, are the sensors expensive and more importantly reliable - I've heard of birds not activating the sensors - also i've heard it's more unreliable with an open door?

3. Can you turn the ETS off for one club while waiting for birds from another club - I would not want all my birds recorded?

 

For members using ETS - Do new starters get dicouraged when the see that 90% of the birds have returned before they have one?

[Guest]

I can't answer the question about racing in three clubs as they clubs here are so spaced out it's only viable to race with one.

 

I would think it likely that you can,  provided the club have the corresponding base units to enter the birds.

 

As for three sensors, the appropriate clock manufacturers will display the prices of sensors on the web pages.it would be usless to quote the dollar prices we pay here. as for the sensors being reliable, Benzing had some problems in the early days with ill fitting connections, which I believe has now been rectified.  During my time racing with ETS I have only ever failed to register one bird.

 

The theory of only timing three birds in can often give result in as much as the whole returns are not shown , i.e. your bird may be 2nd in the club but was it the second bird home, I know some flyers in the UK only time their first bird in especially if it is the pooler, so that flyer could have had another half dozen birds before you.

 

Can't really comment on open door, I know its possible, again we don't use it we use chute traps.

 

No you can't stop your clock, all birds timed in will be entered on the race sheet.

 

To overcome the problem with new starters, the American Union have a Sportsman Category that is to say, people who are new starters and people who have not won more than two races. The fuill race sheet is printed out as The Open Race then a further race sheet is printer out extracted from the main sheet to show the positions in the Sportsman's section.  Race cards and trophies are awarded in this category as well as the Open.

 

I would add one word of caution when buying the chip rings, it is wise to buy the rings that are sold by the manufacturer of your particular clock.  There are ones on the market that are advertised as universal, we have had nothing but problems with these, both by failing to register on return from a race or not registering in the club units at basketing.

 

 

 

[jimmy white]

i am disabled ",dont race pigeons now" but had my fair share of winning, i remember running to the chemist shop, with rubber ring,differant days

  now , but it hs made me aware of the other disabled fanciers.iunderstood there is a law comming out in sep, covering the disabled  

disrimination act, would we not have to abide by the law???

[Guest]

Interesting point Jimmy.

 

I've had two or three beginners on the programme that were disabled and would not have been able to race had it not been for ETS

[MsPigeon]

I don't understand why ETS is so controversial! And I don't understand why people can't make up their OWN mind. If they want to use ETS they should be able to! That does not mean that those who do not want to use have to! You can have both!

I use Unikon and have for a couple years, its wonderful!

TheSaddler, with Unikon you could clock birds for three clubs, but as Hyacinth said each club would have to have the Unikon club unit and software. With Unikon your race secretary has the option to limit the # of birds that will count in the race but it would be in the order they are clocked, e.g. your first three, not your choice and of course only if your club has a clocking limit rule for everyone. My Unikon has been VERY reliable, even clocking in two at exactly the same time. Open door has had no effect on clocking, the same bird can go in and out but it is only clocked in the first time.

Yours in the sport.

Carol

[Guest]

Wow Carol, I didn't know you could limit the number of birds that will count on the race sheet, thanks for sharing.

 

I received your tape today, thanks so very much

[Mike Lycett]

PeterPau - Every Club had the option. If your Club diidn't then I'd discuss it with either your Club Sec. or Region Sec.

Paper balloting all members?  I'm sure it would be viable in the ideal world - but that comes at a cost & the current process encompasses all fanciers without the cost so there's nothing wrong with the procdess - and "Yes" - it is fair to say that it got slaughtered.

 

Hyacinth...  Before I pick up on points made by Saddler, can you please explain to me the use of ETS when you only use an open door trapping system please?

 

Mike

[peterpau]

I don't understand all the fuss either Carol, and what you say is very interesting. But surely the point is you gotta get the birds first. In my club ETS would not have changed the result once. Only time it may have made a difference was when I was at work.

[dandydoo]

Mike dont think you answered my question.. what you have given is an outline structure of the system of governance of the RPRA and the way members voted. I specifically aked why YOU did want to see it s introduction. Perhaps I should read into your reply that you are accepting the majority decision ???. I agree there is no fundemental right or wrong ...but as I outlined in previous post it should be a matter of choice and fairness

I think you are having a bit of a larf about being fairer .... So you could have 4 Clubs with 10 memebers each with a No vote thus 4 No votes as opposed to a Club with 50 members with 1 Yes vote ....hardly fair and democratic ( perhaps you just want a good old rip on the Board) This kicks the 45,000 argument into touch too.

 

In Scotland it would seem to be a bit  more member led in that the Clubs do have more autonomy.

You and your Clubs problem ...I am less inclined on the "I am alright Jack philosophy" and take a bigger picture view as to what is the best way forward for the sport in these very difficult times ...around 7% of Fanciers leaving the sport annually.

You come across as passionate about the issue from you posts so why is it that YOU are personally against it.

RPRA rules and regulations ...I wonder how many of the Scottish members of the RPRA follow the rules such as three way testing of clocks, accredited convoyer and how many members leave their clock on the premises for the season. My point rules, procedures can always be ignored or gotton round

DD

 

[Mike Lycett]

DD - I haven't started on my points yet.  It'll be obvious when I do.  For now, I wanted to be clear on what process was in place that rejected the ETS - jyst in case some people didn't know the process.

 

Next up, all I'm asking for at the moment is a thorough explanation of how the ETS system works on an Open Door trapping system considering this is the way that the overwhelming majority ofv fanciers in the UK trap their birds.

 

I won't move on until I'm clear on the trapping system  / Open door / ETS process

 

Mike

[Mike Lycett]

Rose

 

Now we're beginning to get to the crux of one odf the issues!

 

Mike