Eye Sign

[Guest Paul Fairweather]

Eye sign do you think it's of use?

Cheers,

Paul Fairweather

[tiger]

Eye sign do you think it's of use?

Cheers,

Paul Fairweather

yes its helps if they got two of them

[philg50]

Just another idea, do i believe dont know ! i do look for all signs in the eye as i did read up on it some swear by it at the end of the day its your decision .

[Guest Owen]

It is a load of rubbish. The most important way to select pigeons is to sit down and note each bird's results. There are plenty of short cuts to selecting pigeons but the only reliable one is racing form and even that can be misleading in the early generations. If you select according to form continually better birds will come with increasing regularity.

It is idiots that breed from everything in the loft regardless of what the birds have performed like that gives us the stray problem. Theories are a waste of time and money and paper pedigrees for birds that are bred from prisoner stock are just as bad. If you want to buy winning genes why not buy proven birds with their prize cards from a Sale.

[Lennut Tar]

It is a load of rubbish. The most important way to select pigeons is to sit down and note each bird's results. There are plenty of short cuts to selecting pigeons but the only reliable one is racing form and even that can be misleading in the early generations. If you select according to form continually better birds will come with increasing regularity.

It is idiots that breed from everything in the loft regardless of what the birds have performed like that gives us the stray problem. Theories are a waste of time and money and paper pedigrees for birds that are bred from prisoner stock are just as bad. If you want to buy winning genes why not buy proven birds with their prize cards from a Sale.

 

Wise words !!!!!!!!

[demolition man]

I like eye sign not every pigeon that breeds winners is a performance pigeon on the road in my opinion. I remember a pigeon I bought in many years ago I called him Eighty Three all his brothers and sisters were multiple winners. The fellow I bought Eighty Three from said that he had collected him from three different lofts after training and that he struggled to home from 3 miles. Eighty Three was destine for the loft in the sky. Until I looked at what I thought was a cracking eye. Eighty Three rewarded me a host of winners with birdage over 5,000 birds. I'm not stupid enough to say that eyesign is the ‘b’all and end all. but I enjoy it and why not if it floats my boat

[dal2]

I like eye sign not every pigeon that breeds winners is a performance pigeon on the road in my opinion. I remember a pigeon I bought in many years ago I called him Eighty Three all his brothers and sisters were multiple winners. The fellow I bought Eighty Three from said that he had collected him from three different lofts after training and that he struggled to home from 3 miles. Eighty Three was destine for the loft in the sky. Until I looked at what I thought was a cracking eye. Eighty Three rewarded me a host of winners with birdage over 5,000 birds. I'm not stupid enough to say that eyesign is the ‘b’all and end all. but I enjoy it and why not if it floats my boat

[/quote

 

Good stuff. Many roads and all that

[paddymac]

It is a load of rubbish. The most important way to select pigeons is to sit down and note each bird's results. There are plenty of short cuts to selecting pigeons but the only reliable one is racing form and even that can be misleading in the early generations. If you select according to form continually better birds will come with increasing regularity.

It is idiots that breed from everything in the loft regardless of what the birds have performed like that gives us the stray problem. Theories are a waste of time and money and paper pedigrees for birds that are bred from prisoner stock are just as bad. If you want to buy winning genes why not buy proven birds with their prize cards from a Sale.

Not all good racers are proven breeders in the stock loft. Food for thought :emoticon-0138-thinking:

[gulkie]

Every one is entitled to his / her option if you think their breeders then breed of them

And if you think they are racers then race them .if you like eyesign then that's down to you.

[JOHNSEE]

It is a load of rubbish. The most important way to select pigeons is to sit down and note each bird's results. There are plenty of short cuts to selecting pigeons but the only reliable one is racing form and even that can be misleading in the early generations. If you select according to form continually better birds will come with increasing regularity.

It is idiots that breed from everything in the loft regardless of what the birds have performed like that gives us the stray problem. Theories are a waste of time and money and paper pedigrees for birds that are bred from prisoner stock are just as bad. If you want to buy winning genes why not buy proven birds with their prize cards from a Sale.

 

Owen,some of what you say may be true,but there again not all,lets start with plenty short cuts to selecting pigeons the only reliable one being racing form.....There are loads of super racing pigeons that could not breed winners and again there are birds that could not fly over the nearest dyke turn out winners in almost every nest....so no short cut there!Now you say paper pedigrees for birds bred from prisoner stock,I am sure the likes of Louella,Steve Wright, and all those fanciers who purchase birds from pigeon studs or indeed fanciers who keep and breed from prisoner stock birds would not agree with your views......my views on eyesign is that it is part of the make-up of racing pigeons,and a weak eyesign is like any other weakness in a birds make up.....take a look at the winners on the front pages of the B.H.W. every week some super birds and if they have a weakness it is certainly not their eyesign.....wish all maembers of P.B. a good breeding season......JBC/..

[Guest Owen]

paddy mac

what you say is true and if you breed from one win wonders it is even more true. I would suggest that if you follow the policy of breeding from every pigeon you own regardless of what they turn out and regardless of what they and their family have done you must be a very rich man. There are no short cuts to finding winning genes no matter what sort of "Witch Craft" people suggest you follow. With all livestock breeding there has to be a method of selection that you can use to find the birds that win races. Pigeon racing is full of "Old Wife's Tales" that are meant to help you find that wonder bird. The only really good method of finding birds that win races is to try out pairings of birds that have achieved success and try the youngsters by fair and thorough progeny testing. The idea is to try to move the family average in terms of performance to a position where your average birds are improving all the time. When the race horse breeders found Black Caviar, Frankel or Secretariat they would not have known that these animals were extraordinary until they tried them but once they knew that they had special animals on their hands they where quick to use them in their breeding plans. All these wonder beasts have come from breeding programmes that have produced poor quality animals but the breeders are not put off by this because they know that by breeding from the best they will inevitably find super individuals in due course. I suggest that we are the same as the race horse people in that we have no idea what we are breeding most of the time until we train and race the birds we breed. Surely those that prove that they have the qualities to win are the ones that we should select to breed with. Obviously even the winners that we have selected as breeders must be subject to further selection by testing their progeny.

[paddymac]

paddy mac

what you say is true and if you breed from one win wonders it is even more true. I would suggest that if you follow the policy of breeding from every pigeon you own regardless of what they turn out and regardless of what they and their family have done you must be a very rich man. There are no short cuts to finding winning genes no matter what sort of "Witch Craft" people suggest you follow. With all livestock breeding there has to be a method of selection that you can use to find the birds that win races. Pigeon racing is full of "Old Wife's Tales" that are meant to help you find that wonder bird. The only really good method of finding birds that win races is to try out pairings of birds that have achieved success and try the youngsters by fair and thorough progeny testing. The idea is to try to move the family average in terms of performance to a position where your average birds are improving all the time. When the race horse breeders found Black Caviar, Frankel or Secretariat they would not have known that these animals were extraordinary until they tried them but once they knew that they had special animals on their hands they where quick to use them in their breeding plans. All these wonder beasts have come from breeding programmes that have produced poor quality animals but the breeders are not put off by this because they know that by breeding from the best they will inevitably find super individuals in due course. I suggest that we are the same as the race horse people in that we have no idea what we are breeding most of the time until we train and race the birds we breed. Surely those that prove that they have the qualities to win are the ones that we should select to breed with. Obviously even the winners that we have selected as breeders must be subject to further selection by testing their progeny.

I agree in part to what you are saying Owen but at the same time unless you have studied it yourself there is no need to throw it out the window or discard it due to ignorance of the subject in question as I'm sure there are a few eyesign experts that will match your chosen method of selection to theirs and possibly come up with the same results. So what has already been said on the thread which would be my side of the argument is each to their own.

[Guest Owen]

When in the sixties the subject of eyesign came out I was as interested as anyone. I bought, and still have, the original book by S.W.E Bishop and tried to apply what he was saying. The Old Hand who was followed by most people at that time also advocated the idea that eyesign was an important way to select the best pigeons. It is worth noting that many of the Old Hands ideas have been discredited since those days. So I am not talking from a position of ignorance or lack of interest in the techniques advocated. There are many examples in livestock handling that have been accepted as the way to do things and some of them have been the accepted routines down the ages. People these days can see that many of these old fashioned ways are wrong and do not help at all. You only need to look at the way cattle are handled where the use of electric prods have given way to well designed handling systems that encourage the animals to flow rather than the terrible business of driving them mad with pain. Horses were once subjected to appalling treatment leading to many of them becoming unsuitable for humans to have contact with them. Dogs were once trained by using cruel techniques that at one time involved the use of electric collars and other nasty methods to break their will and make them do what was wanted by the idiots who lent themselves to these things. People these days know about positive reinforcement and dogs can be trained and at th same time actually enjoy the experience. In Montana the poultry people learned that chicken needed open fronted pens to gain top condition rather than enclosures aimed at protecting them from the cold. Chick just like most birds need a ready supply of oxygen to be healthy rather that the stuffy atmosphere that was created to ward off the cold. The result was more eggs and less frost bite. Pigeons are also subjected to stupid practices and through ignorance can not reach their real potential. The saying "Each to his own" is something that is often said by people who do not want to think things through and just go along with some idea that someone has written or promoted without looking closely at the sense of it. It is not just the subject of eyesign that needs to be carefully examined. There are many things that we all need to look at again and try to understand in a better way and eyesign is just one.

[philg50]

It is a load of rubbish. The most important way to select pigeons is to sit down and note each bird's results. There are plenty of short cuts to selecting pigeons but the only reliable one is racing form and even that can be misleading in the early generations. If you select according to form continually better birds will come with increasing regularity.

It is idiots that breed from everything in the loft regardless of what the birds have performed like that gives us the stray problem. Theories are a waste of time and money and paper pedigrees for birds that are bred from prisoner stock are just as bad. If you want to buy winning genes why not buy proven birds with their prize cards from a Sale.

I agree more with your last post than this first one in your opinion it is a load of rubbish but as you say in the last post everthing needs to be studied and read then a person makes up thier mind, I still look for a nice bright alert eye i dont like a flat wishy washy type eye but thats not to say it means anything its just that at the back of my mind i remember what i read that is where knowledge comes from and on this basis you make up your mind ,or like me your just not 100per cent sure.

[Guest paulrstokes]

I went to one of the best fanciers in the UK, asked about Eyesign.

 

He said he studied it for 3 years, he had books, pictures, drawings, everything.

 

He woke up one morning and put the lot in the bin, said a total waste of time

[Wiley]

I went to one of the best fanciers in the UK, asked about Eyesign.

 

He said he studied it for 3 years, he had books, pictures, drawings, everything.

 

He woke up one morning and put the lot in the bin, said a total waste of time

 

Geoff Cooper?? I saw the same on one of his DVDs, but when I saw his birds for sale on Pipa, i found it strange all his birds had the same characteristics of the eye, and I know nothing of the theory

[JOHNSEE]

When in the sixties the subject of eyesign came out I was as interested as anyone. I bought, and still have, the original book by S.W.E Bishop and tried to apply what he was saying. The Old Hand who was followed by most people at that time also advocated the idea that eyesign was an important way to select the best pigeons. It is worth noting that many of the Old Hands ideas have been discredited since those days. So I am not talking from a position of ignorance or lack of interest in the techniques advocated. There are many examples in livestock handling that have been accepted as the way to do things and some of them have been the accepted routines down the ages. People these days can see that many of these old fashioned ways are wrong and do not help at all. You only need to look at the way cattle are handled where the use of electric prods have given way to well designed handling systems that encourage the animals to flow rather than the terrible business of driving them mad with pain. Horses were once subjected to appalling treatment leading to many of them becoming unsuitable for humans to have contact with them. Dogs were once trained by using cruel techniques that at one time involved the use of electric collars and other nasty methods to break their will and make them do what was wanted by the idiots who lent themselves to these things. People these days know about positive reinforcement and dogs can be trained and at th same time actually enjoy the experience. In Montana the poultry people learned that chicken needed open fronted pens to gain top condition rather than enclosures aimed at protecting them from the cold. Chick just like most birds need a ready supply of oxygen to be healthy rather that the stuffy atmosphere that was created to ward off the cold. The result was more eggs and less frost bite. Pigeons are also subjected to stupid practices and through ignorance can not reach their real potential. The saying "Each to his own" is something that is often said by people who do not want to think things through and just go along with some idea that someone has written or promoted without looking closely at the sense of it. It is not just the subject of eyesign that needs to be carefully examined. There are many things that we all need to look at again and try to understand in a better way and eyesign is just one.

Owen you have travelled off thread,the question was for members thoughts regarding eyesign in pigeons,as I stated in an earlier reply eyesign is only part of the make up of good pigeons,you are old enough to remember the sixties,well you will remember that the majority of pigeons around then had wishy washy eyesign in short the sign was very weak with the odd one or two who had outstanding eyesign,members then did not understand how to read the sign weather it would be a racer or breeder,but since then many many fanciers have improved their knowledge and hence their performances in both racing and breeding,and as a result overall pigeon performances have improved.I do agree with you however that some fanciers breed from anything that lays an egg,I wrote that in an earlier post regarding breeding extra to make up for expectant losses,bred from birds that earned no right to a perch in the loft let alone being bred from....but this is for another thread......p.s. enjoyed the chat....JBC/.

[Guest Owen]

JOHNSEE

I do not agree that birds from years ago had wishy washy eyes. When Bishops work came out and was widely discussed in the press I decided to ask successful fanciers if they would mind if I examined their pigeons' eyes. I examined my own pigeons as well but in those days I had few winners at Club level and none at Fed level. I must have examined hundreds of pairs of eyes. I logged the results of these examinations in a book and gave the information to the pigeon's Owners with the intention of monitoring the progress of the birds concerned. I did not take the subject of eyesign lightly and I thought at the time that I should give the whole thing a thorough and extensive examination because I was excited by what I thought was something of great value.

To cut a long story short the whole thing turned out to be another one of Mr Bishop's flights of fantasy. Like most people I rely on my powers of observation as any decent stockman must, and I am very aware of the condition of the birds' eyes. I like them to be full of colour and bright with quick blinks and full of character.

My way of selecting pigeons to breed from is by looking at their race record and that of their near relatives in much the same way the race horse people do. I can accept that hens can be selected by referring to the family averages but never the cocks. Cocks are similar to the race horse stallions as far as I am concerned. They must perform if they are to be selected to breed. I want all the youngsters that I breed to come from winning cocks without exception.

One last point, I bought a pair of young pigeons from a guy in Belgium. They were two lovely looking birds and full of vitality. As they grew older they both had fantastic eyes and although it was against my better judgement I could see that they have superb eyesign. They turned out to be two of the worst pigeons I have ever owned. I didn't lose them but they were totally unreliable. They would disappear from exercise and come back days later. They would race but never come with the leaders but when they did come they were never tired. Both went missing in the Autumn and returned looking great during the Winter but by then I had enough of them and their eyesign.

[greenlands]

Something to have a browse through.

 

http://www.tourdesmaritimes.com/Eyesign/Eyesign101/myron_kulik_intro.htm

[JOHNSEE]

JOHNSEE

I do not agree that birds from years ago had wishy washy eyes. When Bishops work came out and was widely discussed in the press I decided to ask successful fanciers if they would mind if I examined their pigeons' eyes. I examined my own pigeons as well but in those days I had few winners at Club level and none at Fed level. I must have examined hundreds of pairs of eyes. I logged the results of these examinations in a book and gave the information to the pigeon's Owners with the intention of monitoring the progress of the birds concerned. I did not take the subject of eyesign lightly and I thought at the time that I should give the whole thing a thorough and extensive examination because I was excited by what I thought was something of great value.

To cut a long story short the whole thing turned out to be another one of Mr Bishop's flights of fantasy. Like most people I rely on my powers of observation as any decent stockman must, and I am very aware of the condition of the birds' eyes. I like them to be full of colour and bright with quick blinks and full of character.

My way of selecting pigeons to breed from is by looking at their race record and that of their near relatives in much the same way the race horse people do. I can accept that hens can be selected by referring to the family averages but never the cocks. Cocks are similar to the race horse stallions as far as I am concerned. They must perform if they are to be selected to breed. I want all the youngsters that I breed to come from winning cocks without exception.

One last point, I bought a pair of young pigeons from a guy in Belgium. They were two lovely looking birds and full of vitality. As they grew older they both had fantastic eyes and although it was against my better judgement I could see that they have superb eyesign. They turned out to be two of the worst pigeons I have ever owned. I didn't lose them but they were totally unreliable. They would disappear from exercise and come back days later. They would race but never come with the leaders but when they did come they were never tired. Both went missing in the Autumn and returned looking great during the Winter but by then I had enough of them and their eyesign.

Owen,One very quick question,did you ever breed from these two birds ?......cheers..JBC/..

[JOHNSEE]

Something to have a browse through.

 

http://www.tourdesmaritimes.com/Eyesign/Eyesign101/myron_kulik_intro.htm

 

thanks....fair bit o reading/studying

[greenlands]

thanks....fair bit o reading/studying

Something more for you to read mate.Click on eyesign.

 

http://www.albertaclassic.com/sitemap.php

[Guest Owen]

JOHNSEE

No mate I wouldn't breed from birds like that and they both went the way of all my rejects. During their stay with me one of them would go to another guys loft about 2 miles from here. The guy concerned got very upset with me because he thought I should confine the bird and not let it bother him. I have a policy of not breeding from birds that will not race properly so the bird had to go. I take my lead from the race horse people. All the foals are sired to by winning fathers and most of the mares are either winners themselves or from winning fathers. I know that even that does not guarantee that all the progeny will be winners but I reckon that I breed far more winners than if I did things any other way.

[hotrod]

JOHNSEE

No mate I wouldn't breed from birds like that and they both went the way of all my rejects. During their stay with me one of them would go to another guys loft about 2 miles from here. The guy concerned got very upset with me because he thought I should confine the bird and not let it bother him. I have a policy of not breeding from birds that will not race properly so the bird had to go. I take my lead from the race horse people. All the foals are sired to by winning fathers and most of the mares are either winners themselves or from winning fathers. I know that even that does not guarantee that all the progeny will be winners but I reckon that I breed far more winners than if I did things any other way.

I don't think so Owen ,horse racing , I could never ever remember Celtic cone being a prolific winner in races , but as a sire of national hunt racers , his offspring were champions , Celtic shot , Celtic chief , to name a few could name a plenty others that won at the festival at Cheltenham . All top horses , yes in flat racers their all bred but top race sires .

[greenlands]

Owen, one of the best breeders I have ever had,in fact two never won a race.The first I went to buy a noted hen in the village a 1968 bird,when I was walking away,I turned to the seller and asked if there was a cock that would suit her,reply " my late father said never to race the pied cock ( NU68A2338 )but to breed off him" he gifted him to me,absolutely rubbish in the basket,out several times and nearly got rid but was a cock short.Lucky me.Just about a winner in every nest.

Similar story with a red cheq. Dordin cock,had a hen out on loan and went to collect her,I was asked how I was fixed,cock short with taking her home.Took my pick out of the loft and his statement was " you've just about picked the worst of the lot rubbish in the basket and was not keeping.

NOT as far as breeding,again done me well.

Good luck mate I enjoy reading your posts