Tic Beans

[walterboswell59]

i find barley is a good guide in your mix if not sure how much to give them as they leave it first then lift it away also watching your birds and they will tell you what they need and when they need it george m8

[Guest Owen]

Neila,

I never use a maize rich diet these days because pigeons get their available energy to race on from fat/oil. High carb diets was one of those fazes that pigeon fanciers went through based on the sort of diet that human runners use to run distance races. I never ration feed my birds because I view that as old fashioned and not something that has a place in modern pigeon management. My whole system of racing pigeons is based on keeping things simple and cutting the work down to as little as possible as long as it brings results.

[neila]

very interesting posts Owen , thank you for a interesting topic

 

I always tried to carbo load but your post have made me think again , can I ask on the barley based diet do you fly 350-500 miles or would this be more for a sprint program ? or would you just increase the fats to fly the distance

 

thanks

[soupie]

Hi lads, when you's mention "high fat/oil" mixes , are these like the versele laga energy mix or would you mind giving the names of the mixes you use ??

 

cheers

 

soupie

[Guest Owen]

neila,

there has to be a combination of things to make this work properly. You need to use the fat rich feed earlier to fly the longer distances but to avoid the increase of too much weight you need to make sure that you train the birds during the period that you do this. The ideal training to support this type of feeding is short tosses along the line of flight giving the birds frequent tosses rather than long distances. I idea is to get the birds flying along a familiar route so that they will fly at real pace. In this way the techniques used are similar to human athletes where you go for a burst of speed rather than the old fashioned slow drawn out type of exercise.

I hope that has helped.

[Guest IB]

Hi lads, when you's mention "high fat/oil" mixes , are these like the versele laga energy mix or would you mind giving the names of the mixes you use ??

 

cheers

 

soupie

 

Next time you are in a store that does Bucktons have a look at the bar graph on the back of the bag that shows hi or lo Protein, Carbohydrate and Fat. As far as I know Bucktons are the only one that have that graph on the bag.

 

The contents are also listed on the front, and they are named in order of quantity - highest % first and lowest last.

 

The one I tried this year was Irish Ruby - for its no bean + highest fat content. The contents are Ruby Maize, Maple Peas, Red Dari, Plate Maize, White Dari, Tares, Blue Peas, White Peas & Safflower Seed.

[neila]

I think the super diet mix may be higher fat than Irish ruby ,VL do one and I know Bamfords do

[neila]

neila,

there has to be a combination of things to make this work properly. You need to use the fat rich feed earlier to fly the longer distances but to avoid the increase of too much weight you need to make sure that you train the birds during the period that you do this. The ideal training to support this type of feeding is short tosses along the line of flight giving the birds frequent tosses rather than long distances. I idea is to get the birds flying along a familiar route so that they will fly at real pace. In this way the techniques used are similar to human athletes where you go for a burst of speed rather than the old fashioned slow drawn out type of exercise.

I hope that has helped.

 

yes Owen , I think I have more of a understanding now fats increased to match the work load to come and increased from late in the week or for longer races a percentage of fat earlier with regular short training

is that close Owen?

[Tony C]

Bucktons Xpert mix is Ideal for those extra fats, add it to your feed when you feel it necessary http://bucktons.co.uk/pigeon-racing-mixes.php

[Guest Owen]

neila

yes Mate you have that right. Now you need to try these things out in practice and you will be able to refine the way you do things.

When you are getting the feeding right you will give the birds a feed before 9am on the day of basketing and nothing after without spoiling the birds' chances for the next day. Then everything will click into place.

By the way, when you train go to 10 miles as a maximum on the line of flight and don't train with other people. The more often you can do this the better the birds will get. You don't want the birds having to worry about the route home because that slows them down. If they are kept at the same place they will come out of the crate and fly flat out on their journey home which conditions them really well.

[neila]

thanks Owen

 

I will look at trying this feeding method out

[Guest stb-]

neila,

there has to be a combination of things to make this work properly. You need to use the fat rich feed earlier to fly the longer distances but to avoid the increase of too much weight you need to make sure that you train the birds during the period that you do this. The ideal training to support this type of feeding is short tosses along the line of flight giving the birds frequent tosses rather than long distances. I idea is to get the birds flying along a familiar route so that they will fly at real pace. In this way the techniques used are similar to human athletes where you go for a burst of speed rather than the old fashioned slow drawn out type of exercise.

I hope that has helped.

quite interesting owen but for birds thats flying 15 to 16 hours on the day i wouldnt want birds that fly at a fast pace as they would never keep that up after 10 hrs or less, i like the birds to fly at good steady 30 to 40mph over a longer toss as they will hopefully keep the 30 to 40 mph to fly there 15 ours and with a bit of luck make home before dark depending on wind and weather conditions off course , distance birds have a totally different wing beat and stroke , if you put them out to excsrsise at home latter in the evening after about 40 mins to an hour you will see them starting to fly with a totally diffo stroke , ie one beat to the others 2 beats but still flying at same speed as others

[just ask me]

im of the belief that birds have a natural speed feeding the right way will allow the bird fly for longer at his natural speed before his energy body fats and a build up of lactic acid start to take effect

[Guest stb-]

im of the belief that birds have a natural speed feeding the right way will allow the bird fly for longer at his natural speed before his energy body fats and a build up of lactic acid start to take effect

i dont think theres any feeding will make a sprinter fly 15 hours none stop but maby a distance bird will go a bit faster on short races on the correct feed like owen uses for speed .

 

theres always exceptions to the rule .

 

I remeber mid 70s to mid 80 one bloke won club and fed averages for 10 yrs and won from start to finnish ie 60 to 500miles . he hopper feed on horse beans and feed dog tooth maize only on a sunday after race then back to beans . birds lived on open hole all the time only locked in for a training toss but suited his birds perfect as he was real difficult to beat in a big competative club .

[Guest IB]

STB and Owen: I think you both make good points. But I believe it is a must that fanciers need to spell out the type & level of racing he or she participates in before describing a particular feeding regime for it.

 

Training is much the same .. when I first started back I was given a training regime of three times a week, every week, no further than 20 miles, and on the line of flight. It was only later that I discovered that this was a typical? widowhood cock sprinter regime for Federation racing up to 200 miles, while what I was looking for was a training regime for National racing 300 to 600 miles. Two 'very different courses and very different horses'.

[Guest Owen]

Just to put the record straight. No matter whether pigeons are asked to fly long or short races, the one thing that is important is that they must be fit and of the right weight. So there is no way that anyone can train to get pigeons to fly at a steady pace no matter what pace you would like them to fly at. On the other hand you can train pigeons to fly on a direct route at a fast pace. Much of this sort of discussion tends to be academic and at the end of the day is just a lot of words. I like to make my decisions based on results and nothing else. I have pigeons that will fly longer races providing that I feed them in a way that prepares them for the job in hand. I experimented with 6 yearling hens and prepared them to fly Saintes this year. As it turned out Saintes was a very tough race a few birds made in on the day and there were serious losses and many experienced Fanciers did not get a bird at all. 5 of my yearling hens were in race time and 2 were on the night. I think the thing that shocked a lot of people was the fact that my pigeons are fed, bred and trained to sprint.

So rather than quote examples of what people have done years ago or try to work out what should happen I reckon it is better to accept the results of training and feeding when you know exactly how things have been done. One of the biggest bug bears of the pigeon sport is that people will consistently try to impose human conditions and values on pigeons. It is no matter whether it is lofts, relationships between the birds, relationships between birds and owners or diet. Pigeons are a completely different species and their bodies work in a very different way to us mammals so the best ways to help them become fit and healthy are common to them and bear no real comparison to human values and conditions. Although it is obvious, surely no-one believes that pigeons actually race. What they do is to come home from a remote place they have been taken to. Then their next priority will be to avoid being food for a predator so rather that trying to out fly the pigeons forced to navigate home with them they are more likely to take refuge in the bunches because it is safer that way. The notion of pigeons pacing themselves is pure fantasy because what they actually do is try to stay with the bunch they happen to be with and fly more or less at that pace. Fit birds will without doubt prefer to be heading home in the leading bunches because they will find refuge of their loft quicker and the urge to satisfy their physical needs will come that much quicker. So in regard to diet and training we need to continually try new things and learn what works which is what I have tried to do. On the occasions when I have explained to people far and wide the way I do things on a day to day basis it is always based on the what has actually worked for me. Perhaps it is worth me saying that as time goes on and I try out more ideas my practises will change to suit anything that improves my results.

[Guest TAMMY_1]

i dont think theres any feeding will make a sprinter fly 15 hours none stop but maby a distance bird will go a bit faster on short races on the correct feed like owen uses for speed .

 

theres always exceptions to the rule .

 

I remeber mid 70s to mid 80 one bloke won club and fed averages for 10 yrs and won from start to finnish ie 60 to 500miles . he hopper feed on horse beans and feed dog tooth maize only on a sunday after race then back to beans . birds lived on open hole all the time only locked in for a training toss but suited his birds perfect as he was real difficult to beat in a big competative club .

 

the late Hugh Brown had his birds on hoppers full of beans and they only got some added maize as the distance went out and his record over the years at club and fed level was fantastic so I would not be convinced that feeding a lot of beans will ever do any harm at all,everybody only has their own opinion on feeding beans and that is all it is each persons own opinion.At first I thought was only pulling my leg about the beans till I visited his lofts and in the hoppers were nothing but beans,he took me to his feed store and there were only two piles of feed ,one high pile of only beans and a small pile of maize,I never doubted Hugh again.

[Guest stb-]

Just to put the record straight. No matter whether pigeons are asked to fly long or short races, the one thing that is important is that they must be fit and of the right weight. So there is no way that anyone can train to get pigeons to fly at a steady pace no matter what pace you would like them to fly at. On the other hand you can train pigeons to fly on a direct route at a fast pace. Much of this sort of discussion tends to be academic and at the end of the day is just a lot of words. I like to make my decisions based on results and nothing else. I have pigeons that will fly longer races providing that I feed them in a way that prepares them for the job in hand. I experimented with 6 yearling hens and prepared them to fly Saintes this year. As it turned out Saintes was a very tough race a few birds made in on the day and there were serious losses and many experienced Fanciers did not get a bird at all. 5 of my yearling hens were in race time and 2 were on the night. I think the thing that shocked a lot of people was the fact that my pigeons are fed, bred and trained to sprint.

So rather than quote examples of what people have done years ago or try to work out what should happen I reckon it is better to accept the results of training and feeding when you know exactly how things have been done. One of the biggest bug bears of the pigeon sport is that people will consistently try to impose human conditions and values on pigeons. It is no matter whether it is lofts, relationships between the birds, relationships between birds and owners or diet. Pigeons are a completely different species and their bodies work in a very different way to us mammals so the best ways to help them become fit and healthy are common to them and bear no real comparison to human values and conditions. Although it is obvious, surely no-one believes that pigeons actually race. What they do is to come home from a remote place they have been taken to. Then their next priority will be to avoid being food for a predator so rather that trying to out fly the pigeons forced to navigate home with them they are more likely to take refuge in the bunches because it is safer that way. The notion of pigeons pacing themselves is pure fantasy because what they actually do is try to stay with the bunch they happen to be with and fly more or less at that pace. Fit birds will without doubt prefer to be heading home in the leading bunches because they will find refuge of their loft quicker and the urge to satisfy their physical needs will come that much quicker. So in regard to diet and training we need to continually try new things and learn what works which is what I have tried to do. On the occasions when I have explained to people far and wide the way I do things on a day to day basis it is always based on the what has actually worked for me. Perhaps it is worth me saying that as time goes on and I try out more ideas my practises will change to suit anything that improves my results.

correct Owen you cannot train to fly at a certain pace sprint mid distance pigeons to 450 miles have tottaly different natural speed than 600 mile birds they have a tottaly different wing shape too , cant see usain bolt doing the 25 k dosent matter howmuch barley or oil you feed him , horses for courses derby winners dont win at the grand national , the grand national horses are always slower and usually older than the flat sprint horses but have much more stamina

 

the derby is run over 4 furlongs and 10 yrds sprint ..the grand nat is 30 furlongs there is no way either will win the other dosent matter what you feed them , pigeons exactly the same .

 

well done on your saintes win was that with the nfc Owen .

 

saintes is 724 to hear and would not consider sending sprint pigeon to that distance but would i send them 450

[We man]

Just to put the record straight. No matter whether pigeons are asked to fly long or short races, the one thing that is important is that they must be fit and of the right weight. So there is no way that anyone can train to get pigeons to fly at a steady pace no matter what pace you would like them to fly at. On the other hand you can train pigeons to fly on a direct route at a fast pace. Much of this sort of discussion tends to be academic and at the end of the day is just a lot of words. I like to make my decisions based on results and nothing else. I have pigeons that will fly longer races providing that I feed them in a way that prepares them for the job in hand. I experimented with 6 yearling hens and prepared them to fly Saintes this year. As it turned out Saintes was a very tough race a few birds made in on the day and there were serious losses and many experienced Fanciers did not get a bird at all. 5 of my yearling hens were in race time and 2 were on the night. I think the thing that shocked a lot of people was the fact that my pigeons are fed, bred and trained to sprint.

So rather than quote examples of what people have done years ago or try to work out what should happen I reckon it is better to accept the results of training and feeding when you know exactly how things have been done. One of the biggest bug bears of the pigeon sport is that people will consistently try to impose human conditions and values on pigeons. It is no matter whether it is lofts, relationships between the birds, relationships between birds and owners or diet. Pigeons are a completely different species and their bodies work in a very different way to us mammals so the best ways to help them become fit and healthy are common to them and bear no real comparison to human values and conditions. Although it is obvious, surely no-one believes that pigeons actually race. What they do is to come home from a remote place they have been taken to. Then their next priority will be to avoid being food for a predator so rather that trying to out fly the pigeons forced to navigate home with them they are more likely to take refuge in the bunches because it is safer that way. The notion of pigeons pacing themselves is pure fantasy because what they actually do is try to stay with the bunch they happen to be with and fly more or less at that pace. Fit birds will without doubt prefer to be heading home in the leading bunches because they will find refuge of their loft quicker and the urge to satisfy their physical needs will come that much quicker. So in regard to diet and training we need to continually try new things and learn what works which is what I have tried to do. On the occasions when I have explained to people far and wide the way I do things on a day to day basis it is always based on the what has actually worked for me. Perhaps it is worth me saying that as time goes on and I try out more ideas my practises will change to suit anything that improves my results.

As usual great post,keep it going Owen always learn something from your excellent words of wisdom,and top stuff from your yearlings.

[Guest stb-]

the late Hugh Brown had his birds on hoppers full of beans and they only got some added maize as the distance went out and his record over the years at club and fed level was fantastic so I would not be convinced that feeding a lot of beans will ever do any harm at all,everybody only has their own opinion on feeding beans and that is all it is each persons own opinion.At first I thought was only pulling my leg about the beans till I visited his lofts and in the hoppers were nothing but beans,he took me to his feed store and there were only two piles of feed ,one high pile of only beans and a small pile of maize,I never doubted Hugh again.

yes tammy there are still a good few who feed beans maples etc and fly really well at all distances

but good pigeons come into it aswell horses for courses again .Also know others who feed gerry plus and widowhood mix with some sunflower hearts or peanuts as distance comes up and get same results ,

I think this article is a great oneon barley ,from chris gordon , his sprinter get lots his distance birds dont and get beans nearer the long races

 

 

http://www.elimarpigeons.com/Article3/Gordon.htm

[We man]

correct Owen you cannot train to fly at a certain pace sprint mid distance pigeons to 450 miles have tottaly different natural speed than 600 mile birds they have a tottaly different wing shape too , cant see usain bolt doing the 25 k dosent matter howmuch barley or oil you feed him , horses for courses derby winners dont win at the grand national , the grand national horses are always slower and usually older than the flat sprint horses but have much more stamina

 

the derby is run over 4 furlongs and 10 yrds sprint ..the grand nat is 30 furlongs there is no way either will win the other dosent matter what you feed them , pigeons exactly the same .

 

well done on your saintes win was that with the nfc Owen .

 

saintes is 724 to hear and would not consider sending sprint pigeon to that distance but would i send them 450

Not trying to be a wise guy but as has been said on here before the ONLY way we will know if wee have distance birds is to send them to the distance,many so called sprinter strains prove this.omo.

[Guest stb-]

Not trying to be a wise guy but as has been said on here before the ONLY way we will know if wee have distance birds is to send them to the distance,many so called sprinter strains prove this.omo.

if you choose to sprint you will go and buy the best birds for the fast sprint races yo can afford , you will not go and buy 700 mile pigeons

 

supposing you manage to get the right sprint birds thats done that distance for year i dont think you will get many 600 milers from them if any

 

you know you have sprint birds as thats what you purchased why send em 600 or 700 miles to see if youve been sold the wrong ones .

 

also if i wanted out and out distance birds i wouldnt be buying cooremans or lambrects to start out with , horses for courses .

[gulkie]

I am a beginner with no authority on this matter whatsoever, but it appears to me that you can feed for speed (modern mixes) and suffer heavy losses or feed for stamina (old style), be a bit later , but have better returns. The birds have more in the tank.

Is it a case that the modern scientific mixes do not take account of our diverse weather and geography? When the birds hit problems whether weather originated or caused by BOP avoidance, they have nothing left in the tank to get themselves home?

Like ur answer m8 could be a factor . New comer or not makes sense .

[Kyleakin Lofts]

Like ur answer m8 could be a factor . New comer or not makes sense .

 

Birds used to keep coming for days and weeks in times past, but it doesn't seem to happen now. I appreciate there are denser populations of peregrines now, but if the birds have been fed to return, but only just, then if they hit problems they are finished. They just don't have the energy to rise again, if they haven't already flown themselves to death.

It is supremely difficult here in the west, except for fanciers of Derek Hay's calibre, so for me as a beginner it is slowly slowly catchee monkey.

Rab, STB, would say all my pigeons are monkeys right enough. :emoticon-0140-rofl:

[VMS]

Wish I lived in the land that it was all the fault ov the perigrine