Are We Missing Something

[peter pandy]

A nunber of weeks ago I posted a comment that one or two forum members wished to know more about so here we go.

Inbreeding,Linebreeding,Crossing,are all ways of describing breeding success ! Yet if we ask others the most important aspect of a racing pigeon we will obtain many answers perhaps without coming to the most important. The first three will in all probability hardly be mentioned as most fanciers will opt for Health & Fitness, some the Loft, some their Enviroment, some the Feeding, others the Family or strain. Yet we still have not hit the nail on the head. Many fanciers my-self included have purchased the very best proven specimens yet still failed in our endeavour to get to the top which to me proves that blood is not the the answer.

We do not race horses where we can ascertain their performance on the track nor animal livestock where farmers are breeding for certain characteristics to enable higher prices at market.

We take a racing pigeon in our hands,[1] we know what it is bred from how it handles feel its muscles look at its eye we know we have the goods to race successfully yet it fails and is never seen again. [2]we send another which handles the same way and it returns late every time and becomes a plodder. [3]We send another same way as 1 & 2 and it wins once in its career, To many this is the best pigeon because we have more of the same to take its place IF we are fortunate enough.

When number 2 has returned late for the umpteenth time you dispose of it and have probably disposed of the best bird in the loft.!!!.

If you have a decent team of pigeons but feel you need a cross but dont know where to go then the simple answer is DONT.

If you have perused the above you will have noticed that I never mentioned THE HOMING INSTINCT which is something we know nothing about.

YOU CANNOT SEE IT FEEL IT OR SMELL IT which makes us all equals. Some pigeons MAY have it more than others which is why Eddie Newcombe used to send 20 pairs of his birds to his brother 10 miles away to breed a pair of youngsters and they were all returned back to his loft. That was his cross THE HOMING INSTINCT CROSS.

I could go further and state [to my mind] that the further the distance the stronger the homing instinct has to be. "PROVE ME WRONG" and when you bring in other birds you weaken the ORIGINAL HOMING INSTINCT.

[Guest darren cantrill]

i understand the importance of the homing instinct which comes naturally to most pigeons though ive owned a few in the past that beggar belief! i actually had 1 hen who the week before trapped like a bullett so im told to a loft 10miles north of were me and my partners pen was located was returned by car and promptly went and topped the fed the next week!!! laff i nearly cried had to eat my own hat literally the next week and was left scratching my head and still am!!!! 6 years later.i agree with you in principle but feel we the man have a massive input on that instinct to home and literally tune it up to the hilt when racing ie widowwood chippings eggs racing to youngsters and love of a safe home where all the pigeons needs are met we the owner inbreed line breed and we do dictate the outcome of said prodegeny its our influence all round that effects not the homing ability but the willingness to home or indeed race a pigeon has a choice when released from a race point dont go home,take the scenic route,or race for home like its life depended on it and if i thought i couldnt manipulate the homing instinct then that pigeon wouldnt be any good to me no matter where it homed from i need it to race and race it should we have a massive influence on our pigeons and good pigeon men have a loft full of contenders who as you say can quite rightly home and they wouldnt dilute said family of pigeons but they would manipulate said homing instinct and do to make there lofts unbeatable a good pigeonman will win with mediocure pigeons a bad pigeon man might win with good pigeons but i do understand your point of view and there isnt a day goes by that the little mealy hen who topped the fed after obsconding the week before hasnt had me wondering how the bloody hell did we fluke that 1!

[andy Burgess]

good posts , worth a read .

[Guest Tooshy Boy]

[Guest bluemorning]

good posts lads,thinking are the best pigeon men just naturals ?

[peter pandy]

Darren,

I have not mentioned motivation and how to make a plodder win but will later to prove a point !!.

[andy Burgess]

Darren,

I have not mentioned motivation and how to make a plodder win but will later to prove a point !!.

look forward to that one .

[stan the man]

look forward to that one .

[sharkfin]

Excellent read guys

[victorious]

i really like these posts they have me thinking,we are always learning keep it up lads.

[Guest darren cantrill]

good posts lads,thinking are the best pigeon men just naturals ?

 

hi, i think and this is just my opinion some people are just gifted and as such so are some pigeons peter pandy has a point that it maybe isnt the pigeon that wins once that carries the winning gene but the plodder who we havent been able to tap if you look back through history the best flyers allways had the best pigeons nearley a century ago shaw ripped the manchester flying club apart with gurney pigeons was it the pigeons the then new method widdowood or shaw himself? the best flyers today especially at the distance have moulded there pigeons into type over decades not just a few years adding the genes of other top flyers who have done the same now and again to hopefully better there gene pool they would and still do swap there best breeders they dont waste hard earned money chasing fads they are patiant consistant men who quietly go about there buisiness (winning)in my opinion shaw bought his winning with genorosity and kindness gurney because of the war would of been hung as a spy if caught with his pigeons he downloaded his knowledge into shaw about the widdowood method and shaw looked after his pigeons for him so to speak i dont want to take anything away from shaw but gurney was the mastermind the pigeons of gurney the tools and shaw followed instruction once gifted with this knowledge shaw was unbeatable i have watched over the past ten years sale sale sale the fly faster pigeon the fly faster corn the suppliments people paying far to much for pigeons just because they have no patiance i have been there and done it myself how many times have we spent big money on a bird and the younsters have been poor any other pigeon and we would despatch it but cause its from the big money pigeon we give it another chance there is the fundemental mistake money doesnt buy 1st prizes knowledge does winning pigeon 30% pigeon 70% man and the said mealy hen who had me all a fluster winning the fed after it went awol the week before topped the cov and dist fed and its nest mate was second fed i do believe for alan armstrong of the now partnership of armstrong and wheatley so 2 pigeons from the same nest flying for 2 different men who would believe that the pigeon that won was the week before living it up in someone elses pen cause as i said its had me scratching my head to this day!!!!! if a pigeon can home and home well a good pigeon man can make it win a few of these winning or consistant pigeons top 20% in your loft say should then be moulded into your own family and its not the winning pigeon you should go and buy but the pigeons who breed winning pigeons are the holy grail and who do they belong to??????? the people who are winning!

[peter pandy]

I was reading Rod Adams article in to-days R.P. and it reminded me of a conversation I had with my boss C.J Williams.

I had been his loft manager for 7 days and he asked the question What is the best bird in the loft ?. Bearing in mind their were 40 widow-hood cocks and about 50 pairs of naturals, I started by saying that in my opinion and he stopped me in mid sentence retorting that every body has an opinion and he wanted fact combined with knowledge. So I started again and told him there were 2 and I could not tell which was the better. He replied that he was thinking he had made a mistake in employing me as the Blue Pied cock I had picked was in fact a stray and the Red Cock always returned the day after the race was flown. In all probability the worst 2 birds in the loft.

Now C.J. as he was affectionally known had never won a race for 20 years and loft location was blamed by previous loft managers however I told him that if the birds I had picked out did not win then he could sack me. I can assure you dear readers that the look he gave me warranted no sympathy however I had a free hand to do as I wished.I left the Red Cock in the widow-hood section and moved the Blue Pied into the natural section where I went about setting it up for a race of my choosing informing C.J. of my intentions. The Blue Pied was sent feeding a 12 day youngster and just starting to look at his hen again along with 30 widow cocks as C.J. was determined it could not beat them. Result Blue Pied 1st Federation with the 30 widow cocks 1 1/2 hours later. His training consisted of 2 x 90 mile single up from the southern boundary of the Federation to ensure his homing ability was strong which was all I required to have confidence in him.

The lesson learned from C.J was every one has an opinion but few have fact and wisdom resulting in I rarely have an opinion now unless specifically asked for it.

[andy Burgess]

I was reading Rod Adams article in to-days R.P. and it reminded me of a conversation I had with my boss C.J Williams.

I had been his loft manager for 7 days and he asked the question What is the best bird in the loft ?. Bearing in mind their were 40 widow-hood cocks and about 50 pairs of naturals, I started by saying that in my opinion and he stopped me in mid sentence retorting that every body has an opinion and he wanted fact combined with knowledge. So I started again and told him there were 2 and I could not tell which was the better. He replied that he was thinking he had made a mistake in employing me as the Blue Pied cock I had picked was in fact a stray and the Red Cock always returned the day after the race was flown. In all probability the worst 2 birds in the loft.

Now C.J. as he was affectionally known had never won a race for 20 years and loft location was blamed by previous loft managers however I told him that if the birds I had picked out did not win then he could sack me. I can assure you dear readers that the look he gave me warranted no sympathy however I had a free hand to do as I wished.I left the Red Cock in the widow-hood section and moved the Blue Pied into the natural section where I went about setting it up for a race of my choosing informing C.J. of my intentions. The Blue Pied was sent feeding a 12 day youngster and just starting to look at his hen again along with 30 widow cocks as C.J. was determined it could not beat them. Result Blue Pied 1st Federation with the 30 widow cocks 1 1/2 hours later. His training consisted of 2 x 90 mile single up from the southern boundary of the Federation to ensure his homing ability was strong which was all I required to have confidence in him.

The lesson learned from C.J was every one has an opinion but few have fact and wisdom resulting in I rarely have an opinion now unless specifically asked for it.

very good , keep them stories coming , i ,"in my opinion" ,think there very good.

[Guest darren cantrill]

I was reading Rod Adams article in to-days R.P. and it reminded me of a conversation I had with my boss C.J Williams.

I had been his loft manager for 7 days and he asked the question What is the best bird in the loft ?. Bearing in mind their were 40 widow-hood cocks and about 50 pairs of naturals, I started by saying that in my opinion and he stopped me in mid sentence retorting that every body has an opinion and he wanted fact combined with knowledge. So I started again and told him there were 2 and I could not tell which was the better. He replied that he was thinking he had made a mistake in employing me as the Blue Pied cock I had picked was in fact a stray and the Red Cock always returned the day after the race was flown. In all probability the worst 2 birds in the loft.

Now C.J. as he was affectionally known had never won a race for 20 years and loft location was blamed by previous loft managers however I told him that if the birds I had picked out did not win then he could sack me. I can assure you dear readers that the look he gave me warranted no sympathy however I had a free hand to do as I wished.I left the Red Cock in the widow-hood section and moved the Blue Pied into the natural section where I went about setting it up for a race of my choosing informing C.J. of my intentions. The Blue Pied was sent feeding a 12 day youngster and just starting to look at his hen again along with 30 widow cocks as C.J. was determined it could not beat them. Result Blue Pied 1st Federation with the 30 widow cocks 1 1/2 hours later. His training consisted of 2 x 90 mile single up from the southern boundary of the Federation to ensure his homing ability was strong which was all I required to have confidence in him.

The lesson learned from C.J was every one has an opinion but few have fact and wisdom resulting in I rarely have an opinion now unless specifically asked for it.

[Guest darren cantrill]

sorry pressed the wrong button! my education in the art of racing pigeons is ongoing and though i have tried on many occassions hundreds to be exact i couldnt pick another persons best pigeon on observation alone without there help or sneaking a look at the ring number i have in my search for knowledge left no stone unturned and have gone as far to see what effect performance enhancing drugs have on pigeons shock horror well and this is not an admittance of guilt as i never flew a pigeon in any race doctored but training said pigeons yes i admit curiosity got the better of me and having friends who earned their living as sportsmen i had a key to the medicine cabinet so to speak this knowledge had a significant effect on my pigeons and me and there is one thing im sure of and proved peolple i was racing against were doctoring their pigeons i didnt start rumours i didnt shout it out loudly i approached said people and delt with it accordingly and to my relief the drug act was enacted so to those who want to know how far i would go in search of knowledge there isnt anything that i wouldnt try to understand and knowledge does gain you the upper hand as in any sport there are cheats there are people who would do anything absolutely anything to win!to compete with these people you must arm yourself with knowledge. the way to win the art of flying a good pigeon is a reflection of the man or women who flys them if you are lazy your pigeons will be lazy if you are stern and hard with your pigeons they will never have any affection for you its a balance but you have to get into there heads find out what makes them tick and above all what motivates them and the answers dont lie in potions and bottles it frightens me to think what medicines are pumped into pigeons now. i read old pigeon books and im off onto ebay in a bit to hunt out some old favorites i enjoy reading new material aswell and like most when it comes to breeding i get confused line breeding inbreeding an outcross cross eyed more like though i know when i start again its something ive got to master if im going to achieve the goals i set myself in pigeon racing so peter can you explain to me how you picked them pigeons off the perch are you saying that it was your motivation of these pigeons that broke cj"s novice status? and to those who have read this far the best reading material ive read up to now is about or by ad schaerlaeckens i learnt more reading about him and what he does than from any other source

[peter pandy]

It is or was never my intention to upset or denegrate anyone as I only added the word "opinion" as part of my post.

The intention was that I am dealing in facts and personal knowledge "wisdom" in what I have experienced in over 50 years in the sport.

If I can help the next generation with my experience then I will feel I have accomplished something.

We all have some part to play in this sport.

[Guest darren cantrill]

It is or was never my intention to upset or denegrate anyone as I only added the word "opinion" as part of my post.

The intention was that I am dealing in facts and personal knowledge "wisdom" in what I have experienced in over 50 years in the sport.

If I can help the next generation with my experience then I will feel I have accomplished something.

We all have some part to play in this sport.

 

there was non taken my friend ive read my first line again and it comes across wrong if u look above my post theres 1 off me again with your post in and i did try to reply and did press the wrong button and its empty ive enjoyed hearing about your time in pigeons and i like you would never intentionally upset any1 got some real funny ones for ya aswell try and lighten the note maybe the tales of me and dear old eric underwood the worst two flyers in the club i actually believe in the country i was late 20s and eric was late 70s eric had hip problems and more often than not walked with sticks eric had a plan he wanted a lift to a fanciers auction in rugby one id been contemplating for weeks and there was no way he was getting one up on me so i asked my girl if she would give us a lift there no problem we arrived at the sale and eric asked me if we could sit at the front as he had trouble hearing so i plonked two chairs right in the middle directly infront of the auctioneer there we sat and i asked eric what birds he was interested in and quote he replied non of your bloody business!a big smile on his face there were good birds at this sale and i knew from sneaking a peek at his bhw as he got in the car it was the tasker pigeons 1 had a big mark next to it and i fancied that pigeon meself so i said well i like lot 5 wot say you? nar i aint bothered bout that 1.look i said there aint many here i like eric so if you like that 1 ill look at something else.your ok he said i aint bothered so said auction started and around came lot 5 it was at 20 quid and i thought ill have a bit of that 30 then 40 i said 50, 60 i said the bird got up2 80 then b4 you know it were at 100 110 120 i went back in last shot for me i said to eric and as i turned seen him nod his head are you bloody bidding no he said i turned and looked around the room no one else was are you bidding against me eric ya daft so and so well you can bloody have it now i dont want it he said well neither do i he said well your a funny bugger he retorted you said you wanted number 5 i did but not at that price well youve got it now well i dont bloody want it he said well i phoned sarah (my girl at the time who gave us the lift) and she told me the ones you wanted so ive marked them in me magazine look and proceeded to hand me said magazine id sneaked a peek at earlier what do you mean i said well you said you wanted them so im bidding on them well ive been bidding aswell eric expletive remove y would i need pigeons darren he said well you or me are bottom everyweek i said and he chuckled and waved his sticks at me it takes me 10 minutes to get down the garden darren and if a pigeon comes 5 minutes to bloody catch it i aint in need of new pigeons it be legs im after darren preferably both the same length eric dear old eric was treating me to a few pigeons cause i was nearly always bottom of the sheet he stumped up aswell bless him eric had alot to deal with in his life much more than he ever admitted and he had me over a few times aswell the old so and so but i loved every minute of it you were a good friend to me eric and funny as you so made me laugh and you got me into a lot of trouble aswell like the time you turned up in the roughest pub in coventry thought you would have a pint before getting on the bus home dancing with ya sticks to the regae disco surrounded by drug dealers and women of the night hahaha godbless and look after you me old friend i think about you often and always with a smile

[andy Burgess]

It is or was never my intention to upset or denegrate anyone as I only added the word "opinion" as part of my post.

The intention was that I am dealing in facts and personal knowledge "wisdom" in what I have experienced in over 50 years in the sport.

If I can help the next generation with my experience then I will feel I have accomplished something.

We all have some part to play in this sport.

keep posting the "wisdom" , we "the next generation" are enjoying your knowledgable posts.

[Diamond dave]

Hey Peter P. - Can I take you back to your opening post and ask you to explain the purpose of Newcombes brother breding youngsters for him and the point you are making as I genuinely can't see what point you are making and want to understand your very thought provoking thread.

 

Thanks

 

DD.

[peter pandy]

I felt I had explained sufficiently enough in my original post however I will reiterate.

 

Are we to believe that to maintain a successful winning family one has to introduce strangers to change the blood ? and who discovered that pearl of wisdom. Many if not all have tried that by bringing in a stranger to our cost with no change in our fortunes, The alternative is to use your own birds by breeding them in a different environment and then returning them to their original. Costs NIL.

Tried and proven by Eddie Newcombe.

[peter pandy]

To continue with my post regarding the Blue Pied and Red Cock " see above ". The Red cock was left in the widowhood section and was given 5 races that year. True to form he never returned till the second morning between 6 & 8 and I had to sheepishly face C.J. who only laughed with I told you so, However I was not going to be proved wrong by the old codger and put the Red cock in the natural section for the following year. He paired up with a yearling Red hen and was set up for a Combine race where he would be racing to a 12 day youngster, All went well and he was sent with his first youngster of the year and starting to look at his hen.. 1st club, 2nd Fed, 3rd Combine the first time he had ever been clocked on the day. The previous week the Red hen he was paired to feeding a 6 day young was 1st club 3rd Fed.

When I started with C.J. he had a box of 25 Monte Cristo cigars in the cellar and for every decent result he gifted me a cigar. At the end of two years the box was empty.

Out of interest I sent the Red cock to Pau and he was back on the third day but I promised C.J. he would be on the result the following year. Alas it was not to be as C.J died a few weeks after the Y.B. National but we went out with a bang beating all those darkness young birds.

[billt]

Nice reading your posts Peter, you are obviously what I call a stockman, as a retired farmer I know there are men who can look at a flock of sheep and pick a good one, I think it is one of those gifts you are born with or not

[Guest darren cantrill]

excellent flying and motivation ive enjoyed the thread i have only ever scored upto the 300 mile point flying widowood and jealosy the the latter being the best for me.ive noticed in the few years ive been away from the sport that the middle to long distance races are becoming as competative as sprinting once was.when i take up the sport again this year im taking the last round of youngsters from the birds of my ex partners as agreed when we split the partnership they are sprint pigeons so hopefully i shouldnt be far behind in the club racing i want to race the distance aswell and here my knowledge on a personal basis is lacking i understand the preperation as far as nest timing and i understand the drawbacks of how far up the wing a bird should be what i am finding hard to grasp is the reasoning behind different peoples preperation each loft is slightly different in this approach is this because they fly hens and cocks or just one sex i.e some pair up earlier than others though i see they time it correct to how they want to send their pigeon why is there a difference is it because some people want younsters off these birds? secondly the feeding i know plays a great part in racing pigeons at all distances but to fly 500 miles i am confused by the different feeding routines i know its something that i have to try and try again at but when reading and asking people there thoughts no one has a rule of thumb to begin with do i break the birds down on arrival it would be appreciated if someone would give there routine and explain why. i kind of fear the distance not just because id get my *expletive removed* wupped im ready for that but when i do start again i dont want to let them birds down that i push to 500miles plus because i sent them illprepared for the job in hand and last but not least ive looked at all the studs louella etc and though i wouldnt disreguard them in future as the birds they have bought are the best as with most studs id like a loft full of them what id like to do is go to someone who wins out of turn with a small but consistant loft of pigeons someone who gets birds home from the distance and has no adverts to pay or agents im not trying to get birds on the cheap far from it id just rather pay the piper so to speak.i know others on here will also be interested in your thoughts and reasons why

[peter pandy]

When I started this post the heading was " ARE WE MISSING SOMETHING ". I have proved to myself that the longer a pigeon is not raced or trained as a youngster the stronger the homing instinct is. All my best and consistent 500 - 650 milers never saw a basket until they were at least 8 months old and in the yearling stage. I have like you Darren only recently taken the sport up again after a break of a couple of years due to circumstances with work however I never stopped thinking about them and mistakes I made in the past along with the successes. I have lost count of the many lofts I have been invited to or the thousands of pigeons I have handled BUT I always go back to the Seventies when I was fortunate to handle the pigeon that has been my yardstick since. The bird was a Blue Cock called " JOCK " twice 2nd OPEN SNFC Nantes 630 miles to Jock & Ann Grieve in Auchtermuchty Fife.

 

P.S. If memory serves me it was never raced as a youngster.

[Guest Tooshy Boy]