Paratyphoid Vaccines

[David_vet]

This year Colombovac Paratyphoid vaccine, fully licenced in the UK, became available again.

 

For the previous two years, when the vaccine was unavailable, I was obtaining by special import licence Chevivac S.

 

I would appreciate your thoughts before I speak to our Veterinary Medicines Directorate on the following:-

 

 

1. Is paratyphoid a problem?

 

2. In your opinion does vaccination help control it?

 

3. If you had a choice would you prefer a live vaccine or a dead vaccine?

 

4. Any specific reason for your answer to question 3.

 

 

Any thoughts or views will be appreciated.

 

Thanks, David

[Tony C]

Welcome David, Paratyphoid was discused on this forum at quite some length. This link to the thread will perhaps answer some of your questions http://forum.pigeonbasics.org/topic/16879-paratyphoid-can-it-be-stopped/page__hl__paratyphoid

[billt]

I haven't raced for a few years so my birds obviously don't mix and I never treat or have problems, so come on lads get your replies in and be helpful to the man who is trying to help us.

[Guest The main Mahon]

I had young bird sickness in 2008 and 2009 and it ruined both seasons, so in 2010 I decided to vacinate with Columbovac paratyphus vaccine (both young and old birds).

 

I had a completely trouble free 2010 season and the birds performed much better. Was it just a coincidence or a good vaccine that works? Who knows, however I will be using it as routine every season from now on.

 

Cheers.

 

Paul.

[OLDYELLOW]

This year Colombovac Paratyphoid vaccine, fully licenced in the UK, became available again.

 

For the previous two years, when the vaccine was unavailable, I was obtaining by special import licence Chevivac S.

 

I would appreciate your thoughts before I speak to our Veterinary Medicines Directorate on the following:-

 

 

1. Is paratyphoid a problem?

 

2. In your opinion does vaccination help control it?

 

3. If you had a choice would you prefer a live vaccine or a dead vaccine?

 

4. Any specific reason for your answer to question 3.

 

 

Any thoughts or views will be appreciated.

 

Thanks, David

to my knowledge it was the paramixovirus that became available again through comobovac not parathyphoid , and why use either vaccine without having parathyphoid diagnosed ??? both vaccines for parathyphoid have draw backs as only tackle specific strains and the live vaccine also passes on parathyhoid to healthy birds through the droppings

[Guest bigda]

a live vaccine, would be to harsh as the recover takes to long a time, and pigeons have work to do, not like pets so not to sure about it, thought was if they have it they can carry it, but would go with the dead one.

[David_vet]

Welcome David, Paratyphoid was discused on this forum at quite some length. This link to the thread will perhaps answer some of your questions http://forum.pigeonbasics.org/topic/16879-paratyphoid-can-it-be-stopped/page__hl__paratyphoid

 

Thanks for highlighting this thread. It will be very useful.

[David_vet]

I had young bird sickness in 2008 and 2009 and it ruined both seasons, so in 2010 I decided to vacinate with Columbovac paratyphus vaccine (both young and old birds).

 

I had a completely trouble free 2010 season and the birds performed much better. Was it just a coincidence or a good vaccine that works? Who knows, however I will be using it as routine every season from now on.

 

Cheers.

 

Paul.

 

An interesting observation, if you take one potential problem out of frame. The birds can often cope with other little challenges.

 

David

[David_vet]

to my knowledge it was the paramixovirus that became available again through comobovac not parathyphoid , and why use either vaccine without having parathyphoid diagnosed ??? both vaccines for parathyphoid have draw backs as only tackle specific strains and the live vaccine also passes on parathyhoid to healthy birds through the droppings

 

Quite correct, the PMV vaccine was also unavailable during the same period.

 

The use of the vaccines is to enable the development of immune memory. If your birds met PMV or Paratyphoid at some time during that year, then theoretically they will mount a quicker immune response and therefore suffer less. Neither vaccine is designed to prevent infection, only the development of clinical disease. There is usually in a reduction of spread of the infection as well.

 

Correct about the specificity of the paratyphoid vaccine. Pigeons only suffer disease when infected with the pigeon strain of Salmonella typhimurium. Pigeons like chickens can be infected with the majority of the remaining 2,300 + strains without blinking an eye. It is us that suffers from the diarrhoea and associated problems. So the vaccines protect against the strain that causes the problem.

 

Lastly, the live vaccines do not usually cause disease. pointless having them if they did.

 

Thank you for highlighting all these points.

 

David

[billt]

Quite correct, the PMV vaccine was also unavailable during the same period.

 

The use of the vaccines is to enable the development of immune memory. If your birds met PMV or Paratyphoid at some time during that year, then theoretically they will mount a quicker immune response and therefore suffer less. Neither vaccine is designed to prevent infection, only the development of clinical disease. There is usually in a reduction of spread of the infection as well.

 

Correct about the specificity of the paratyphoid vaccine. Pigeons only suffer disease when infected with the pigeon strain of Salmonella typhimurium. Pigeons like chickens can be infected with the majority of the remaining 2,300 + strains without blinking an eye. It is us that suffers from the diarrhoea and associated problems. So the vaccines protect against the strain that causes the problem.

 

Lastly, the live vaccines do not usually cause disease. pointless having them if they did.

 

Thank you for highlighting all these points.

 

David

What a shame you're not the resident Vet on this site

[sapper756]

What a shame you're not the resident Vet on this site http://forum.pigeonbasics.org/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

 

 

CORRECThttp://forum.pigeonbasics.org/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif

[David_vet]

a live vaccine, would be to harsh as the recover takes to long a time, and pigeons have work to do, not like pets so not to sure about it, thought was if they have it they can carry it, but would go with the dead one.

 

Interesting, having used both Columbovac paratyphus and Chevivac S. I would have said the opposite in my experience.

 

Carriers are a real problem and antibiotics will not sort that. regrettably this organism can live in the dust in a loft for months to years. reinfection is therefore likely.

 

Vaccination works over time because vaccinated birds will be more difficult to infect, reproduce smaller amounts of bacteria and so result in less contamination of the loft.

 

Over time, there are too few bacteria left to set up an infection so that to all intents and purposes, no problem. Well that's the theory anyway.

 

thanks for your comments.

 

David

[David_vet]

What a shame you're not the resident Vet on this site

 

So who is your resident vet - I probably know them

 

Regards,

 

David

[billt]

So who is your resident vet - I probably know them

 

Regards,

 

David

We don't have one on site

[jimmy_bulger]

mores the pity,do you want to volunteer david ;-)

[sapper756]

mores the pity

 

 

would be good for the site to have a resident vethttp://forum.pigeonbasics.org/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif

[Fly_caster]

would be good for the site to have a resident vet

 

Here Here !

[OLDYELLOW]

would be good for the site to have a resident vet

i already asked via pm lol :P im sure he'd be an asset to the site

 

So who is your resident vet - I probably know them

 

Regards,

 

David

hi there are no vets on site however we have a members recomended vets but if you wish to fill that role in im sure you would be welcomed by all , regards Mark

 

So who is your resident vet - I probably know them

 

Regards,

 

David

hi there are no vets on site however we have a members recomended vets but if you wish to fill that role in im sure you would be welcomed by all , regards Mark

[greenlands]

Am I correct in saying once you have vaccinated for paratyphoid you have to continue vaccinating every year,or can you vaccinate for say three years then stop without any ill/side effects ?

Lindsay.

[jimmy hamilton]

We have vaccinated our ybirds for the last few years and our widow cocks before the racing season not because we have ever had paratyphoid diagnosed but because we know that our birds may meet this in the race panniers and the should have a stronger immunity against it after vaccination so there fore it is one less disease that we have to worry about.This year we used chevivac

live vaccine and all birds were fine after vaccine no problems.We prefer to use live vaccine because it only requires one jab and also we think that it gives better protection.Our ybirds did get ybs this year but it wasn't bad and was gone after a few days.I know of several lofts in our area that suffer with paratyphoid and they constantly use antibiotics to try and control it and they also suffer heavy ybird losses .We don't loose many ybirds and we will continue to vaccinate our birds every year as we would prefer to vaccinate rather than use antibiotics on a regular basis.

Jimmy

[Guest IB]

As the other post says, there have been many discussion on here over the years on Salmonella, where some members have asserted that ‘the disease is rife in Britain’, ‘99% of pigeons throughout the world are infected’ - without providing evidence to support that. I asked DEFRA for the case figures for pigeons in England Wales and Scotland for the 5 years to December 2009 = 88, which suggested to me that the disease is not widespread in pigeons in Britain:-

 

Defra 29/1/10 : There is no evidence that would enable an estimate of the prevalence of infected lofts or individual birds to be made, so a suggestion that 'Salmonella infection is 'rife' in Britain's racing pigeons and lofts' cannot be supported, and Defra has no view on the likely prevalence.

 

On your question on preference for Live or Dead vaccine, I contacted the Institute of Animal Health at the beginning of the year about an item appearing on its Avian diseases webpage.

 

“Because of legislation leading to the discontinuation of the use of antibiotics and other drugs, we need to find alternative methods of control, including vaccination. There is increasing evidence that vaccination using live attenuated vaccines may select more virulent pathogens.â€

 

These are the replies I received on that specific subject:-

 

Q1 Please expand upon how a Live attenuated vaccine e.g. for Salmonella Typhimurium Copenhagen, might select more virulent pathogens?

 

This was intended as a general remark, rather than specifically to Salmonella vaccines for poultry. Live-attenuated vaccines against Marek’s Disease Virus have selected more virulent strains of the virus that escape vaccine-induced protein. It is possible that this may apply in other situations, though there is little evidence at present that Salmonella vaccines for poultry used under the Lion Code are driving the emergence of more harmful variants. Salmonella strains of varying epidemic and zoonotic potential are constantly emerging, and we do not fully understand why.

 

Q2 Is a Live attenuated vaccine, e.g. for Salmonella Typhimurium Copenhagen, likely to lead to shedding of this bacteria in the pigeons’ faeces? (Yes / No answer sufficient) (Related to Q17)

 

Vaccine efficacy cannot be predicted and experimental studies would be required to address this question.

 

Q3 If live attenuated Salmonella bacteria are shed into the environment in the pigeons’ faeces, is there any possibility of pathogenicity being restored to them e.g. through gene / islands / plasmid transfer with compatible bacteria within the bird’s gut, or within a closed environment like a race basket or pigeon loft containing other pigeons and their faeces? (Yes / No answer sufficient) (Related to Q17)

 

This depends to a large extent on the nature of the attenuating mutation. Point mutations can revert to the ‘wild-type’ whereas large deletions are unlikely to be repaired.

 

Q4 Is a Live attenuated vaccine, e.g. for Salmonella Typhimurium Copenhagen, capable of causing the disease e.g. in an immunocompromised bird? (Yes / No answer sufficient) (Related to Q17)

 

This depends on how attenuating the mutation is. Concern exists for attenuated Salmonella strains in human trials (e.g. for control of typhoid fever) that live vaccines may cause disease in the immunocompromised (e.g. HIV patients). DT2 and DT99 are host-restricted strains, therefore the likelihood of them appearing in humans after vaccinating birds is low.

 

Although some of replies were not specifically about pigeons this and other publications on the web about Live vaccines led me to understand that they were much more dangerous, they could be shed into the environment and under certain circumstances, cause the disease they were supposed to prevent.

[OLDYELLOW]

As the other post says, there have been many discussion on here over the years on Salmonella, where some members have asserted that ‘the disease is rife in Britain’, ‘99% of pigeons throughout the world are infected’ - without providing evidence to support that. I asked DEFRA for the case figures for pigeons in England Wales and Scotland for the 5 years to December 2009 = 88, which suggested to me that the disease is not widespread in pigeons in Britain:-

 

Defra 29/1/10 : There is no evidence that would enable an estimate of the prevalence of infected lofts or individual birds to be made, so a suggestion that 'Salmonella infection is 'rife' in Britain's racing pigeons and lofts' cannot be supported, and Defra has no view on the likely prevalence.

 

On your question on preference for Live or Dead vaccine, I contacted the Institute of Animal Health at the beginning of the year about an item appearing on its Avian diseases webpage.

 

“Because of legislation leading to the discontinuation of the use of antibiotics and other drugs, we need to find alternative methods of control, including vaccination. There is increasing evidence that vaccination using live attenuated vaccines may select more virulent pathogens.â€

 

These are the replies I received on that specific subject:-

 

Q1 Please expand upon how a Live attenuated vaccine e.g. for Salmonella Typhimurium Copenhagen, might select more virulent pathogens?

 

This was intended as a general remark, rather than specifically to Salmonella vaccines for poultry. Live-attenuated vaccines against Marek’s Disease Virus have selected more virulent strains of the virus that escape vaccine-induced protein. It is possible that this may apply in other situations, though there is little evidence at present that Salmonella vaccines for poultry used under the Lion Code are driving the emergence of more harmful variants. Salmonella strains of varying epidemic and zoonotic potential are constantly emerging, and we do not fully understand why.

 

Q2 Is a Live attenuated vaccine, e.g. for Salmonella Typhimurium Copenhagen, likely to lead to shedding of this bacteria in the pigeons’ faeces? (Yes / No answer sufficient) (Related to Q17)

 

Vaccine efficacy cannot be predicted and experimental studies would be required to address this question.

 

Q3 If live attenuated Salmonella bacteria are shed into the environment in the pigeons’ faeces, is there any possibility of pathogenicity being restored to them e.g. through gene / islands / plasmid transfer with compatible bacteria within the bird’s gut, or within a closed environment like a race basket or pigeon loft containing other pigeons and their faeces? (Yes / No answer sufficient) (Related to Q17)

 

This depends to a large extent on the nature of the attenuating mutation. Point mutations can revert to the ‘wild-type’ whereas large deletions are unlikely to be repaired.

 

Q4 Is a Live attenuated vaccine, e.g. for Salmonella Typhimurium Copenhagen, capable of causing the disease e.g. in an immunocompromised bird? (Yes / No answer sufficient) (Related to Q17)

 

This depends on how attenuating the mutation is. Concern exists for attenuated Salmonella strains in human trials (e.g. for control of typhoid fever) that live vaccines may cause disease in the immunocompromised (e.g. HIV patients). DT2 and DT99 are host-restricted strains, therefore the likelihood of them appearing in humans after vaccinating birds is low.

 

Although some of replies were not specifically about pigeons this and other publications on the web about Live vaccines led me to understand that they were much more dangerous, they could be shed into the environment and under certain circumstances, cause the disease they were supposed to prevent.

Good read IB

[David_vet]

Am I correct in saying once you have vaccinated for paratyphoid you have to continue vaccinating every year,or can you vaccinate for say three years then stop without any ill/side effects ?

Lindsay.

 

Assuming a loft is free of paratyphoid then the birds in it will be susceptible to infection. Vaccinating helps prevent the entrance of infection into the loft. So yes you should vaccinate each year until paratyphoid is eradicated from the national pigeon flock. Probably not going to happen in my lifetime!

 

david

[David_vet]

As the other post says, there have been many discussion on here over the years on Salmonella, where some members have asserted that ‘the disease is rife in Britain’, ‘99% of pigeons throughout the world are infected’ - without providing evidence to support that. I asked DEFRA for the case figures for pigeons in England Wales and Scotland for the 5 years to December 2009 = 88, which suggested to me that the disease is not widespread in pigeons in Britain:-

 

Defra 29/1/10 : There is no evidence that would enable an estimate of the prevalence of infected lofts or individual birds to be made, so a suggestion that 'Salmonella infection is 'rife' in Britain's racing pigeons and lofts' cannot be supported, and Defra has no view on the likely prevalence.

 

On your question on preference for Live or Dead vaccine, I contacted the Institute of Animal Health at the beginning of the year about an item appearing on its Avian diseases webpage.

 

“Because of legislation leading to the discontinuation of the use of antibiotics and other drugs, we need to find alternative methods of control, including vaccination. There is increasing evidence that vaccination using live attenuated vaccines may select more virulent pathogens.â€

 

These are the replies I received on that specific subject:-

 

Q1 Please expand upon how a Live attenuated vaccine e.g. for Salmonella Typhimurium Copenhagen, might select more virulent pathogens?

 

This was intended as a general remark, rather than specifically to Salmonella vaccines for poultry. Live-attenuated vaccines against Marek’s Disease Virus have selected more virulent strains of the virus that escape vaccine-induced protein. It is possible that this may apply in other situations, though there is little evidence at present that Salmonella vaccines for poultry used under the Lion Code are driving the emergence of more harmful variants. Salmonella strains of varying epidemic and zoonotic potential are constantly emerging, and we do not fully understand why.

 

Q2 Is a Live attenuated vaccine, e.g. for Salmonella Typhimurium Copenhagen, likely to lead to shedding of this bacteria in the pigeons’ faeces? (Yes / No answer sufficient) (Related to Q17)

 

Vaccine efficacy cannot be predicted and experimental studies would be required to address this question.

 

Q3 If live attenuated Salmonella bacteria are shed into the environment in the pigeons’ faeces, is there any possibility of pathogenicity being restored to them e.g. through gene / islands / plasmid transfer with compatible bacteria within the bird’s gut, or within a closed environment like a race basket or pigeon loft containing other pigeons and their faeces? (Yes / No answer sufficient) (Related to Q17)

 

This depends to a large extent on the nature of the attenuating mutation. Point mutations can revert to the ‘wild-type’ whereas large deletions are unlikely to be repaired.

 

Q4 Is a Live attenuated vaccine, e.g. for Salmonella Typhimurium Copenhagen, capable of causing the disease e.g. in an immunocompromised bird? (Yes / No answer sufficient) (Related to Q17)

 

This depends on how attenuating the mutation is. Concern exists for attenuated Salmonella strains in human trials (e.g. for control of typhoid fever) that live vaccines may cause disease in the immunocompromised (e.g. HIV patients). DT2 and DT99 are host-restricted strains, therefore the likelihood of them appearing in humans after vaccinating birds is low.

 

Although some of replies were not specifically about pigeons this and other publications on the web about Live vaccines led me to understand that they were much more dangerous, they could be shed into the environment and under certain circumstances, cause the disease they were supposed to prevent.

 

Thank you for this. DEFRA can only pass comment from information they obtain through their surveillance work. My impression was that when I first started talking with Fort Dodge about 20 years ago there was not a market for the vaccine. I do not recall seeing any cases either. The situation has changed, in my view, in that there is more of it about.

 

I thought it easier to ask those at the coal face. I would agree that perceptions can be dangerous and over the years I have been amazed at how many clients are only happy if their stock have the latest fashionable disease.

 

Already you are providing me with more food for thought than I had anticipated.

 

I am very grateful,

 

David

[OLDYELLOW]

Thank you for this. DEFRA can only pass comment from information they obtain through their surveillance work. My impression was that when I first started talking with Fort Dodge about 20 years ago there was not a market for the vaccine. I do not recall seeing any cases either. The situation has changed, in my view, in that there is more of it about.

 

I thought it easier to ask those at the coal face. I would agree that perceptions can be dangerous and over the years I have been amazed at how many clients are only happy if their stock have the latest fashionable disease.

 

Already you are providing me with more food for thought than I had anticipated.

 

I am very grateful,

 

David

theres a vast amount of good fanciers with good knowledge and ailments / diseases is where alot of experience is gained and been able to talk with a vet will help us all and also the vet with our findings , as you can see most try to find evidence rather than buy a cabinet full of medicines