Family face home loss over birds

[Guest]

If it does not comply with local planning law then it makes no difference what you, the union or the man in the moon says. And if its not down in the time they allocate then there is a charge per day after that date, and in the end they will remove it for you and charge you for the service and through the nose too I might add!

Planning Laws are there to be challenged Mark, remember, most of them aren't made by Lawyers but councillors, most who haven't got a clue what they are doing.  That's often what is exploited when an appeal is lodged because loopholes can be found in just about every law if your smart enough.  The tough issue on this one is the person isn't a member on here and the information we get is sketchy at best so offering help is not going to be anywhere near as effective as if we had all the facts at hand which include the entire planning laws for that particular council which I'm sure the victim must have a copy of?

 

 

[vanreets]

so if you do not have permisson you get fined  :-/

[Guest]

so if you do not have permisson you get fined  :-/

There are a number of penalties James, it depends on the council and the action they wish to take, its not unknown for someone to go to prison for breaking planning laws.

 

 

[vanreets]

yeah what i am saying is if say someone put up a loft with out permissin would they get asked to get rid and that would be it or will they get more stright a way

i know someone that got away with it for calling them doves lol

[Guest]

yeah what i am saying is if say someone put up a loft with out permissin would they get asked to get rid and that would be it or will they get more stright a way

i know someone that got away with it for calling them doves lol

It would depend on the bylaws of the particular region, most areas of the UK can't or won't stop you building a shed or loft but some might have bylaws in place to prevent 'nuisance animals', this is the law being used to get at the man the thread is about.  Doves are pigeons and there is no chance the person you knew got away with it because of the word dove instead of pigeon.     

 

Ultimately the saying is 'If in doubt, check it out'.  

 

 

[vanreets]

It would depend on the bylaws of the particular region, most areas of the UK can't or won't stop you building a shed or loft but some might have bylaws in place to prevent 'nuisance animals', this is the law being used to get at the man the thread is about.  Doves are pigeons and there is no chance the person you knew got away with it because of the word dove instead of pigeon.     

 

Ultimately the saying is 'If in doubt, check it out'.  

 

 

trust me he did because he has a few in a dovecote he or so said they were wild  

[Guest]

 

trust me he did because he has a few in a dovecote he or so said they were wild  

James, do you know the difference between a dovecot and a pigeon loft? :-/

 

 

[Guest Owen]

I am very disappointed that a lot of you are arguing the toss rather than getting behind vanlint. The Planning Laws this and the Planning Laws that. Suddenly, you are all lawyers. I don't think.

Vanlint suggested that we create a situation where we can employ the right people to deal with this sort of thing for us. A Professional.

He went on to suggest that we have the services of a properly trained person to deal with the RSPB propagander. And to see that racing pigeons is given a much better profile with the Public.

Now, what is wrong with that? You lot sound like a lot of geese cackling away. Surely if we are going to drag this Sport into the modern era we have to get together and make serious changes. I think we all know that, if we carry on as we are, the whole thing will grind to a halt.

The one thing that I assume we have in common is that we love the pigeons and enjoy the racing. So why are we messing about?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I would like to think that future generations will have the enjoyment I have had.

[showman]

There is no doubt that the planning regulations were breached, but do we simply accept that and go down without a fight !

Nay !! say I.

At this point I would like to express my thanks, especially to JarGre and Vanlink through PM's received, to all those who will support John in his future endeavours. There is I believe an old saying / adage.....' You're either for us, or against us '

I will leave it to you all to decide.

 

" ....But we in it shall be remembered

We few, we happy few, we band of brothers

For he today who sheds his blood with me

Shall be my brother, be he ne'er so vile,

This day shall gentle his condition;

And gentlemen in England now a-bed

Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,

And hold their manhood cheap while any speaks

That fought with us upon St. Crispins Day "

 

Paul.    

[Guest chrisss]

There is no doubt that the planning regulations were breached, but do we simply accept that and go down without a fight !

Nay !! say I.

At this point I would like to express my thanks, especially to JarGre and Vanlink through PM's received, to all those who will support John in his future endeavours. There is I believe an old saying / adage.....' You're either for us, or against us '

I will leave it to you all to decide.

 

" ....But we in it shall be remembered

We few, we happy few, we band of brothers

For he today who sheds his blood with me

Shall be my brother, be he ne'er so vile,

This day shall gentle his condition;

And gentlemen in England now a-bed

Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,

And hold their manhood cheap while any speaks

That fought with us upon St. Crispins Day "

 

Paul.    

 

henry v, very nice,but what is the full story behind this?,does anyone know this guy directly?,good luck to the poor bugger,councils tend to take that sort of thing personal

[showman]

Chrisss

Take a look back through the thread, you will see I know him personally, and the whole outline of the case is laid out

Cheers

Paul

[Guest]

Chrisss

Take a look back through the thread, you will see I know him personally, and the whole outline of the case is laid out

Cheers

Paul

As I said in p.m Paul, there is always a chance to exploit legal loopholes.  I ignore the cynical one's they don't always know what's going on, Owen happens to be one of those on this rare occassion but he's a well intentioned man, he just hasn't noticed that a lot is going on behind the scenes.   You know what's going on and can pass this info on to your mate, that's what is important not any of us playing barrackroom Lawyer.  For the record though Owen my son is legally qualified and very good at what he does, any advice I pass on is after consulting with him.  

 

[Guest IB]

Planning Laws are there to be challenged Mark, remember, most of them aren't made by Lawyers but councillors, most who haven't got a clue what they are doing.  That's often what is exploited when an appeal is lodged because loopholes can be found in just about every law if your smart enough.  The tough issue on this one is the person isn't a member on here and the information we get is sketchy at best so offering help is not going to be anywhere near as effective as if we had all the facts at hand which include the entire planning laws for that particular council which I'm sure the victim must have a copy of?

 

I think you are away off-beam here, JarGre. Laws are made by Central Government who decide who apply them, and in this case it's a Local Government executive service, the planning service. Councillors don't make laws, they are representitives of local people, council tax payers, and they feed their constituents views into Council policy, and represent them in Council matters. They have no authority to grant planning permisiion, allocate housing or take folk to court. And this fancier has the same access to his local Councillor and the planning service as those neighbours who complained about the loft going up.

 

It is the council's legal department - qualified lawyers, experts in that field - which has taken the case to court, and the Magistrate has agreed with their case and found against the fancier.

 

Now whether you agree with it or not, that is the current position, and the next step is the fancier's lawyer appeals the decision to a higher court, or he moves home which the court has agreed time for him to do. If he does neither, he risks a fine or imprisonment or both. Remember that it has taken 8 years to reach this stage. I honestly do not see what else can be done that would not have been done during these last 8 years.

[Guest]

 

I think you are away off-beam here, JarGre. Laws are made by Central Government who decide who apply them, and in this case it's a Local Government executive service, the planning service. Councillors don't make laws, they are representitives of local people, council tax payers, and they feed their constituents views into Council policy, and represent them in Council matters. They have no authority to grant planning permisiion, allocate housing or take folk to court. And this fancier has the same access to his local Councillor and the planning service as those neighbours who complained about the loft going up.

 

It is the council's legal department - qualified lawyers, experts in that field - which has taken the case to court, and the Magistrate has agreed with their case and found against the fancier.

 

Now whether you agree with it or not, that is the current position, and the next step is the fancier's lawyer appeals the decision to a higher court, or moves home. If he does neither, he risks a fine or imprisonment or both. Remember that it has taken 8 years to reach this stage. I honestly do not see what else can be done that would not have been done during these last 8 years.

I beg do differ mate, I don't play barrackroom Lawyer and never state anything I don't know I can support with fact.  I consult my son on everything legal as he's the one qualified not me.  In this instance its you whose way off beam here mate and I mean that with respect.  

 

 

[showman]

 

 

So far,any action has been, and will be at Magistrate court. When they make another ruling in Feb 2010 (see previous posting) it is then that any appeal will be heard at County court. It is then something more can be done (see previous posting)

Sincerely

Paul

[Guest IB]

I beg do differ mate, I don't play barrackroom Lawyer and never state anything I don't know I can support with fact.  I consult my son on everything legal as he's the one qualified not me.  In this instance its you whose way off beam here mate and I mean that with respect.  

 

 

You are not speaking to a lawyer, barrack-room or otherwise. You are speaking to a lay person, a member of the administrative support  to my local Council's legal team [20 solicitors]. I am not a lawyer, but I know first hand local Government structure and procedure.  What you said in the post I replied to wasn't factual, you inferred councillors made laws, and because of that they were easily overturned on appeal. You may also have raised false hopes that this case could be overturned on that basis. You are way off-beam there, and with respect, your son wouldn't be long in correcting your view.

[Guest]

 

You are not speaking to a lawyer, barrack-room or otherwise. You are speaking to a lay person, a member of the administrative support  to my local Council's legal team [20 solicitors]. I am not a lawyer, but I know first hand local Government structure and procedure.  What you said in the post I replied to wasn't factual, you inferred councillors made laws, and because of that they were easily overturned on appeal. You may also have raised false hopes that this case could be overturned on that basis. You are way off-beam there, and with respect, your son wouldn't be long in correcting your view.

Clearly I'm not speaking to a Lawyer, and with the greatest of respect I'm not so sure you know much about this aspect of the local councils remit, although I do stand to be corrected?   Not wanting to get into competition with you or anyone else I'll simply point you to http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/360902/byelaws/localgovernmentlegislation/ which tells you that local authorities can create and enforce local bylaws.  The Councillors run the council, not the solicitors?  The councillors thus make the decisions on behalf of its constituents and this includes by-laws, they then make applications to Central Government for whatever bylaw it is they want passed to be approved http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/localgovernment/application.  Now perhaps I'm wrong but I don't think so and I am certainly not raising false hopes as you suggest, and for the record I have asked my son who told me what to post.

 

My apologies go out to you Paul as the original poster for this thread almost going off tangent but its nature for people to have different levels of knowledge and you'll always have someone disagree with one or another.  Mine isn't to know more than the next man but to offer advice to people if I can, but I only ever offer this advice if I'm fairly confident I'm correct.   There is always hope, and the one thing with the law in the UK and Northern Ireland is that it is very often flawed unless it is precident based which becomes stronger as time passes.   With by-laws they are very often not well thought out and can be weak and subject to interpretation by the higher Courts so in a nutshell there is definately hope even if faint.

 

As stated IB, this is not meant as an insulting response to you and I hope you understand that we have to agree to disagree on times, if I'm wrong I'll be the first to apologise but I don't think I am after seeking advice.  Perhaps in your position as support to your team of Lawyers you could ask their advice on this issue?  

 

[Guest]

Put it on wheels,and tell them to ...........off .

[showman]

I can assure you JarGre...no apology needed !!

When it comes down to it any interested parties have little time to get our act together and pass on to John any advice or legal facts we can possibly muster. I suppose I'm slightly biased in that I have known John, Michael and Annette for years through the N.I. Show Racer Society, but I really do want us to at least show a bit of solidarity with fellow fanciers who at the moment are going through Hell on earth in order to keep their beloved birds. I mean, think of it, these people would have to give up their family home,and re-locate, and what for ?........their pigeons !!

Sincerely

Paul

[robbiedoo.]

when i moved in to my present adress the first thing i did was build a loft for my pigeons . my next door neighbour being a snot complained to the council about them next thing i knew after weeks of phone calls and letters telling me to take my loft down and get rid of my pigeons which i refused to do . next letter i got was one threating me my wife and 1 year old daughter with evection from our house . what i did was phone the head guy from the council from my area and ask him to come round to my house to see me which he did . when he came round to my house after i put my point across to him i said go on then go out and kill all my pigeons thats the only way you,ll get rid of them because i,m not doing it the only other option you,ve got is take the loft down and the pigeons will stay on the house roof its your call he said leave it with me that was 13 year ago and never heard a squeak since . touch wood  

[Guest Owen]

I see your still at it. The only legal opinion that is worth a second look is an informed one from a qualified person who actually involved in the case. No disrespect intended but not all lawyers are the same. Some specialise in one thing and others specialise in something else. I have found from bitter experience that no-one can afford to take any lawyer at face value. And I definately would not take much notice of their family members.  If you use one to represent you, you have to take charge and make the decisions yourself. And I have found that if you want the best chance in Court you will have to provide the basic information for the Lawyer to use on your behalf. Lawyers are only any real use if you use their knowledge to help you with the points of law. If anyone thinks that they are like anything you see on the tele, you are making a big mistake. They are very much like most of the Vets. Greedy and lazy most of the time. And I say that from personal experience.

Well now that everybody has had the chance to show how clever they are, can we get back to suporting vanlint and his ideas.

[cemetary]

when i moved in to my present adress the first thing i did was build a loft for my pigeons . my next door neighbour being a snot complained to the council about them next thing i knew after weeks of phone calls and letters telling me to take my loft down and get rid of my pigeons which i refused to do . next letter i got was one threating me my wife and 1 year old daughter with evection from our house . what i did was phone the head guy from the council from my area and ask him to come round to my house to see me which he did . when he came round to my house after i put my point across to him i said go on then go out and kill all my pigeons thats the only way you,ll get rid of them because i,m not doing it the only other option you,ve got is take the loft down and the pigeons will stay on the house roof its your call he said leave it with me that was 13 year ago and never heard a squeak since . touch wood  

 

Hope you dont get a letter in the morning Robbie,  ;D ;D ;D ;D

[robbiedoo.]

its normaly chucky letters i get cem. ;D ;D

[cemetary]

its normaly chucky letters i get cem. ;D ;D

 

Why not put it the correct way mate, DEBT, we are all in the same boat,  ;D ;D ;D ;D

 

 

[showman]

Why hi-jack , what I see as a very serious thread.....If you want to have some banter and a joke, try phoning John and see if he thinks it's all funny

 

Paul